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[Eternal Phoenix]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She didn't let it into her body. She was dead for several minutes. It brought her back to life. She didn't have a say in the possession.
[/quote]

That's my mistake then. I haven't played Origins for a year and I only had one playthrough from two years ago where Wynne actually survived. I intended to let her survive in another one but when I said I was going to kill all the blood mages in the Circle she got in the way just before the final fight with Uldred. So her not having a say in the matter was a detail forgotten by me and I do offer my sincere apologies. However I now don't see what it has to do with demonic/spiritual possession. Anders let Justice - who later became Vengeance - into his body by his own free-will and the repercussions of that choice led to the deaths of many and ultimately to the whole mage vs templar stand off.

In fact it was probably Vengeance who inspired him to violently act against The Chantry and blow it up. Any sane person would take the fight to the actual building the mages are held in. Any sane person would attack the people raping and abusing the mages. However a person who blames The Chantry for everything and sees them as being responsible for the crimes of the templars would easily make the mistake of taking vengeance out against the ones who have nothing to do with the crimes of the templars.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

1)Mistress Selby's relative was made Tranquil when she was never anything but a good and loving person.

2) Some of the nobility will state that they have children in the Circle and that many mages aren't evil.

3) Ser Alrik was illegally using the RoT on Mages, and this apparently went unnoticed despite the fact that all Tranquilizations are to happen with the approval of both the First Enchanter and Knight Commander -- per DAO's Mage Origin, where records are kept of who was made Tranquil.

For number 3, either Meredith was deliberately allowing Alrik to commit his plan despite her previous "No" to his grand master plan -- which could've been done just to save face with Kirkwall, not because she didn't approve of it -- or she's so incompetent it's not even funny.

Or she just didn't give a rat's ass.

[/quote]

1) What's this got to do with outsiders seeing abuse? Likely the templars came up with an excuse as to why her relative was made Tranquil. I doubt she actually witnesses beatings and rape.
2) Again what has this got to do with outsiders seeing abuse?
3)Again what has this got to do with outsiders seeing abuse?

Meredith hated mages with a burning passion. So it's obvious that she would ignore many of the injustices that occured within The Circle but once again this is irrelevant to outsiders.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Only the section that's specifically operated by the merchants and shopkeeps.
[/quote]

Exactly, so if Hawke - The Champion - can't enter into the actual building until Act 3 then how could Tom, Dick and Harry enter and see mages being raped and tortured?

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
That was done to get an accounting of all the refugees. It was an Ellis Island type of thing. And they were still only allowed to explore the area the Merchants were operating out of and the pathway that led to the dockside area.
[/quote]

Exactly, so if Hawke - The Champion - can't enter into the actual building until Act 3 then how could Tom, Dick and Harry enter and see mages being raped and tortured? 


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...  
The middle ground is removing Meredith and her like-minded cronies from the Templar Order and reforming the Templars to be both stern and fair.

Not overzealous, paranoid, and filled with hatred towards Mages.
[/quote]

Perhaps that's what she wanted. Perhaps she was too scared to act against Meredith.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...   

As the quickest method. Not as the only method.

The Warden Commander can ask the Baroness to teach him/her blood magic. At the time, he/she still believes the Baroness is just a Mage. By requesting to be taught blood magic from a mage, that points to being able to learn it from other mages sans contact with demons.

That he/she were in fact taught by a demon is irrelevant. The idea wouldn't have been proposed if Demons were known to be the only method of learning it.
[/quote]

But just because The Warden can ask doesn't mean that it's possible. The fact that the Baroness was a demon is relevant because unless you have evidence of a real mage teaching blood magic then your point is simply speculation. Even if your argument is true that still says blood magic is evil because the only way the mage would be teaching it would be through the teachings of the demon. Regardless of who gives it to who, blood magic had its origin from an inherently evil source and even blood magic spells are evil in nature as most of them focus on drawing blood from allies to power a spell.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...    
No it's not. Removing blood from the body in a safe way doesn't constitute an evil act. If it did, blood banks would be evil.

Hell, ignore blood banks. If extracting blood in a safe way was evil, then the phylacteries the Circle uses would be evil.

Not that slashing your wrists is safe, but if you were to extract blood from your body in a safe way -- cutting your palm slightly for instance. Or taking vials and vials of your own blood -- then it wouldn't be evil.

The magic isn't evil. It's not good either. It's a tool.
[/quote]

But no mage does slash their palm slightly. All of the blood mages slash their wrists or impale themselves with their own staves. Meanwhile - as far as I recall from Origins - some blood magic spells could even drain the blood of allies just to power the user. No matter how you look at it blood magic is evil. The fact that it traces its origin back to demons is testament of that. Tart it up all you want, it's still evil simply due to that one fact.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...    
Demons don't use the dark arts to summon their kind.

And neither Jowan nor Connor used blood magic to cause what happened in Redcliffe. The demon made a pact with Connor in the Fade.

If it was summoned to the real world, then you wouldn't have been able to enter the Fade to kill it.
[/quote]

Whatever it was still the result of a mage making a pact with a demon and the consequences prove my point.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...    

Yes and no.

Tevinter was both reviled and praised by its citizens. Some hated the Mages, others loved the Mages.

We don't have much lore on ancient Tevinter to draw more on how they felt then that.
[/quote]

Regardless, the Inquisition must have been formed for a reason. It wasn't to battle Tevinter as that had already fallen by the time of their formation and they weren't part of The Chantry so the most logical reason to their formation was that mages were running wild.

 [quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...    

Yes it is. They are forced to live in the Circles against their will -- and I'm willing to bet many develop Stockholm Syndrome as a result of it being not their choice.
[/quote]

Slavery is being forced to work. Not being in prison. They are imprisoned inside the Circle. They are NOT forced to work.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...    
And I'm willing to bet the Chantry has perverted that phrase. I take it to mean more of what Malcolm Hawke said and what the Tevinter Imperium claims they do with their magic.

I don't fully support Mages in politics -- it's the person that should be judged, not how he was born. But I'm willing to say they shouldn't be a part of it ever -- but the Imperium claim their magic should be used to help the populus.

That's what I support. Using magic to help the populus -- meaning Spirit Healers as doctors and Mages doing similar professions.
[/quote]

So do I but to have no Templars would lead to no control against potentially unstable individuals.


[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...    
They do have Circles. They do train their Mages.

They also enslave them in worse ways then the White Chantry, but they do have Circles.
[/quote]

They actually rule.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...     

Yes.

[/quote]

Well as someone pointed our earlier, rape and abuse are not exclusive to The Chantry or Templar order. Some templars do it because they can. Likewise if you gathered some knights and put them in charge the abuse would likely continue. That's how prisons function and that's exactly what the Circle is.

Which is why I AGREE with those who say that The Circle needs to be reformed. The Chantry needs to be more tolerant of magic and there's no reason why they can't be because The Chant of Light doesn't speak about persecuting mages and preventing magic. Templars are still needed to make sure blood magics and abominations are dealt with and mages need to be taught how to use their spells. The Circle itself shouldn't be a prison but rather a teaching ground where all the mages must go. Meanwhile the Templars can still keep track of mages (with their blood) but they're just not imprisoned anymore.

I'm hoping DA3 allows for a middle ground where we can give the mages more freedom but not total freedom. Meanwhile the Templar order (or whoever will be responsible for the mages now that the Templars and Seekers have split from The Chantry) will be composed of people who don't hate magic.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 juin 2012 - 03:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Fantasy.

Mages cannot have freedom. They MUST be locked up and remina locked up for the sake of everyone.
Certain changes could be made when it comes to how exactly the place is run, but mages should NOT be allowed to roam free.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Fantasy.

Mages cannot have freedom. They MUST be locked up and remina locked up for the sake of everyone.
Certain changes could be made when it comes to how exactly the place is run, but mages should NOT be allowed to roam free.

If DA world was like 'Harry Potter' world, we could see every several decades a Dark wizard lord appears to enslave and abuse everyone and ruin the world (inside magic school and beyond) ... even with surveillance of sort of magic ministry (order).

[Melca36]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

Exactly like every real-life religions: pointless and a waste of humanity.

Exactly. I feel nothing for them. They basically want to convert everybody to Andrastian. Its my hope that Andraste is revealed to be a mage.

Same here!

Thirded

Was there ever any doubt that she was?

Im looking forward to seeing the faithful quiestion their beliefs and the Chantry losing some of its power over all the secrets they kept. They deserve to be knocked down a few notches.

And the revelation that Andraste was a mage would be icing on the cake.

[TEWR]

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

In fact it was probably Vengeance who inspired him to violently act against The Chantry and blow it up. Any sane person would take the fight to the actual building the mages are held in. Any sane person would attack the people raping and abusing the mages.[/quote]

He did.

Repeatedly. He was a part of the Mage Underground which would routinely break into the Gallows, kill Templars, rescue Mages, and watch as said mages kiss the ground through the sewage.

It was always one victory to 15 losses (illustratively speaking). It wasn't doing much.

And had he blown up the Gallows, that would've been worse. Because then he'd end up killing the mages as well as the Templars, but not give the Mages a reason to fight for their lives -- if they didn't have one already due to the atrocities they suffer.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

1) What's this got to do with outsiders seeing abuse? Likely the templars came up with an excuse as to why her relative was made Tranquil. I doubt she actually witnesses beatings and rape.
2) Again what has this got to do with outsiders seeing abuse?
3)Again what has this got to do with outsiders seeing abuse?

Meredith hated mages with a burning passion. So it's obvious that she would ignore many of the injustices that occured within The Circle but once again this is irrelevant to outsiders.
[/quote]

1) Mistress Selby was allowed to meet with her relative before and after the RoT was performed. She knows that her relative was abused -- not specifically rape and torture, but by neutering her very soul -- and thus sees firsthand what some of the good and pious mages endure. Just because the Templars give a reason for justifying it doesn't mean that reason was the truth.

2) Rich families are able to meet with their children in the Circles. They too would be able to see what goes on. They might see a Mage with a black eye or a limp. They might see a Mage that was anything but evil suddenly turned Tranquil. Leandra and Gamlen are able to meet with Bethany, IIRC. And this was prior to Hawke's being named the Champion.

3) Anders found out about his plan. He told Hawke. Hawke and company saw him about ready to perform it. Bethany will write in a letter about how Ser Alrik is, quite simply put, a creep that takes his position too far.

It's entirely relevant. Outsiders will often see their relatives coming to them, after fleeing the Circle, in a state of weakness. They'll be injured by the Templars' lashings, half-starving, about ready to collapse.

You don't always need to be in the Circle to know what goes on there.

[quote]
Exactly, so if Hawke - The Champion - can't enter into the actual building until Act 3 then how could Tom, Dick and Harry enter and see mages being raped and tortured?
[/quote]

Rich families can see their children or relatives.

And to be fair, even despite how limited Hawke can go into the Gallows, he can still hear someone being beaten if he approaches a gate.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Perhaps that's what she wanted. Perhaps she was too scared to act against Meredith.
[/quote]

She's the one with direct authority over Meredith. If she was scared of her, she would've acquiesced to her desire to Annul the Circle for the lulz.

If she was scared of her, she wouldn't have been so confident when telling her to return to the Gallows.

She wasn't afraid, and I see no indication in-game that she ever desired to remove Meredith from power -- stemming from how overwhelmingly oblivious she is to the facts of the matter, stating she can't turn against the Templars for fear, no matter how justified that fear is.

Which is wrongfully assuming that by removing Meredith and her like-minded cronies from the Templars she is not turning against them. She would still be supporting the Circle, the Templars, and allowing the Mages to benefit from her actions even if publicly she doesn't take their side -- but does in fact take actions that benefit their existence.

[quote]But just because The Warden can ask doesn't mean that it's possible[/quote]

He wouldn't have asked if there wasn't a basis for it.

[quote]. The fact that the Baroness was a demon is relevant because unless you have evidence of a real mage teaching blood magic then your point is simply speculation[/quote]

No. It's irrelevant. We're talking about what the Warden was operating under the assumption of, not what she actually was.

Because he assumed she was just a mage, he asked to be taught blood magic. Had this never happened before in history -- and indeed, if Demons were the only source of blood magic -- then he would never have asked such a question.

Fact: The arcane is eternal in the Fade, as evidenced by Torpor's comments on the rarity of seeing two forgotten magicks in one day.

Fact: Anders will ask Merrill if she accidentally cut herself and found out about blood magic that way, implying that there are other, non-demonic ways of learning blood magic.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Whatever it was still the result of a mage making a pact with a demon and the consequences prove my point.

[/quote]

It's not as simple as that. Had Jowan not been hired by Loghain to poison Eamon, that pact would never have occurred. That pact happened because Eamon was -- to all the eyes around him -- on his deathbed.

They discovered Jowan was poisoning Eamon and imprisoned him. Shortly afterwards -- and due to Jowan no longer being able to tutor Connor -- Connor made a deal with the demon to keep Eamon alive. Indeed, Jowan had only just begun to teach Connor before he was imprisoned by Isolde -- which doesn't mean he couldn't have still taught Connor, but Isolde didn't seem to allow it.

The fact that Jowan stayed in prison rather then escape -- because a cell door can't be melted, or the hinges frozen and destroyed -- should've told her something about his character

All that this shows is that 1) there were other circumstances that contributed to a barely educated mage making a deal with a demon and 2) the Circle as an educational institution is necessary.

It doesn't show that Mages must be locked up their entire lives.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Even if your argument is true that still says blood magic is evil because the only way the mage would be teaching it would be through the teachings of the demon. [/quote]

No.

If a mage was taught blood magic by a demon -- for the sake of argument -- because it was the quickest means, that doesn't mean that all further educations on how to perform blood magic require the apprentice mage make a deal with a demon as well.

And the way I took it, the knowledge on how to perform blood magic is automatically instilled into the Mage's brain through such a deal, not that the demon actually makes you take Blood Magic 101 in the Fade, giving you a lecture on what it wants you to do and what it doesn't want you to do.

And indeed, that's exactly what happens with the Desire Demon in Redcliffe. It's not because it's what they're teaching you, it's because the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- as Torpor showed us through his comments.

Remember, there are conflicting sources on the origins of blood magic: Some say demons, others say the Old Gods, while others still say the Elves of Arlathan knew it long before humans did.

Indeed, Dragons are known to employ blood magic (see Awakening's Dragon battle). Would they have to make a deal with Demons too, to learn of such an art? Doubtful.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

The fact that it traces its origin back to demons is testament of that. Tart it up all you want, it's still evil simply due to that one fact.

[/quote]

And what if I wanted to learn Force Magic but didn't want to go to the Kirkwall Circle? What if I asked a Demon to give me the knowledge on how to perform it?

Does that make the entire school of magic evil, just because of where I was taught it and whot taught it to me?

No it does not. As I've said three times now, the arcane is eternal in the Fade -- evident by Torpor's remarks.

I am not "tarting" it up. It's a fact that blood magic has both benevolent and malicious usages. The phylacteries, the Joining, arguably the Reaver Joining, the extension of a Warden's life to be 200 years rather then 30, the cleansing of tainted objects, and there's a Mage in one of the comics that uses it for good causes as well.

If you focus on where you learn something rather then how you apply what you learned, then it's easy to label such things as evil.

But it will always be wrong.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

But no mage does slash their palm slightly. All of the blood mages slash their wrists or impale themselves with their own staves. [/quote]

Well, yea.

Though the impaling part is hopefully exaggeration on the part of Bioware for the Rule of Cool effect, because no one could really live through such a thing in battle -- let along stand up straight.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't safer methods to practice blood magic.

Just that they're never used.

Although to be fair, IIRC Alain slashed his palms and not his wrists.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Meanwhile - as far as I recall from Origins - some blood magic spells could even drain the blood of allies just to power the user. [/quote]


Yes, some abilities let you use your allies' blood. But it's to heal yourself, not power the spells. And while you can use the blood of everyone else as a substitute for your own, that falls into the "Is the person evil" area and not the "Is the magic evil".

It can be used for evil purposes, but it is not inherently evil. It can be used for good purposes, but it is not inherently good.

It's grey. It's a tool. It's not a sentient being, and as such cannot act on its own.

Regardless, I'm not arguing that it should be made legal. I'm opposed to it, simply for the propensity for it to be abused by the Mages -- which makes the Mage evil, not the magic.

I'm arguing against this foolish notion that because of where something is learned -- due to it being the quickest way -- it's automatically evil.

Fact: The Chantry stamped out blood magic. No doubt tomes on how to learn the subject sans demons were gathered up and burnt in a fire, wherein Mages would have to turn to demons if they wanted to learn it quickly.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

So do I but to have no Templars would lead to no control against potentially unstable individuals.

[/quote]

Who here is arguing that the Templar Order should be eliminated entirely? Who? I have seen no such claim made -- nor have I made such a claim -- so why are you bringing this up?

It needs reform. It needs to go to a system where they are recruited for their morality, not their overzealous faith based on twisted perceptions of preachings. They need to be both stern and fair, not like Meredith, Alrik, or Karras where they all see Mages as.... well... less then people.

Even Cullen is bad in this sometimes, calling Mages weapons, ignoring how they are people that think and feel, eat and sleep, and everything else.

See here for my ideas on how the system would ideally be reformed.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

They actually rule.
[/quote]

1) That's due to Tevinter having a longstanding history of Mages being able to be in the realm of politics, such that the idea of that never left the minds of its natives.

2) I wasn't saying they don't rule. I was just contesting the notion that they have no Circles because they rule.

3) White Chantry Thedas has a different view on the matter then Black Chantry Tevinter. They abhor slavery, have it written as law that Mages cannot be involved in politics (though this is more often then not broken, usually in Orlais), and so on and so forth.

There are two different mindsets here: One where it's okay for the Mages to be involved in politics which would lead to a second Tevinter -- and that's probably due to people like Tarohne rising up the ranks, with no psychological exams to weed out the potential Magister imitators from the noble mages like the Warden-Commander or Hawke.

The second is one where it's not okay for Mages to be involved in politics, be nobles, etc.

Freedom doesn't automatically lead to a second Imperium. Mages were free for a century or two prior to the creation of the Circle -- but after the Inquisition formed into the Templar Order -- and the Imperium didn't rise again.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Well as someone pointed our earlier, rape and abuse are not exclusive to The Chantry or Templar order. Some templars do it because they can. Likewise if you gathered some knights and put them in charge the abuse would likely continue. That's how prisons function and that's exactly what the Circle is.[/quote]

While it's unfortunate that it happens elsewhere, we're dealing with the issue of Mages. That it happens elsewhere is not an excuse for it to happen to the Mages.

First we tackle the most dangerous occurrence of rape: in the Circles. This leads to psychological damage which Demons may prey upon, and then the Templars will use that as further justification for their attitude.

And it doesn't work that way.

We have to do our best to eliminate it from happening in the Circles before we tackle it happening to the Elves, Humans, Dwarves, etc.

One step at a time.

And no, the Circle isn't a prison. Prisons are places where people are punished for crimes they committed in life by their own choosing, not for what they may do based upon a genetic anomaly.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Which is why I AGREE with those who say that The Circle needs to be reformed. The Chantry needs to be more tolerant of magic and there's no reason why they can't be because The Chant of Light doesn't speak about persecuting mages and preventing magic.[/quote]

Yes it does. And I hold out hopes that Divine Justinia V will be the one to reform both the Chantry and Circles.

But I'm afraid that while the Chant doesn't support persecution and abuse of mages, it will always be interpreted as such and there's nothing in place to keep a future Divine from rescinding such reform policies, based on her own twisted interpretation.

[quote]Templars are still needed to make sure blood magics and abominations are dealt with and mages need to be taught how to use their spells. The Circle itself shouldn't be a prison but rather a teaching ground where all the mages must go. Meanwhile the Templars can still keep track of mages (with their blood) but they're just not imprisoned anymore.

[/quote]

Agreed. I'd also add that magical research into Demons is necessary so as to devise more and more methods of dealing with them. And as a note, demonology is not the same as blood magic. A blood mage can be a demonologist, but a demonologist is not automatically a blood mage -- despite the Chantry's efforts in the past to conflate the two.

And very safely controlled academic study of blood magic -- and if need be, incredibly controlled practical usage of it -- so as to devise more countermeasures against the horrific usage of it.

Adralla was a Mage that studied the academic theories of blood magic and devised the Litany of Adralla. No reason why you can't have a select few mages who are shown to be like Jowan and Merrill in terms of morality doing the same thing.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

I'm hoping DA3 allows for a middle ground where we can give the mages more freedom but not total freedom. Meanwhile the Templar order (or whoever will be responsible for the mages now that the Templars and Seekers have split from The Chantry) will be composed of people who don't hate magic.

[/quote]

It won't get to that point. DA3 will end with the Qunari invading and the Templars will be forced to acquiesce to the Mages' demands on a reformed Circle -- with the possibility of (limited) freedom -- so as to work together and avoid Thedas falling under the Qun.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
1) Mistress Selby was allowed to meet with her relative before and after the RoT was performed. She knows that her relative was abused -- not specifically rape and torture, but by neutering her very soul -- and thus sees firsthand what some of the good and pious mages endure. Just because the Templars give a reason for justifying it doesn't mean that reason was the truth.

Which is irrelevant.
Being a good and pious mage is irrelevant.
And just because the templars give a reason you do not like, doesn't mean it was lie eithrr.

It's entirely relevant. Outsiders will often see their relatives coming to them, after fleeing the Circle, in a state of weakness. They'll be injured by the Templars' lashings, half-starving, about ready to collapse.

WUT? What do oyu think the Circles are? Gulags?

Man, you lost all credibiltiy when you go into crazy conspiracy mode.
Starving? Lashing?

Seriously, are we talking about the same setting?

It's not as simple as that. Had Jowan not been hired by Loghain to poison Eamon, that pact would never have occurred. That pact happened because Eamon was -- to all the eyes around him -- on his deathbed.

Life gives plenty of opportunitites for demons. You think Eamon or someone else close to Connor wouldnt' have fallen ill or died sooner or later?

It doesn't show that Mages must be locked up their entire lives.

Actually it does. No matter how well you teach them, they still fall. They still use blood magic, they still fall prey to demons. And when they do, even a small child like Connnor can be the death of an entire village/town.

It can be used for evil purposes, but it is not inherently evil. It can be used for good purposes, but it is not inherently good.

It's grey. It's a tool. It's not a sentient being, and as such cannot act on its own.

It's inherently CORRUPTING.
Hence, why it's off-limtis.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's entirely relevant. Outsiders will often see their relatives coming to them, after fleeing the Circle, in a state of weakness. They'll be injured by the Templars' lashings, half-starving, about ready to collapse.

WUT? What do oyu think the Circles are? Gulags?

Man, you lost all credibiltiy when you go into crazy conspiracy mode.
Starving? Lashing?

Seriously, are we talking about the same setting?

Apparently, it really is that bad. There are horror stories flying around this forum. Funny how most of them seem to be under Meri-death rather than Greagoir, though.

For something I personally can point towards... Ser Alrik. Who seems to have been in a position of authority, since Karl's tranquility happened under his orders, not Meridith's. (Remember that this was before she got that statue of insanity.)

It's not as simple as that. Had Jowan not been hired by Loghain to poison Eamon, that pact would never have occurred. That pact happened because Eamon was -- to all the eyes around him -- on his deathbed.

Life gives plenty of opportunitites for demons. You think Eamon or someone else close to Connor wouldnt' have fallen ill or died sooner or later?

Well, natural illness might have waited until Connor could handle it. (I don't think I remember hearing his age, but I'd be surprised to learn it was double digits, much less teens.) At any rate, natural illness is curable, either because it goes away on it's own, or because of magic. (Which was tried on the poison.)

That is, however, a good reason for the Circle: get kids who can't control their emotions reliably into an establishment that's supposed to provide them an artificially stable environment. (Uldred doesn't help much, and from what I understand, neither do a lot of Meridith's men.)

It doesn't show that Mages must be locked up their entire lives.

Actually it does. No matter how well you teach them, they still fall. They still use blood magic, they still fall prey to demons. And when they do, even a small child like Connnor can be the death of an entire village/town.

It seems to depend on the mage, actually. In Da:O, at least. Kirkwall, on the other hand, is noted to be a much easier place for magi to go astray. The Codex actually provides a reason why, namely that it is basically one big demonic summoning ritual. (That's not Anders' excuse, since I think that happened entirely before he came to Kirkwall.)

It can be used for evil purposes, but it is not inherently evil. It can be used for good purposes, but it is not inherently good.

It's grey. It's a tool. It's not a sentient being, and as such cannot act on its own.

It's inherently CORRUPTING.
Hence, why it's off-limtis.

Well, Jowan seems to have kept his moral center, more or less. The poisoning isn't exactly moral, but he does willingly put his neck on the line to make up for his actions. As for why he did it in the first place, Loghain told him Eamon was a threat (apparently Loghain believed it too, but that isn't relevant except that it would have made him more convincing) and offered to make his (capital) crimes go away in exchange for this extra-legal favor. If I'm being honest, I probably would have taken that offer.

As for the inherently corrupting part, apparently Word Of Gaider is that the magic involved isn't inherently corrupting, it just leads to delusions of grandeur thanks to the increased power. (Apparently, he posted this to explain why a Warden or Hawke using blood magic doesn't neccesarily go insane, though I certainly played that Warden as a complete monster.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 juin 2012 - 03:02 .

[KotorEffect3]

If the Chantry were more like what Lelianna or Sebastian claim it to be than it would be alright but it's not. Not only do they do some obvious wrongs (preach intolerance, subjugate mages) but they threaten and try to silence anybody that might stand against them. The reason why the Dalish have to wonder around making them the Quarians of Thedas is because of the Chantry and their handy dandy exhalted march against the Dales because the elves would dare follow their own beliefs and customs instead of what the chantry demands.

[TEWR]

double post.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 04:23 .

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which is irrelevant.
Being a good and pious mage is irrelevant.

It goes to state of mind. She was a gentle and generous person -- I misremembered. Mistress Selby says gentle and generous, not pious -- meaning she must've been able to keep her emotions in check.

The Templars claimed she was a danger. And given Kirkwall's Circle's nature where it's primarily comprised of heartless bastard Templars, I'm more inclined to believe it was a lie, based on the firsthand knowledge given to us about Mistress Selby's sister by Mistress Selby herself, who knew her sister very well.

I'm sure that if her sister truly was a danger, Mistress Selby would've seen it during her interactions with her prior to the Tranquility.

Or if a Templar like Ser Thrask, Ser Emeric, or Keran said she really was a danger, then I'd believe it. If Cullen even stated it, I'd at least consider it likely because he's not ruthless or heartless. Just oblivious and occasionally a dick.

It'
WUT? What do oyu think the Circles are? Gulags?

Man, you lost all credibiltiy when you go into crazy conspiracy mode.
Starving? Lashing?

Seriously, are we talking about the same setting?

First, I was specifically referring to Kirkwall's Circle in that section. That was what I was discussing with Elton John is dead*. In fact, that's exactly what I was talking about. Everything I had stated in that section of my post was in regards to Kirkwall.

Second, it does happen. If you play A Noble Agenda, you come across a Templar group that is ready to execute a woman for feeding her half-starved and beaten cousin who had just escaped from the Circle.

And that same Templar was willing to kill the Champion if the Champion wanted to arrest Mage supporters that surrender to the Templars, instead of executing them. That Templar wanted them dead, despite the fact that they surrendered.

But of course, the Templars can't possibly abuse those damn mages!

*underlined and italicized so the name can be read and it doesn't look like there's a grammar fail.

Life gives plenty of opportunitites for demons. You think Eamon or someone else close to Connor wouldnt' have fallen ill or died sooner or later?

Irrelevant speculation.

At any rate, I'm not saying Connor should never have been taught by the Circle. I found Isolde to have done a stupid move, even if I can understand where she's coming from.

It's a hard thing for a loving and caring mother to watch her son grow up from afar, with no input from her. Even harder if there is a risk -- and there's always a risk -- that he'll be made Tranquil, killed, abused, or possessed.

It's an argument for reform, not for the state of the Circles that we saw prior to the revolution.

And I mean all the Circles, Ferelden's and Kirkwall's included. Ferelden's carries everything I just now stated -- children being raised away from families, risk of death, possession, or Tranquility, and abuse.

Actually it does. No matter how well you teach them, they still fall. They still use blood magic, they still fall prey to demons. And when they do, even a small child like Connnor can be the death of an entire village/town.

No it doesn't.

The Mages' Collective has several free mages that enforce the Chantry's own laws amongst their group.

You focus on the blood magic, but never what drives some Circle mages to even turn to it. Sure some turn to it for power, but others turn to it for other reasons that have nothing malicious about them. Some may run away from an oppressive Circle -- Kirkwall or Starkhaven -- and are hounded for it, and so they turn to it for survival and only survival.

It's inherently CORRUPTING.

Because Jowan and Merrill were corrupted by it! They're the most evil blood mages of them all!

Or Malcolm Hawke, when he used it! He was immediately turned evil!

Hell let's ignore all the good blood magic can do -- trap Darkspawn, create Wardens, create frickin' phylacteries, etc. -- and just call it evil for the hell of it!

Hence, why it's off-limtis.

Did I say I wanted it to be made legal? NO. I said it's not inherently evil. I'm arguing the morality of blood magic, not the legality of it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 05:43 .

[Bail_Darilar]

I have mixed feelings, I hate the preachy nature of the chantry and how they feel the need to exert themselves onto other people. I hate them for leading an exalted march against the elves because they were 'heathens'. I hate the exalted marches full stop. I hate the idea that alot of the higher-ups have very much of a holier-than-thou attitude, I hate how they feel they hae thie divine authority to shackle people. I like that on the lower levels of the organisation like in villages and towns they are alot more into helping people, I like some of the kindest people you meet in the game are in the chantries. Yeah so mainly negative, but thats because I strongly dislike their real life counterpart... the Catholic Church.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
WUT? What do oyu think the Circles are? Gulags?

Man, you lost all credibiltiy when you go into crazy conspiracy mode.
Starving? Lashing?

Seriously, are we talking about the same setting?

Apparently, it really is that bad. There are horror stories flying around this forum. Funny how most of them seem to be under Meri-death rather than Greagoir, though.

Well, those horror stories belong in the fanficton section.

Life gives plenty of opportunitites for demons. You think Eamon or someone else close to Connor wouldnt' have fallen ill or died sooner or later?

Well, natural illness might have waited until Connor could handle it. (I don't think I remember hearing his age, but I'd be surprised to learn it was double digits, much less teens.) At any rate, natural illness is curable, either because it goes away on it's own, or because of magic. (Which was tried on the poison.)

MIGHT have waited. Big might. And why do you assume every ilnesss of problem is curable? That is never stated anywhere.
Also, there are far more things than simple ilness that provide enough temptation for demons to get an anchor.
The entirety of human existence is a giant demon buffet.

Actually it does. No matter how well you teach them, they still fall. They still use blood magic, they still fall prey to demons. And when they do, even a small child like Connnor can be the death of an entire village/town.

It seems to depend on the mage, actually. In Da:O, at least. Kirkwall, on the other hand, is noted to be a much easier place for magi to go astray. The Codex actually provides a reason why, namely that it is basically one big demonic summoning ritual.

But you can't tell.
Mages keep falling for all kinds of reasons. Even those that have been tought, know the dangers and passed the harrowing.
You can't tell which one will fall and which one won't, anymroe that you can tell which guy coming fron point zero is infected with a killer desease and which on isn't. You can only lock all of them up.

It's inherently CORRUPTING.
Hence, why it's off-limtis.

Well, Jowan seems to have kept his moral center, more or less.

For now. Remeber, he's new to this.
Corruption isn't instant 1/0 binary state. It acts slowly.
It always starts in small steps.

As for the inherently corrupting part, apparently Word Of Gaider is that the magic involved isn't inherently corrupting, it just leads to delusions of grandeur thanks to the increased power. (Apparently, he posted this to explain why a Warden or Hawke using blood magic doesn't neccesarily go insane, though I certainly played that Warden as a complete monster.)

Mind control is inherently coprrupting.
It's the most tempting, dangerous and abusable power of all and there is no man or woman under th sun that can be trusted with it.

[TEWR]

Well, those horror stories belong in the fanficton section.

Oh please. You can hear people being beaten in the Gallows, a Tranquil mage will remark that she gets lashings for just talking with customers, and A Noble Agenda shows us that a commoner fed her half-starved and beaten cousin.

And you're saying it's all fanfiction?

Buddy, now you're the one whose credibility is shot.

Oh and let's not ignore Anders' statements that the rape and torture of Mages happened in Ferelden, Alrik, Karras, and the entire RoA that was called down on the Mages for an act they had nothing to do with.

EDIT: So it was just a normal Mage. But I could swear the Tranquil shopkeep says something too.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 07:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Which is irrelevant.
Being a good and pious mage is irrelevant. [/quote]

It goes to state of mind. She was a gentle and generous person -- I misremembered. Mistress Selby says gentle and generous, not pious -- meaning she must've been able to keep her emotions in check.

The Templars claimed she was a danger. And given Kirkwall's Circle's nature where it's primarily comprised of heartless bastard Templars, I'm more inclined to believe it was a lie, based on the firsthand knowledge given to us about Mistress Selby's sister by Mistress Selby herself, who knew her sister very well.

I'm sure that if her sister truly was a danger, Mistress Selby would've seen it during her interactions with her prior to the Tranquility. [/quote]


Gentle and generous is irrelevant. Having he willpower and other attributes necessary to resist demons is what matters.
You cna distrust the templars al lyo uwant, but being a nice person and being strong-minded are two COMPLETELY unrelated things.
Also, Mistress Selby doesnt' know jack s*** about demons or beign a mage, so she would also know jack s*** about her sister being dangerous.



[quote]
Second, it does happen. If you play A Noble Agenda, you come across a Templar group that is ready to execute a woman for feeding her half-starved and beaten cousin who had just escaped from the Circle.[/quote]

So you assume the Circle was starving him?



[quote]
But of course, the Templars can't possibly abuse those damn mages![/quote]

They can, but such things are isolated incident that happen in places where no one looking.
Perfect oversight doesn't exist.
It's not liek a dirty cop couldn't beat the living snot out of you in some secluded place.






[quote][quote]
Life gives plenty of opportunitites for demons. You think Eamon or someone else close to Connor wouldnt' have fallen ill or died sooner or later?[/quote]

Irrelevant speculation.[/quote]

no, very relevant.



[quote]
It's a hard thing for a loving and caring mother to watch her son grow up from afar, with no input from her. Even harder if there is a risk -- and there's always a risk -- that he'll be made Tranquil, killed, abused, or possessed.

It's an argument for reform, not for the state of the Circles that we saw prior to the revolution.

And I mean all the Circles, Ferelden's and Kirkwall's included. Ferelden's carries everything I just now stated -- children being raised away from families, risk of death, possession, or Tranquility, and abuse.[/quote]

And those risks re inherent with being a mage. Life sucks.
A reform in that regard is pointless.



[quote][quote]
Actually it does. No matter how well you teach them, they still fall. They still use blood magic, they still fall prey to demons. And when they do, even a small child like Connnor can be the death of an entire village/town.[/quote]

No it doesn't.

The Mages' Collective has several free mages that enforce the Chantry's own laws amongst their group. [/quote]

And they suck at it horribly. And mages in the open STIL cause widespread death and destruction.

The MC is useless. Pointless. BY the time they react (if they react at all) it's usually far too late.

A reactionary force to demon possesion is in tself a loosing battle.



[quote]
You focus on the blood magic, but never what drives some Circle mages to even turn to it. Sure some turn to it for power, but others turn to it for other reasons that have nothing malicious about them. Some may run away from an oppressive Circle -- Kirkwall or Starkhaven -- and are hounded for it, and so they turn to it for survival and only survival.[/quote]

They will turn to it Circle or no circle. Have done so before. Will do so again.



[quote][quote]
It's inherently CORRUPTING.[/quote]

Because Jowan and Merrill were corrupted by it! They're the most evil blood mages of them all! [/quote]

Give them time, they are both new to this.




[quote]
Hell let's ignore all the good blood magic can do -- trap Darkspawn, create Wardens, create frickin' phylacteries, etc. -- and just call it evil for the hell of it![/quote]

I guess you can call that blood magic...technicly. Altouhg it's not really the same thing. No even close.



[quote]
Did I say I wanted it to be made legal? NO. I said it's not inherently evil. I'm arguing the morality of blood magic, not the legality of it.
[/quote]

And I said that it's inherently corrupting and TOO tempting. So much that no living man or woman can resist it indefinately.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Bail_Darilar wrote...

I have mixed feelings, I hate the preachy nature of the chantry and how they feel the need to exert themselves onto other people. I hate them for leading an exalted march against the elves because they were 'heathens'. I hate the exalted marches full stop. I hate the idea that alot of the higher-ups have very much of a holier-than-thou attitude, I hate how they feel they hae thie divine authority to shackle people. I like that on the lower levels of the organisation like in villages and towns they are alot more into helping people, I like some of the kindest people you meet in the game are in the chantries. Yeah so mainly negative, but thats because I strongly dislike their real life counterpart... the Catholic Church.

The exhalted marches are a source of a lot of confusion.
Different acounts as to what happened. If you belive the human version of events, the dalish had it coming.

[Spicen]

I HATE THE CHANTRY

[TEWR]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So you assume the Circle was starving him?
[/quote]

Considering she had just escaped from the Circle, yea!

EDIT: Correction. The Mage was a she.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, Mistress Selby doesnt' know jack s*** about demons or beign a mage, so she would also know jack s*** about her sister being dangerous[/quote]

Point. It went straight over your head.

If her sister was truly a danger to herself, it would've been evident during their meetings prior to the Tranquility. Her sister would've acted like it, even if Selby couldn't deduce at that point that she was a danger.

And then she would've told Hawke that, in retrospect, she could see how the Templars thought that because of how she was acting.

But she doesn't say anything of the sort, which leads me to believe that her sister was a fine mage and that the Templars illegally made her Tranquil. We know this does happen in Kirkwall, so I see no reason to believe that Selby's sister wasn't the victim of Alrik's or someone like him.

All I'm saying is that, more then likely, it was illegal. Or possibly even what led up to it -- meaning abusing a Mage so much they turn to blood magic, and then the Templars use that as justification for further crimes.

I'd say that my theory is the more likely, since we hear about illegal Tranquilizations many times over and ruthless Templars being the majority of Kirkwall's Order, rather then legal Tranquilizations or seeing many good Templars.

Hell, if there was proof that it was authorized by both the KC and the FE, I'd concede. Because that's how all Rites of Tranquility are to be performed. They need the approval of the head honchos of the Circle, based on DAO's Mage opening where Lily saw the writ authorizing Jowan's impending RoT. It bore Gregoir's signature and Irving's seal.

Kirkwall's were carried out by Alrik illegally. As such, no paperwork exists.

Which also means that Meredith had to have taken notice at the number of Tranquil mages popping up without her approval. And she either: A) didn't care, let it continue, or C) took part in it.

You can't fail to notice crap like that. You just can't. You'd have to be an idiot to not notice it.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They can, but such things are isolated incident that happen in places where no one looking.
[/quote]

Not in Kirkwall, where it happens routinely and both Mages and Templars will remark that prior to Meredith's ascension to Knight-Commander the Circle was a better place to live.

Hell, in the comics it's shown that in Ferelden's Circle Gregoir beat a pregnant woman. And that's irrefutable canon, unfortunately.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's not liek a dirty cop couldn't beat the living snot out of you in some secluded place.

[/quote]

And whose word do you think would be taken as the truth: A Templar's or a Mage's?

Because let's face it, Mages are looked upon and their word is worth less then ****.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Perfect oversight doesn't exist[/quote]

Doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to achieve it -- however impossible that may be -- or something damn near close to it.

And that's why the Mages are rebelling. Better -- but more importantly, fairer -- oversight, more freedoms (however limited they may be), and a better way to ensure they are looked at as people rather then tools to be conveniently thrown away.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And those risks re inherent with being a mage. Life sucks.
[/quote]

Yes their life is pretty crappy. But that doesn't mean that magical research shouldn't be performed, demonology shouldn't be practiced, and that the system should be reformed to such a degree where those threats are minimal and rarely happen.

[quote]A reform in that regard is pointless.
[/quote]

In what? Tranquility? Divine Justinia V would beg to differ.

In what? Possession? Wilhelm would beg to differ.

In what? Reforming the Circle to not abuse mages? Again, Divine Justinia V would beg to differ.

But sure, it's pointless. Why do it at all? Mages aren't people. They're just weapons.



[quote]And they suck at it horribly. And mages in the open STIL cause widespread death and destruction.[/quote]

They wouldn't have to be so secretive if they didn't have to fear for their lives.

But I'd say indirectly taking down a cabal of maleficarum, having an entire regiment of Templars on their side, and training free mages just as the Circle does shows that they are not as horrible at it as you'd like to think.

They even have connections in the Circle, which would allow them to receive knowledge on new training methods, acquire necessary tomes, and even send their research to their Circle contacts.

There's room for improvement sure, but they don't suck at it. They're doing quite well, considering they have to maintain an air of secrecy.

But if you want to say they suck go ahead. It just makes you look like you're incapable of seeing other points on the matter.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A reactionary force to demon possesion is in tself a loosing battle.
[/quote]

Funny, that's exactly what the Circle does. They react to Demon possession.



[quote]They will turn to it Circle or no circle. Have done so before. Will do so again.[/quote]

Generalizations are splendid aren't they?

I mean, Malcolm spent his whole life never touching blood magic save for when he was forced to, by the Warden-Commander threatening his lover's life.

Afterwards, he abandoned using it again for the rest of his life.

He went 25 years without touching it again.

[quote]Give them time, they are both new to this.

[/quote]

Merrill went 7 years without being corrupted by blood magic, maintaining that its darker applications are ghastly and abhorrent.

Jowan is possibly still alive, using blood magic to protect refugees from the Blight.

[quote]I guess you can call that blood magic...technicly. Altouhg it's not really the same thing. No even close.
[/quote]

Phylacteries: said by David Gaider himself to be blood magic. Shown in-game with Gascard DuPuis using a vial of Alessa's blood for the same effect that it does to mages.

Joining: Follows the same principles as the Reaver Joining, which was called "definitely blood magic"

Blood magic to trap Corypheus: Called blood magic in-game.

So no, there is no technically about it. It's all blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 juin 2012 - 08:06 .

[Melca36]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



Well, those horror stories belong in the fanficton section.

Its NOT Fanfiction!!! Heres some evidence for you..........






Oh and here is a nice tip.......

Go to the Gallows when you dont have the quest line. Here is a screen to guide you to the right area. You will here the sound of whipping and torture.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Melca36 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, those horror stories belong in the fanficton section.

Its NOT Fanfiction!!!

It is . Oveblown. Taken to the extreeme.


Isolated incidents taken as proof of common practice.
Douches taken as example of every templar.
Kirkwall circle taken as an example of every circle.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is . Oveblown. Taken to the extreeme.


Isolated incidents taken as proof of common practice.
Douches taken as example of every templar.
Kirkwall circle taken as an example of every circle.

But you were denying that it happened at all. Not that it happened outside of Kirkwall.

Your first response to me on the matter was saying that it wasn't happening at all. When I said otherwise, you continued to state that it wasn't happening at all and was just fanfiction or that the Templars weren't causing it.

And now you're changing your position to "It happens, but people are just taking it way out of proportion that it happens all the time in Kirkwall or that it even happens anywhere else outside of Kirkwall."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nope, I didn't say it wasn't happening at all.

I said it was overblown (fanfiction) and people are geenralizing far too much.

I didn't change my position, so stop putting words in my mouth.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope, I didn't say it wasn't happening at all.

I said it was overblown (fanfiction) and people are geenralizing far too much.

I didn't change my position, so stop putting words in my mouth.

The impression I got was you were completely dismissing them, but whatever.

[karushna5]

Does anyone remember that usually, not Kirkwall, as we can see they are the extreme bunch, many mages can leave the circle? Wynne did, and so did Wilhelm. He even started a family.

Personally in my character's eyes, I joined the chantry and have a chaste marriage with Sebastian. Of course I am pro chantry and just happen to be a mage. In another playthrough my evil rogue just happened to become anti-chantry because those were the angry responses when dealing with chantry officials in DA:O so I carry the tradition.

In my eyes. The chantry isn't evil. Just like in real life religion can make people do nasty things Exalted Marches i am looking at you. On the other hand many people dismiss the good. Elthina was a wonderful woman, the chantry gives to orphans and widows. It helped Sebastian, Leliana, even Fenris a little bit. This thing is not black and white.

The Chantry is not a perfect place and can be downright cruel. On the other hand, it can be a place and ideology of refuge and peace. There is Petrice and Elthina that I feel both represent what the chantry has to offer.

[Zkyire]

Raydiva wrote...

The Chantry is very, very close to becoming like the Roman Catholic Church was during the Inquisition. And it is getting there fast, if not already there.

It has already corrupted the teachings of Andraste like the Church (during the Inquisition) corrupted the teachings of Christ.

The Chantry already has people who consider anyone that does not do as they say as heretics that need to be taken care of, even if it means war. Exalted Marches in DA similar to Crusades?

They seem to encourage hatred of minorities. Mages and Elves in DA. Those of Jewish decent and maybe Gypsies in Europe.

The list just goes on. Much of what I'm seeing could be wrong, since it has been a while since I took World History.

Actually looking back on this, it seems that the Chantry is becoming like WW2 Germany as well. Mage Towers (especially in DA2) becoming like concentration camps. I know the mage towers don't even come close to being as horrible, but I could see the Chantry heading in that direction. As of the current game, they seem more like the Japanese American Internment Camps. There to keep everyone safe by preventing sabotage, etc that most likely never would have happened and the people being forces to live in those places suffering because of closed minded bigots.

Bah...proof that no matter how dark a game gets, it can't get no where as dark as real life can be.

Edit:  For some reason could not use the more historical accurate N word for the group that lead Germany during World War 2.

The Crusades were a reactionary defense of Christian lands that were invaded by Muslims. The Christians didn't start the war.

It's not a hatred of Mages, but a fear of what they can do without observation and training (see: what one untrained mage; Connor, did to Redcliffe).

Elves? Yeah that's a fair point, they have basically no reason for that.

[LobselVith8]

karushna5 wrote...

Does anyone remember that usually, not Kirkwall, as we can see they are the extreme bunch, many mages can leave the circle?

People have strong feelings, both in favor of the Andrastian Chantry and against its practices, but Circle mages don't have the freedom you think they do. Even a Senior Enchanter like Wynne needed permission to leave, and even then it was to aid The Warden against the Fifth Blight. Ines had permission to leave to study a plant that was rumored to be able to grow in Blighted soil, post-Fifth Blight. It's mentioned in Asunder that mages address that Wynne has certain freedoms that no other mage has, so mages don't have the freedom you think they do.

karushna5 wrote...

Wynne did, and so did Wilhelm. He even started a family.

Again, Asunder addresses Wynne alone has such freedoms among Circle mages. Anders wouldn't have consistently run away if all Circle mages had such freedoms. And Wilhelm is a poor example because he's an exception to the rule. As Gaider addressed elsewhere:

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

Circle mages lose their children to the Chantry by law, with only Grey Warden mages being the exception. So, considering Wilhelm was a war hero during the Orlesian occupation under Moira and Maric, it stands as a strong possibility that he had a royal boon to give him freedom that other Circle mages are forbidden from having.

karushna5 wrote...

Personally in my character's eyes, I joined the chantry and have a chaste marriage with Sebastian. Of course I am pro chantry and just happen to be a mage. In another playthrough my evil rogue just happened to become anti-chantry because those were the angry responses when dealing with chantry officials in DA:O so I carry the tradition.

Has it ever been addressed why Sebastian never comments on (mage) Hawke being an apostate? Considering his views on apostates and all (particularly, a certain dialogue he can have with Fenris concerning apostates), I'm surprised it never came up (since Fenris comments on the issue).

karushna5 wrote...

In my eyes. The chantry isn't evil. Just like in real life religion can make people do nasty things Exalted Marches i am looking at you. On the other hand many people dismiss the good. Elthina was a wonderful woman, the chantry gives to orphans and widows. It helped Sebastian, Leliana, even Fenris a little bit. This thing is not black and white.

People account for both the good and the bad; some people simply have their reasons for not liking the Chantry because, for them, the bad outweights the good. Personally, I don't like the Andrastian Chantry, their role in the Exalted March on the Dales is suspect given the Dalish POV and their history in supporting nation-conquering Orlais (including during the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden), and I don't support the Chantry controlled Circles. I also don't think that Grand Cleric Elthina is a good woman. I suppose we can agree to disagree on these issues.

karushna5 wrote...

The Chantry is not a perfect place and can be downright cruel. On the other hand, it can be a place and ideology of refuge and peace. There is Petrice and Elthina that I feel both represent what the chantry has to offer.

I think that most people who dislike the Chantry feel that way because the bad outweights everything else for them.