[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
No, I knew precisely what he meant, because he meant the same thing that people like that always mean. His subsequent comments are extremely pertinent because they support my assertion. You don't just get to dismiss them, that's not how logic or debate actually works.
[/quote]
I do get to dismiss any further developments because I was speaking of his original comment and I still pointed out the flaws your arguments contained when attacking his later comments which you quote mined. I can quote mine too but that doesn't make my argument right.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Yes, there are two sides to every story. One is generally wrong.
[/quote]
And without evidence there's no use coming to conclusions as you are with The Chantry.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
How about the relatives of mages? How about anyone who's had cause to visit the Gallows for even five minutes?
[/quote]
None of these people in the game mentioning seeing their son/daughter/sister/brother raped and beaten before their eyes. When you first visit the Gallows all you see is a bunch of mages standing about with Templars looking on.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Meredith does everything she can to keep the Gallows sealed off from the rest of the world and there are still rumours all over Kirkwall. The only way Elthina could've failed to hear them is if she was literally deaf. She's had a million reasons to call for a thorough investigation into Templar activities, and she never once did her job. She's willfully ignorant. She sweeps the problems under the rug and blocks her ears.
[/quote]
That's why the player can freely enter the Gallows whenever they want? Half of the refugees who came from Fereldan seemed to have past by the Gallows considering Hawke does and then we have those mercenaries and the smugglers all hanging about out there. Yeah that sure is sealed off from the rest of the world! Elithina is an example of someone trying to look for a middle ground. She simply never steps it. Does that mean she deserved to be blown to bits along with everyone else in The Chantry? No.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
As I said before, the past doesn't matter, it is perfectly obvious that elves are being abused and oppressed
now.
[/quote]
By who? The Chantry? As far as I remember it was some nobles who take The City Elf's fiancee hostage to rape her and not Mother Hope. Half the people who use the slur "knife ears" aren't part of the Chantry either. So any oppression and abuse going on right now isn't to do with the Chantry but rather with racism.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Merrill's clan died because they were stupid enough to attack me. That's their own damn fault. Merrill didn't use blood magic to make them impale themselves on Hawke's sword. They had the power to make their own choices, they have only themselves to blame.
[/quote]
Nevertheless stuff like that happens when you get a blood mage among your ranks. Would that have happened if Merrill didn't decide to investigate dark magic? No. Dark magic leads to demons and death and that's why the Templars are needed to prevent stuff like this happening in the future.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
The term "apostate" is meaningless unless you follow the Andrastian faith. Why should Dalish Elves like Merrill or Velanna, or atheists like Morrigan be forced to subscribe to a faith they do not believe?
[/quote]
An apostate is a mage who is not part of the Circle of Magi and therefore the term does apply to Merrill, Velanna and Morrigan.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Mages are obviously not as dangerous as you or the Chantry claim. They were overthrown easily enough and have been subjugated for a millenium.
[/quote]
They were otherthrown due to an uprising yes just like the Chantry has been otherthrown due to an uprising too.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Blood Magic is not inherently evil, I do not subscribe to the notion that turning to blood magic equates to being evil or irresponsible or untrustworthy.
[/quote]
So demons aren't evil? Demons are the embodiment of everything that is bad. You have the lust demons, sloth demons and rage demons. All seek to harm everything within the physical world. Blood magic consists of making pacts with these creatures. Yes it is evil. Is a blood mage evil? Not necessarily but the demon is and blood magic consists of cutting oneself or draining blood from another to produce magic. Yes it's evil. Blood magic often leads to the death of many through sacrifice and then demons get unleashed from the fade.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Prove that would've happened. Prove it right now.
For that matter, prove that Connor was even using Blood Magic. Raising the Dead is not a spell in the Blood Magic school. Being possessed by a demon does not automatically mean he was using Blood Magic.
[/quote]
But likely it does. What other magic would that demon be using? What he was using was necromancy which is another school of evil magic. If you abandon Redcliffe and let it be destroyed, the NPC's who once populated it will be resurrected as undead which you will have to fight. Is that good and holy? That's the opposite. That's defilement.
Redcliffe is my example of one town being destroyed by one person. It only takes one mage who is dabbling in the dark arts to produce that much chaos.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
You would know, because you met every single free mage in Thedas and took a survey, right?
"What activity occupies most of your free time?
A) Fleeing from templars and starving to death.
Living a quiet life so as not to draw attention.
C) Making blood pacts with demons and sacrficing virgins in your quest for immortality."
There could be hundreds and thousands of free mages in Thedas sitting at home, minding their own business and you would never know,
because they are minding their own business.
[/quote]
Yet all the free mages we meet happen to be blood mages so call that what you will. Perhaps there are BILLIONS of Templars in other places in Thedas defending weak old ladies and prescribing good treatment to mages. Have you surveyed them all? See the logic in your argument now? I could easily say that the bad Templars you meet in DA2 are just a pinch of sand when compared to the entire Templar force.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Wynne let a spirit into her body. Was she foolish?
[/quote]
Yes. Just like she was foolish to stand in my way before I killed her.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Anders spent seven years of his life living in a sewer, healing the poor and homeless while searching for a peaceful solution and trying to be a positive example for magekind. He wasn't even trying to "stop" the Chantry, he was trying to convince it to change its ways by
handing out pamphlets. Truly, he is a monster. He deserves to be put down mercilessly like a common Jehovah's Witness.
[/quote]
Yes but that was until he started killing Templars and proving that they were right when the spirit-turned-demon inside him started to take control of him.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
[quote]You saw what happened in Origins with Connor. Just one mage being free can cause the deaths of many.[/quote]
One mage being free can also save countless lives. Arguing potential is pointless. By your logic, we should abort every baby because it might be the next Hitler. We should end research into nuclear energy because it might cause us to make more powerful weapons. We should stop trying to cure cancer because we might accidentally unleash a zombie plague. We should never go outside because we might trip and fall headfirst into traffic and then a bus will swerve to avoid us and plow into a daycare, killing all the children inside.
[/quote]
Mage healers can be used anyway. They don't need to jumping about free outside Halo style to heal the sick and injured. Your following counter argument suggests that every human has the power to be the anti-christ. They don't. Each and every mage however has the power to unleash a powerful demon into the world however hence why someone needs to watch over him. Or are you forgetting that them just being in the Fade can lead to a demon taking over their body?
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Do
you know the history of the templars?
What the hell happened to "there are two sides to every story and I won't accept either one without solid proof"? Or does that whole argument just fly out the window when it concerns a side that you're already biased against?
[/quote]
Yes I do know the history of the Templars. It's on Bioware's blog:
http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/ [quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Demi-gods that go down with one shiv in the kidney?
[/quote]
No. Demi-gods...actually forget that. They're pratically vessels to demons which can wipe out entire towns and villages.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Why
should mages use their powers for good in a world that hates and fears them by default?
[/quote]
So the world hated them before The Chantry?
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
They proved themselves over and over again by serving their country in war. They provide magical goods and potions through their stores. They're an
incredible asset to a society that does nothing to deserve these benefits and actually advocates their mistreatment. If all the mages in the world banded together and scorched the continent of Thedas until no life remained, it would be nothing less than what the people deserve for willingly living in a society based on kidnap and slavery.
[/quote]
Kidnap and slavery which exists in the mage run Tevinter Imperium.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
You don't know anymore about the
actual history of Thedas than I do, you've just decided one version is correct because it lines up with your precoceived bias.
Let's forget that in the
legends and myths of Thedas, magic is said to be plentiful. Let's forget that it waned for centuries and has only in recent years started to increase again. Let's forget that mages are now a disenfranchised minority. Let's forget that the entire culture of Thedas has shifted and an entirely different religion from the one that spawned the Imperium has been in power for the past millenium. Let's forget every single variable that doesn't support your argument that "free mages = hell on earth".
Let's
especially forget that I never claimed to be advocating total mage "freedom" in the first place.
[/quote]
And let's forget that every free mage we see is more harmful to society than beneficial and let's forget that the current Tevinter Imperium is still as bad as ever and let's forget that even mages in the Circle practice blood magic and let's forget that free mages outside the Circle believe that a mage is free to learn any magic that they want.
Your argument is invalid. What was going on in the past Imperium is still going on today.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
No, in both games, the definite majority of people you encounter try to kill you. That's simply how games works.
[/quote]
That's mobs that you refer to. Most of the mage NPC's who appear friendly happen to be blood mages.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Well, for starters, the myths and legends of Thedas state almost explicitly that blood magic was originally the
only kind there was. The elves claim that their ancestors in Arlathan used it all the time and taught it to the humans. The humans claim it was learned direct from the Old Gods. Either way, there was no other way to fuel magic until they discovered lyrium, which came later.
Assuming that a large number of abominations existed prior to the formation of the circle (and I am not conviced this is the case), possession and abominations are not necessarily linked to blood magic. They are not necessarily linked to magic
at all. Lady Harimann was possessed by a Desire Demon despite possessing no magical ability. Templars in the Fereldan Circle Tower were possessed enmasse
despite being specially trained for just such a scenario.
[/quote]
So blood magic being the only magic at that time makes it alright? I don't even understanding while you're using a book named "MYTHS and LEGENDS of Thedas" to support your argument. What we observe in game and in the actual agreed upon history is that having mages run wild without any Templars about leads to terrible consequences.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Demons are attracted to
strong emotions, particularly fear, and to power of
any kind (poltical, physical, magical, or a combination of any of these). It is a known fact that an otherwise innocent mage can be spontaneously possessed by a demon in a moment of great fear. Like, say, if they're about to be dragged away from their family and never see them again, or if they're about to be raped by someone who is supposed to be protecting them, or if they're about to
undergo a test that might kill them.
Why, it's starting to sound like the current system is not an ideal set up for the nurturing of emotionally stable individuals! Funny that!
[/quote]
It is also a known fact that a mage visiting the Fade can be possessed by a demon and other mages who desire more power make pacts with demons. Before The Chantry existed, mages weren't getting dragged away from their home so that doesn't give them any excuse as to why they would learn blood magic or practice dark arts.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
I didn't say the Circle needed to be destroyed. Obviously mages need to be educated. What I am saying is that it should not be overseen by an organization that preaches zealous hatred of magic as a core tenet of its faith.
Would you entrust the protection of black children to the KKK? No? Then why are you giving mage children to the Chantry?
[/quote]
Looks like you're trying to imply like I've said things which I haven't. I never called The Circle of The Chantry and their systems perfect and I have stated several times that these things need to be reformed. I am simply arguing against your "free mages theory" because I have already proved that mages running free leads to more chaos and death than what The Circle has been responsible for. The reason for The Circle in Kirkwall being so strict and run by a maniac was because of how many blood mages there were operating within the city.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Even if chaos existed prior to the formation of the Chantry (once again, I don't believe this), that does not mean that the Chantry
specifically was needed. Any sufficiently powerful organization could do the job. Or hell, we could just let individual countries handle it the way
they see fit. There are a billion other ways it could go.
[/quote]
What other organization then? It would have to be one dedicated to keeping mages in control and that's what the Circle was formed for. Again, here's Bioware's blog on the Templars and what existed before The Chantry came:
http://blog.bioware....nd-the-coterie/ It seems to suggest that the Templars (or Inquisition as they were known back then) were more ruthless in their battles against abominations, cultists and blood mages but they existed and they existed because there were ruthless mages running about too. If mages (according to you) were sitting down and drinking cups of tea peacefully before the Chantry formed then why did we have Inquisitors (who weren't part of the Chantry or their faith) running about at that time?
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
They obviously
don't want to live in peace. They do everything they can to make sure a peaceful coexistence can never happen. The Chantry uses mages as scapegoat for everything wrong with society in Thedas, in order to distract people from the fact that their real problem is, in fact, The Chantry itself.
[/quote]
In your bias mind that is so but not in reality because we observe Templars and priests in both Dragon Age games who respect mages. We even have mages who agree that the Circle is needed. Perhaps I can use your logic and say that mages don't want peace and that they want to rule the world with an iron rod.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
You missed my point. If everyone in Tevinter was a normal human being, it would still be a horrible place, because it is founded on horrible ideals. The presence of mages is
irrelevent. If there was no magic, the Tevinter leaders would just use traditional methods of murder and corruption.
[/quote]
Tevinter was founded on worship of the old gods and magic.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
They support a system founded on slavery. That they ignore massive injustices in favour of correcting minor ones does not speak in their favour.
[/quote]
How is The Chantry founded on slavery? Or are you referring to the Circle. That's not slavery.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
"What's that? Institutionalized bigotry and rape in my own workplace? No time for that, I'm afraid, I have to help this child find a lost puppy!"
[/quote]
Yes because that was going on in Dragon Age: Origins when blood mages were destroyed the Circle in Fereldan and letting demons eat their flesh and consume their bodies.
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
"Corrupt" implies that the Chantry was ever
good. It is founded on bigotry, it can never produce anything but bigotry.
Mages are just ordinary people who have been given an extraordinary gift.
[/quote]
The Chantry was founded on Andraste's teachings which weren't bigotry. She never spoke against the elves (whom she joined to revolt against your blessed holy mages) and she never said anything about treating mages badly. She simply said that MAGIC exists to SERVE man and not to RULE over him. I see no use of the word "mage" or "slave" or "kill" do you? This is why the current Tevinter Imperium doesn't have mages in Circles and while they have made blood magic illegal, according to the lore, a great many mages in the Imperium practice blood magic moreso than anywhere else. Is this coincidence or once again proof - among the many evidences - that a Circle is needed?
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
There is nothing "simple" about it. The Chantry is flawed at root. The only way it can be adequately "reformed" is if it somehow admits that its core beliefs are
wrong, and it agrees a) to change them and
relinquish its political power. That's not going to happen, so the only option is to force the change through violence.
[/quote]
And what are the core beliefs? That magic shouldn't rule man?
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry needs to be destroyed because it is a bad
system that produces bad people
deliberately. It teaches Templars and ordinary citizens to hate mages, it teaches mages to hate themselves and their gift, it teaches humans to hate elves.
[/quote]
No it doesn't and you're blatantly lying now because the evidence is against you. Sure there are SOME bad priests who teach these things but I don't remember many priests in Dragon Age: Origins who said that elves should be treated badly and hated and that mages should be hated along with them. Have you even read any Codex entries related to the Chant of Light because there's no verses that say these things.
I don't think you understand what corruption is do you?
[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
I never said the Circle needed to go away. I never said the Templars needed to go away.
The
Chantry needs to go away. It should not be in charge of the Circle, it should not be in charge of the Templars. It should not be in charge of anything.[/quote]
Then you should have said so originally. Your logic is still flawed however because even without the Chantry running the Templars or the Circle, do you think things would be better? Mages would still be imprisoned and their imprisonment has nothing to do with the Chant of Light but rather with how dangerous they can be if they let a demon inside them.
There would still be Templars who rape mages and abuse them. There would still be corruption.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...
They are apostates though. Meanwhile Merrill learnt blood magic which led to the death of her whole clan proving the necessity of a Circle. Then we had Zavthrin in Origins who - likewise - abused his magical powers resulting in numerous deaths of elves in his clan. The Chantry have no respect for mages running loose and amock simply because of the repercussions that this often causes. There's few free mages that you encounter in DA2 that aren't blood mages.[/quote]
The clan only dies if they try to commit cold-blooded murder. That isn't Merrill's fault. Marethari's actions resulted in the confrontation. I'm not sure how you can argue it's an example in support of Chantry-controlled Circles.[/quote]
Merrill still caused it. She caused Marethari's death however you look at it.
Retour en haut