65 réponses à ce sujet

[EricHVela]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If you guys remember Sloth Demon in DA:O..

"Why? Aren't you tired of violence? You deserve a rest...the world will go on without you..."

That is a nice mind control... :-)

Fade Duncan also... "We manage to defeat the darkspawn, no need to fight anymore, the world is at peace...LOL!" (something like this)

If we can make someone who is so hostile become a peaceful person, that is a good mind control/hypnosis in my personal point of view....

Tranquility is more evil than mind control, Tranquility remove a person emotion at all making them not a person anymore...cannot love, cannot hate, cannot feel anything...it is like castration...

Who is omnipotent enough to know when they should force a person to be peaceful through mind-control?

Sloth did just that. It did not turn people into Tranquils. It forced them to be non-combative (peaceful) so it could prey upon them. Yet, who gets to decide if that's good?

As I stated before: Every action has a consequence, good or bad, intended or not.

Let's say you see a man fighting his way through others. You make them all peaceful and go away. Later, you find out that his family was killed, because he was unable to get past the people protecting the ones who were going to kill his family.

Sure. There was no way you could have known that, but your actions indirectly killed his family because you thought you knew enough to make that decision.

Of course, now, knowing what you know -- hindsight and all that, you'd reload the game and say "Well. I'd interrogate them first before letting them go."

If the man was actively fighting to get to the people he needed to stop, time was likely of the essence, and your meddling ensured nobody was there to stop the murderers.

Yet, that's even assuming you could reload the game and try again. The scenarios we are considering do not have that option.

No. Nobody is omnipotent enough to know when to control someone's mind for any reason.

[Gervaise]

I do not like Tranquility and it has always given me the creeps. However, something that has been largely lost in DA2 is that normally it is done with the mage's consent. There was the diary of a tranquil in Origins in which he stated that it was a relief to be free of the constant fear of possession, particularly as he wasn't a particularly powerful mage but the demons still seemed attracted to him anyway. For this person the choice seemed to be inevitable possession and loss of self to a demon or loss of self to tranquility. He chose the latter. Now you can argue the rights and wrongs of the harrowing but the mage is given a choice. Also tranquil still have free will and so if ordered to kill someone, they could refuse.

When you mind control someone they have no choice at all. You could force them to kill their own family and they would be powerless to resist. Even worse, they could also alter you mind so you wouldn't know that someone else had forced you to do this. You would just be faced with the evidence that you had killed your loved ones and wouldn't know why. That seems far more evil.

[Kyneris]

I think there's a disctinion between using blood magic and dealing with demons.

Magic is just a tool, if someone gets run over by a car, you don't blame the car, you blame the driver and you don't suddenly ban cars because they can be used as weapons.

Dealing with demons is different imo, they will almost always trick/deceive/betray you when there is some benefit to be had (like the demon entering a mage's body and becoming an abomination)

Do I use Blood Magic ? Yes.
Do I consort/deal with demons ? No.

[Fallstar]

I think its a dangerous form of magic, but that there are circumstances that justify its use. Wardens should be given carte blanche to use blood magic during Blights. (We are in game anyway...but as an actual thing, rather than a lack of reactivity.) Being able to debate the morality of blood magic is a luxury you can't really afford during a blight. As the Warden tells the captured blood mage in the circle tower who protests that she is a maleficar when you try to recruit her, "Good. That means you can kill darkspawn faster."

Senior Enchanters and above should also be allowed to study blood magic. Remember "Temptation lies in the forbidden"? Well perhaps if study of blood magic was allowed and regulated like any other form of magic for those who have proven themselves responsible, then there wouldn't be such a big deal about it. You can say that the kind of power that lets you control minds is corrupting; but the power to create a firestorm or cause an earthquake isn't?

[Samzo77]

I believe the connection with blood magic and demons was:
A) You have to make a deal with a demon to learn it effectually (typically). It was the old gods who first tought it to the magisters, in order to become more powerful, and free them, which resulted in the turning of the golden city to the black city, and started the blights.
Blood magic is the trading of life force for a boost in power, or to perform certain spells you wouldn't have been able to otherwise. People using it are more likely to be compromising in how they achieve their personal goals, which is why they might be more susceptible to the sway of a demon.
C) The more you consort with demons, the more likely you are of becoming possessed, but not all blood mages are abominations. I'm reading "Asunder," right now, which makes some interesting points on how a Mage might not be aware he is being influenced by demons, use of blood magic or not. Some how, blood magic increases your susceptibility.

As far as mind control by way of blood magic, it really isn't the same as what the sloth demon was doing in DA:O. A demon putting you to sleep, or controlling you through desire, is not "regular magic," like what a circle Mage might use to confuse an enemy into fighting amongst themselves. In fact, I wouldn't call it magic, so much as a power or ability a specific demon has.

Long story short, I'm against blood magic, as have most of my characters been. The risk isnt worth the reward. Having good intentions doesn't make it all right, because it stills increases the chance that you will become an abomination and murder everyone you just helped.

[tek427]

During the DA:O time, I thought blood magic was purely evil (mostly due to the method used to aquire the specialization). But thanks Merrill, I'm kinda neutral about it.

I would like to see blood magic potentially being used for good purposes. You can use Blood Sacrifice to steal the life from a party member, why not the other way around and use the blood mage's life to heal a party member? Yeah, you could just use BM to power the Heal spell from the Creation school, but it doesn't feel the same.

That's just my opinion, though. There's no need spreading it around.

[TEWR]

tek427 wrote...

During the DA:O time, I thought blood magic was purely evil (mostly due to the method used to aquire the specialization). But thanks Merrill, I'm kinda neutral about it.

I would like to see blood magic potentially being used for good purposes. You can use Blood Sacrifice to steal the life from a party member, why not the other way around and use the blood mage's life to heal a party member? Yeah, you could just use BM to power the Heal spell from the Creation school, but it doesn't feel the same.

That's just my opinion, though. There's no need spreading it around.

I agree. But I also wonder why it has to be companion blood that heals you. Why not enemy blood, so long as the enemy is human?

[dragonflight288]

A blood mage can use creation spells to heal others, just not themselves.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A blood mage can use creation spells to heal others, just not themselves.

If this is in response to me, I meant why does it have to be "If you want to heal yourself, use your ally's blood and take it as your own"? Why not do take your enemy's blood and heal yourself with it?

Additionally, what the person I quoted said is also true: Why can't you use your own blood to heal other people in the reverse method that Sacrifice works? Sacrifice requires you to take other peoples' blood as your own. Why not instead give your blood to an ally and make it theirs?

[KainD]

I will sum up blood magic in 4 words - Knowledge, power, progress, freedom. If I was a mage, I would learn it without a doubt. 

Modifié par KainD, 13 juin 2012 - 09:27 .

[Sons of Horus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A blood mage can use creation spells to heal others, just not themselves.

If this is in response to me, I meant why does it have to be "If you want to heal yourself, use your ally's blood and take it as your own"? Why not do take your enemy's blood and heal yourself with it?

Additionally, what the person I quoted said is also true: Why can't you use your own blood to heal other people in the reverse method that Sacrifice works? Sacrifice requires you to take other peoples' blood as your own. Why not instead give your blood to an ally and make it theirs?

As for in game mechanics you can use the blood mage/healer combo, but I would think lore wise that blood mages seek to dominate other people rather than help heal them. Not saying it that its impossible to make such a spell, but that few who practice blood magic would be interested in it.

Blood mages shown so far seem to be people either desperate or power hungry (or even both). This tend to make the trend of putting themselves first (or cause) above the people around them. It also demonstrates why blood mages view other people as a resources to manipulate and exploit.

I would say that they may even have a real fear of losing control of their freedom/control if they were to attempt such a spell, such as a rival obtaining their blood, using the healed person as a tool against the blood mage. Stuff like that puts their self preservation way above anyone surrounding them.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 13 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[dragonflight288]

If this is in response to me, I meant why does it have to be "If you want to heal yourself, use your ally's blood and take it as your own"? Why not do take your enemy's blood and heal yourself with it?

Nah, wasn't in response to anyone really. Rather, and I should've made this more clear, say we have an apostate healer treating people, but he can only heal so many people before running out of energy. Anders healed that kid when we first meet him in DA2, and it about dropped him. Granted after a few seconds, he was good to go again. But a blood mage can, if they are running short of mana, use their own blood as a source of power. Or they can attempt to redirect blood flow to keep someone from bleeding to death, or other stuff.

[steven20011]

A bit like the dark side of the force

[EricHVela]

Nizaris1 wrote...

there is a beggar asking you money, you feel sympathy, you give him money...later you found him dead because get robbed by other beggars...

there is a thief get into your house, you capture him by calling the police...later you learned his family got killed by a gang because he don't manage to pay his debt, if he manage to steal something valuable in your house he can save his family...

you save a drowned guy at the sea...he thank you...but then you read in news paper that man is a rapist, he raped 18 girls already....

It is called butterfly effect. If you think too much about it, you don't do anything and you learn nothing. You are not responsible for something beyond your control, your knowledge and your power...you only responsible for something in you control, knowledge and power

In Star Wars, every Jedi can do Jedi Mind Trick, but all Jedi know not to abuse that power, all Jedi aware the lure to the dark side, they only use Jedi Mind Trick for certain case especially to avoid any violence or to escape...

Mind Control have it use, but how you use it...and for what...

Yes. You can say you won't know the conclusion for every action.

However, turn the tables and go to the receiving end of such mind control.

You get to remember your actions as if they were your own as if it were your choices. You are stuck with a brutal paradox that you know you would have never done such things for those reasons and yet it seemed reasonable. Your mind was just violated.

Still agree with it even if someone did it to make you stop fighting someone else?

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 14 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[SerTabris]

I think that using blood magic for mind control in a hostage situation would be good.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Nah, wasn't in response to anyone really. Rather, and I should've made this more clear, say we have an apostate healer treating people, but he can only heal so many people before running out of energy. Anders healed that kid when we first meet him in DA2, and it about dropped him. Granted after a few seconds, he was good to go again. But a blood mage can, if they are running short of mana, use their own blood as a source of power. Or they can attempt to redirect blood flow to keep someone from bleeding to death, or other stuff.

Ah right. Your last sentence is one I've argued before as well many times, because it makes sense for blood mages to be able to do that.

I see no reason why a Blood Mage can't manipulate the flow of blood in a severely injured person so as to keep them from bleeding to death while a Spirit Healer uses their magic to heal the wound.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Anyway...hypnotism is REAL, we have it in real life.

Hypnotism help transsexuals after SRS to make them really feel they are women or men, help low esteem people to build their character, help psychotic patients, and many more positive use. hypnotism is one of the method of mind control

No, it is not mind control. A hypnotism subject could break out of the trance at any point. If it does all of that stuff you mention, it's because the subject is okay with it.

Hypnotism magic is also real, my people call it "pukau", usually used by robbers and rapists to rob and/or rape people. They use this magic to distract the victim or making the victims don't realize anything  while they do what they want to the victim. I was one of the victim of "pukau", it happens when i was 15 years old, a guy use pukau to my entire family, and he rob our house. The police take the report (Malaysian police do take report on "pukau" cases if you don't believe in such thing)

Originally, pukau used in war only by ancient people, but nowadays some people abuse this magic.

There are various ways of "pukau" and there are ways to against it in which i don't bother to write here.

Apparently it involves hypnotizing a victim well in advance, and securing their trust beforehand. Is that what happened here? Or did whoever it was manage to do something really weird?

And what about the ancient war stories? Was that for esiponage, or actual combat? And how sure can you be of the authenticity? Ancient stories can be completely insane. Trust me, I went to Catholic school.


Edit: I just found another explanation where there's supposed to be smoke you blow into the house first. Maybe something in the smoke? Still doesn't technically sound like magic to me.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 juin 2012 - 05:08 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, regardless of whether anything of the sort is possible in real life (Western Skepticism ftw) the fact remains that there are legitimate uses for mind control in a fantasy setting. Stop someone who's attacking yourself or another, either forcing someone to divulge information they have that you legitimately need or gaining ironclad proof that they don't have it (the alternative is torture, which is both worse for all concerned and less reliable) and probably some others.

Of course, most of this is stuff that only legitimate law enforcement should be doing anyway, which is one argument in favor of the horribly misused Tevinter philosophy that magic should be used for the sake of the sitting rulers to whatever extent possible. (Or adventurers can use it for these purposes, I suppose, because most fantasy settings revolve around them.)

Edit: As for other uses of Blood Magic, such as boiling someone alive from the inside, or just powering ordinary spells using it... well, I fail to see how these are any worse than simply attacking/killing someone with an ordinary spell.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 16 juin 2012 - 11:54 .