38 réponses à ce sujet

[Aluvious]

From my point of view, someone who whines is someone who's complaints aren't justified. Alistair doesn't really fit that bill, though. He mourns over Duncan because he was a father to him and the only one who cared about what he wanted. He doesn't want to be lead because he's afraid of letting people down. He deflects personal questions with humor to hide his insecurity. He doesn't want to be seen as a potential ruler because people either resent him for threatening Cailan's rule or coddle him by keeping him out of battle like Duncan did.

He's actually a male character that features a wider range of emotions unlike most video game characters. He isn't a jerky, brooding mary sue with a pitch black dark past who occasionally mutters "mother" every now and then (for example, Marcus Fenix, Jack Slate, Kratos etc etc). For me, he never came across as particularly irritating or whiny at all. I'm wondering why other people see him that way?

[Vanilka]

I must agree with you. I've never seen Alistair as whiny. He does complain from time to time - he even admits it, which I appreciate very much. However, I've always thought that his complaints are justified. He's lost much after all. I think his "whiny side" only shows when you play different origins. While having played a female city elf, I had never noticed him being whiny. Playing a male human noble now and being able to compare Alistair's and my character's fates, I think that, from objective perspective, human noble's loss is bigger. Which doesn't make losing a person that he practically considered a father any better. While talking to him about it and mentioning that you've not only lost your real father but your whole family, he always apologises about being insensitive. I don't really see what's to hate here but each to their own, I guess.

On the other hand, sometimes Alistair does speak in a whiny *tone*. E.g. In the Fade: "Where are you going?! What's happening to meeeee?! [Disappears from the nightmare.]" Hah, I don't remember the lines exactly. However, I've always taken it as a comic relief more than anything else. But maybe I'm just blinded by my love for the character.

As far as I can remember, Alistair only slightly irritated me once and that was during the Landsmeet. I asked him whether I should make Anora the ruler and he replied something along the lines of: "Yes? No? ... I don't know!" Make up your mind, you dummy! (However, I was somewhat glad. I didn't want to make him a king anyway.)

[Corker]

Alistair is neither my most favorite nor least favorite companion.

The responsibility avoidance, the equivocation about the kingship, and the insecurity are what grate on most people (EDIT: who have a problem with him), I think. I've had Wardens who were accepting and understanding of it, Wardens who were immensely irritated by it, and Wardens who didn't notice much and put other people in the party instead of Al.

He doesn't whine, not in the way that a five-year old whines. But people have different levels of patience for him working out his issues. If/When the patience runs out, they get annoyed. Whining is also annoying, so I think his continued dialogue is labeled "whiny" because it grates. Also, if they're at a point of not liking the character, it's a handy pejorative term to dump on him. And for bonus points, it riles people up in Internet forums.

Modifié par Corker, 11 juin 2012 - 02:33 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Duncan is a father for him for about...6 month?

Alistair have a problem there....

He needed one. Desparately.

(Not saying that's not a psychological problem, I'm just pointing out it's an understandable one.)

[Vanilka]

Corker wrote...

The responsibility avoidance, the equivocation about the kingship, and the insecurity are what grate on most people (EDIT: who have a problem with him), I think...

He doesn't whine, not in the way that a five-year old whines. But people have different levels of patience for him working out his issues...

That's an interesting and reasonable point you make. The only thing I don't understand is disliking Alistair for "avoiding responsibility." This is not the first time I'm reading something like that. Yes, I guess that's the right expression after all. However, giving up your life and carrying the weight of the well-being of a whole country on your own shoulders is no small thing to ask. Call me irresponsible but if anyone suddenly asked me to become a queen, I would run and never return. What I want to say by that is that from all his bad habits, this one is very understandable. For me as a player, at the very least. That's why during my first playthrough, with a rather gentle and compassionate female character, I grasped the first opportunity not to make him a king because, unlike Anora - who, moreover, already had not only the experience and reputation needed but also the eagerness to do it -, he seemed to be horrified by the very thought of it. However, I think that my dutiful human noble is not going to be so understanding. I'm curious as to how it'll turn out.

I guess I can see what people might dislike about the character. I still wouldn't go so far to call him "whiny." But I think you've made a solid enough point.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 11 juin 2012 - 04:20 .

[Lazy Jer]

I didn't consider Alistair to be whiny in regards to Duncan.  He really respected the man and to know that not only did the man die fighting Darkspawn, but to know that he died because of betrayal, well that can be difficult to take.  It's understandable that he would mourn the lose, and all things considered, for all his mourning, he still managed to carry on and get the important work done.

I did get a little frustrated with him in regards to the whole "heir to the throne" thing.  Sure he may have never wanted to be king, but what other option was there?  Loghain wasn't an option, Alistair of all people knew that.  The man betrayed his rightful king and put the entire continent of Ferelden at risk of a blight because he was so focused on his hatred of Orlais that he couldn't see the real threat from the imagined one.  Was Queen Anora really an option?  She's capable, perhaps, but cold-hearted and ambitious.  She is fully willing to sell out the Warden and Alistair the minute things go wrong.  I can understand him not wanting to marry that (though I made him anyway) but wanting her to be queen just so he doesn't have to?  There's no better option, but he still came in and complained at me after it was decided, even after he agreed it was the best option.

Anyway that's when I started getting thinking of him as a whiner.  Which, honestly speaking, I think is good story-telling.  It's a real character with real faults.

[gandanlin]

I think Alistair is an interesting portrayal of a person whose blood relationship to the royal line, and the circumstances surrounding that relationship, royally messes up his chances at having a normal life. He is always having to sort of apologize for his existence and at the same time being thrust, willy-nilly, into the turbulent affairs of politics.

The only thing I ever wondered at with respect to Alistair was why he did not woo Leliana. They seemed like a perfect couple.

Modifié par gandanlin, 11 juin 2012 - 07:59 .

[DahliaLynn]

My feeling is, many people find it easy to consider Alistair as whiny because the writers themselves suggested it. Morrigan uses that word, as well as it being an option in some of the Warden's dialogue choices. The minute the game itself (or characters themselves) makes "fun" of character, it becomes very easy to latch on to that thought, and from that point on every word he says becomes easily interpreted as whiny. It's not entirely wrong given that some of his delivery tends to go in that general direction, though I personally never thought about it until I had a dialogue option that actually stated it.

[Aluvious]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...


As far as I can remember, Alistair only slightly irritated me once and that was during the Landsmeet. I asked him whether I should make Anora the ruler and he replied something along the lines of: "Yes? No? ... I don't know!" Make up your mind, you dummy! (However, I was somewhat glad. I didn't want to make him a king anyway.)

Unhardened Alistair is very indecisive when it comes to the Landsmeet. Somehow I managed to marry him to Anora without actually hooking them up beforehand.

[frostajulie]

I don't understand it myself either. Allistair has many flaws but whining is NOT one of them. But then people said the same thing about Kaiden in ME and it made no sense then either.

[dunstan1993]

I used to hate him when I first bought DA:O Ultimate Edition about 3 years ago and I continued to hate him for the vast majority of that time. I saw him as whiny, cowardly, tedious, immature and stupid.

Also I heard just before I'd finished one of my other Wardens (Pre-Deleting them all) that you could exile him and make him a wandering drunk in DA2, a fate that I'd consider to be worse than death for some......


It's not till my most recent and now only Warden (Started a few months ago) that I've really come to like him, he's really not as bad as I used to think, in fact he's not bad at all. Perhaps I've matured or become more tolerant I don't know, but all I know is I now take him everywhere with me and I'm going to put him on the Throne, he deserves a happy ending after suffering un-just punishment from all my past Wardens.

[Merilsell]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Vanilka of the Sword Coast

That's an interesting and reasonable point you make. The only thing I don't understand is disliking Alistair for "avoiding responsibility

Alistair avoid responsibility even in the beginning at Lothering, he just left everything to the Warden who just recently going through Joining and nearly dead at Tower of Ishal...he is a senior Grey Warden than the Warden...it is still okay if the Warden is male, but if the Warden is female it show Alistair is totally weak and irresponsible...Morrigan did ask Alistair about that and as usual Alistair response is like a jack ass

But i don't deny he is a good man, he's just have a very low self esteem

Two words before I come to the part of your post that is bothering most: Game mechanics. Alistair defers to the Warden, because she/he is the player and thus the "boss". What do you think how much he would be hated if he only tag you along and to force you into every decision the way he wants because he is the senior Warden? No matter what Alistair does here, he cant't win this one, sigh.

People would whine when he would act like the boss and slap you across the face when you say otherwise. And people whine because he defers to the Warden and thus the decisions of the player. (which is also in character for him. As you said, he has a low self-esteem due to his upbringing and doesn't believe he can lead. As simple as.)

He still has his moral compass and opinions, but the last decision is up to you. Because that is what a RPG is about (or should) the decisions of the player, not Alistair's. Imagine the sh*tstorm occurring if it were. So yeah.

And ugh, Are you serious? When it is a male Warden it is okay that he defers, but when it is a female Warden he is a jackass? Why? Does the poor female have to be protected by the strong male? My female Wardens are very much capable of handling themselves without a male looking out for them. Thank you very much. This comment rubs me all kind of wrong.

That being said, Alistair still gives his opinion and support, which is mistaken as whining by some players. Yeah, you deferred to me, Ima boss now, so shut up. How dare you to have an opinion...or, oh god, actual feelings. Impossible. You have to marvel in my brilliance and agree to everything I do. [/sarcasm]

Ah well, haters gonna hate *shrug*

[gandanlin]

Yes, I think you make some good points, Merilsell. Particularly the game mechanics one.

Alistair shows some moments of unexpected depth, and he shows some moments of shallowness. I felt he was quite credible as a character. Whiny has never been a word I used to describe him.

It added another layer of depth to the moral/ethical dimension of the game to be able to influence him and the other contenders for the throne. Nor did this made him look weak or indecisive. Rather, he seemed humble (in a good way) about his own abilities and talents.

The characters I distrusted/disliked in DAO were the ones who were continually grasping after power and showing themselves willing to betray and sacrifice their companions in their mad quest for the power to control others.

[Gallimatia]

After Redcliffe he whines. That's where you have the option to tell him to "Quit your whining!".

It's especially bad if you kill Connor. If you tell him you did your best without sufficient persuasion he makes it clear he does not belive you. It's all the more troubling if you're friends or lovers. Killing a possessed innocent is hard enough without the people you're close to condemning you for it. It's not like he knows the blood magic ritual would have worked flawlessly or that the Demon would have remained passive while you strolled off to the Circle. Sending Morrigan into the Fade to expel a Desire Demon could easily have been a recipe for disaster and sending any mage could have resulted in a team with one less mage and a dead for nothing Isolde. I suspect Duncan would have killed Connor.

Rather than support the Warden in this difficult time Alistair whines. In his defence he appologizes after and asks you to forget what he said. But how could you?

[gandanlin]

There is an interesting comparison to be made between Alistair’s story and the Human Noble story.
 
Alistair feels deeply betrayed by Loghain and, in my opinion, is quite right to feel that way. Yet Alistair, in one of the possible ways of playing the Landsmeet, is faced with the prospect of having Loghain join the Wardens. When I think of how I would feel if I was in Alistair’s shoes at the Landsmeet, I don’t have too much trouble understanding why he cannot remain with the team if Loghain is permitted to join. It is simply unacceptable.
 
So compare that situation with what the Human Noble is faced with at Arl Howe’s during the rescue of Anora. Riordin does not pop in and suggest that maybe Arl Howe ought to be recruited. The Human Noble is never challenged in the same way at Arl Howe’s as Alistair was at the Landsmeet. It might have been quite interesting if the Human Noble had been challenged in that way.
 
There is a fair bit of offering people the opportunity to redeem themselves in DAO. But the decision to offer a chance at redemption is probably much easier to make when your character is not the one who has been directly betrayed. When I think of myself playing the role of a Human Noble, and imagine how I would feel if Riordin had suggested to me that I should recruit Arl Howe, I can easily imagine myself reacting in the same way Alistair does when the decision is made to recruit Loghain at the Landsmeet. I imagine I would want nothing more to do with Riordin and the Wardens. The situation would be unacceptable. It would be a deep and painful insult to the memory of my family.
 
If I am going to role-play a character who is willing to demand of Alistair that he put aside his personal feelings and accept Loghain‘s joining, then maybe that same difficult question should be asked of the character I am role-playing -- in terms that are just as harrowing to that character as they are to Alistair.
 
 

[Fiacre]

The difference is though, that Howe directly betrayed your family, his friends, while the case can be made that what Loghain did was a tactical retreat and therefore justified. My Nobles all want Howe dead (though Shea didn't want to kill him himself, or at least not the way it happened -- he'd have preferred a trial. I actually had to think of a reason for him to not just knock Howe out.), but two of them spared Loghain and the third ended up quite disgusted with what happened, even if he still saw Alistair as a good friend. And if Howe had "killed" their family with a tactical retreat, they would all three have understood the decision.

Of course, your character could think that Loghain betrayed everyone at Ostagar, but at least two of mine didn't, so they felt perfectly justified not killing him and would have reacted rather badly to any comparison to Howe had Alistair made one, because they wouldn't have seen any similarities in the two situations at all. Which isn't to say that comparing the two can't be valid, but I think it depends on what your PC thinks of Ostagar.

[AndrahilAdrian]

He gets very whiny if you spare loghain, even though its obviously the practical thing to do.

[Aluvious]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

He gets very whiny if you spare loghain, even though its obviously the practical thing to do.

It's understandable why he reacts that way. Loghain pretty much turned Alistair's world upside down when he left everyone in Ostagar to die. His father figure along with his fellow Grey Wardens. Simply letting Loghain live wasn't the only thing that ticked off Alistair. It was letting him live AND making him a Grey Warden, what Alistair considered to be the highest honor that could be given. Making Loghain, a traitor and a slaver, a Warden, also shatters this viewpoint, which is also why he "quits" the Grey Wardens if Loghain is recruited.

[Merilsell]

Gallimatia wrote...
Rather than support the Warden in this difficult time Alistair whines. In his defence he appologizes after and asks you to forget what he said. But how could you?

Because he is only human and has not always his emotions under control like a cold uncaring killing machine that some wants him to be. I like that on Alistair. He is flawed and makes mistakes, which the yelling at you after Redcliffe is. But he also sees that and apologizes afterwards.

He is actually yelling at you because he is terrified of what will happen when Eamon should find out what has happened. That they, instead sought help with the circle killed his son/wife. It is a purely egoistic reason and he forgets the greater picture for a moment and loads that off at you. People vent when they are angry or frustrated and sometimes they take it out on others. Is it unfair? Yes, indeed, but he apologizes for it afterwards and with high cunning you can even call him out on it. The thing is, this makes him more real as a character (for me). Alistair is flawed and far from being perfect and this is why I like him.

As easy as.

Modifié par Merilsell, 14 juin 2012 - 03:49 .

[Vanilka]

Aluvious wrote...
Unhardened Alistair is very indecisive when it comes to the Landsmeet. Somehow I managed to marry him to Anora without actually hooking them up beforehand.

Thank you for your reply. I've heard so. But I don't want to harden him. Not the way the game wants you to. I think it's very insensitive and, to be honest, it doesn't even make any sense to me. So unless I make a character that doesn't mind kicking someone who's already lying, it's not going to happen. I mean, who reacts like that?

- Oh, all my hopes and dreams have been shattered into a million pieces!
- Every man for himself, man, every man for himself...

What the...?!  I like playing pragmatic and somewhat harsh characters from time to time but this just doesn't feel right. Even more so, if he's your character's friend or lover. It doesn't even make sense in that situation, in my opinion. If you must be mean, why not to say something along the lines of: "Life is hard. Deal with it." instead?

As for me, personally, I don't mind him unhardened. I like, more or less, all DA:O companions with their virtues *and* flaws, Alistair being my personal favourite. Despite him being a bit indecisive, immature and sometimes a little irrational. I'd say that from all the companions you can get in the game, Alistair feels the most human. I like that. Though I admit I'm very curious about his hardened personality and will try it eventually. Still, I wish we had more chances to influence him.

I still fail to see him as "whiny" though. Despite all this discussion. At first, I didn't consider the rest of the game. I have only played it about one and a half time so far, so I haven't seen everything that can be seen yet. I haven't got yelled at after Redcliff, I haven't spared Loghain, I haven't been dumped during the Landsmeet... There's still so much to see. Then, maybe I'll change my stance. Although I don't really think so. I think it's easy to keep your head cool from behind the monitor. I'd say that most people would be just as "whiny" as Alistair is, if not more, if they had to walk in his shoes.

Huh? You made him marry that... thing?  Poor Alistair. I know, I know, it's an intelligent thing to do. Still... Poor Alistair.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 16 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[Fiacre]

Eh. I think it's very easy to get the whiny impression based on things like the Redcliffe reaction -- no matter how human it is -- or the Duncan conversation, especially if you're a HN. (Two of mine pretty much stopped talking to him after that.) I always think "It makes him human" is a somewhat weak argument; being whiny can make you human as well, and having a very human feeling character doesn't necessarily mean it's a very likeable character.

I think the Landsmeet suffers from the lack of response you can give, as do many situations in the game -- there's no real way to justify your decision to Alistair and there's also no reaction to you having voiced doubts against fighting Loghain before (and you can suggest supporting Loghain when you wake Eamon up -- Alistair promptly asks if you're joking but still seems surprised that you'd want to spare Loghain later on :/) If you could actually say why you want to spare Loghain, and he'd address those points (and there are some common ones I think the game could accommodate for: the tactical retreat opinion, the fact that he yielded) or at least being able to tell Alistair to the face that you don't consider being a GW an honour at all (and maybe even hate it), instead of just saying something like "Not all of us have spotless honour." then people might complain less about how they have good reasons and Alistair should stop whining.

So unless I make a character that doesn't mind kicking someone who's already lying, it's not going to happen. I mean, who reacts like that?

It could be a similar reaction as Alistair has to Redcliffe. My mage has family issues himself and while he thinks of Alistair as a friend and knows that he should be more supportive, his bitterness gets through and he lashes out. It's not necessarily intentionally kicking someone when they're down.

Huh? You made him marry that... thing? smilie Poor Alistair. I know, I know, it's an intelligent thing to do. Still... Poor Alistair.

Pff, he's a lucky bastard getting a wife like that. Marrying Anora is just another reason to play lots of HNMs...