38 réponses à ce sujet

[jillabender]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote…

But I don't want to harden him. Not the way the game wants you to. I think it's very insensitive and, to be honest, it doesn't even make any sense to me. So unless I make a character that doesn't mind kicking someone who's already lying, it's not going to happen. I mean, who reacts like that?

- Oh, all my hopes and dreams have been shattered into million pieces!
- Every man for himself, man, every man for himself...

What the...?! I like playing pragmatic and somewhat harsh characters from time to time but this just doesn't feel right. Even more so, if he's your character's friend or lover. It doesn't even make sense in that situation, in my opinion. If you must be mean, why not to say something along the lines of: "Life is hard. Deal with it." instead?

I might be off-base, but I actually think that the line you're talking about ("Everyone is out for themselves. You should learn that.") comes across as more harsh than the writers may have realized or intended because of the way it's worded. I agree that the line comes across as unnecessarily harsh and insensitive because it's worded in such a terse way, but in a conversation with the Warden afterwards, Alistair actually thanks him or her for helping him to realize that he needs to, as he puts it, "look out for myself more." In that conversation, the Warden has the chance to tell Alistair that he or she values him as a friend, and Alistair's responses show that he sees the Warden's advice as supportive and constructive.

There's a mod on Dragon Age Nexus called "ZDF Dialogue Fix" that, in addition to fixing various bugs that come up in conversations, replaces the original "hardening" response to Alistair's line "I feel like a complete idiot" with two new options:

"You're not an idiot, but you need to stand up for yourself."
"I'm sorry for what happened, but you need to realize that people usually put themselves first."

In my opinion, both of these options feel much more appropriate to the situation, and are more in keeping with Alistair's reaction.

So, to summarize, I didn't like the original "hardening" line either, for the same reasons you mentioned, and I'm glad that I found a mod that replaces it. But I'm still glad that the writers gave us the option to push Alistair to stand up for himself more, because I find it heart-breaking to watch him stand there and take Goldanna's abuse out of desperation to gain her approval.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 juin 2012 - 12:11 .

[TEWR]

Alistair defers to the Warden, because she/he is the player and thus the "boss". What do you think how much he would be hated if he only tag you along and to force you into every decision the way he wants because he is the senior Warden? No matter what Alistair does here, he cant't win this one, sigh.

Actually he gives a reason for it to Shale. He doesn't like being in charge of other peoples' lives. Being the leader of the group means he would have to be the leader of the army, and he just feels that he isn't capable for that role.

Deciding who lives and who dies and whatnot.

And it's understandable really. You have to have some real courage to make decisions like that. And you have to have an honest heart to tell yourself that you'll have to live with that choice for the rest of your life, because it's a horrible thing to do. No matter how necessary it may be, it will always be monstrous.

Though I think Alistair's perfectly capable of eventually being such a person -- it's evident if he's made King where he leads men into battle -- he just doesn't see himself as being that person, now or ever.

[Vanilka]

Fiacre wrote...

Eh. I think it's very easy to get the whiny impression based on things like the Redcliffe reaction... having a very human feeling character doesn't necessarily mean it's a very likeable character. 

 
I see. I guess I need more playthroughs then because I haven't got on the bad side of his yet. During my first playthrough, he was kind, cute and funny and he sacrificed his life to save my Warden's without a second of hesitation, without giving her a chance to even try offering hers. Long story short, it was extremely easy to start liking him a lot. I guess I should thank the fact most of my characters would do anything not to have to kill mothers and children, as practical and logical choice it might otherwise be. (I like to pretend that the rest of the party, which I didn't take with me, keeps Connor at bay. )

Though you're very right about "human characters". A human character truly doesn't equal a likeable character. I was just trying to point out that some of Alistair's flaws are quite understandable, given his past, the circumstances. I'm not saying that all of them are, of course. Nor that everyone should love him for that or anything.

Fiacre wrote... 
I think the Landsmeet suffers from the lack of response you can give, as do many situations in the game...

 
You're so very right. That's a problem I encounter fairly often. Sometimes, you just lack a means to defend yourself in an argument or whatever situation. I know that the writers simply can't catch whatever thought a player might have in their head but it's still very frustrating not to be able to justify your decisions and let characters pick on you instead, absolutely defenseless. Some characters would definitely be less annoying if there was a way to explain why you did what you did.

Fiacre wrote...  
Pff, he's a lucky bastard getting a wife like that. Marrying Anora is just another reason to play lots of HNMs...

Is he? No, seriously, I'm asking.  I mean, yes, Anora is one of the prettiest characters in the game, if not the prettiest. She's also very, very smart and persuasive. She seems to be a good queen, too. But other than that, I can't say I see more than a power-hungry harpy in her. Personally, I wouldn't want to live near her, let alone with her. Then again, I'm not exactly a guy.

jillabender wrote...
I might be off-base, but I actually think that the line you're talking about ("Everyone is out for themselves. You should learn that.") comes across as more harsh than the writers may have realized or intended because of the way it's worded. I agree that the line comes across as unnecessarily harsh and insensitive because it's worded in such a terse way, but in a conversation with the Warden afterwards, Alistair actually thanks him or her for helping him to realize that he needs to, as he puts it, "look out for myself more."

Thank you for your reply. And for the tip, as well. It's not that I wouldn't want to harden Alistair. To tell the truth, I also wished he had said something to his sister. It was just so sad how she treated him... Seriously, this game is not good for my nerves.
However, I digress. It was the way to harden him I didn't like, just as you say. Maybe you're right, maybe it's not meant as badly as it sounds. It does look inappropriate though. The modded options seem to feel better, yes. Many thanks, I'll have a look on that.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 16 juin 2012 - 07:29 .

[Fiacre]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...

I see. I guess I need more playthroughs then because I didn't get on the bad side of his yet. During my first playthrough, he was kind, cute and funny and he sacrificed his life to save my Warden's without a second of hesitation, without giving her a chance to even try offering hers. Long story short, it was extremely easy to start liking him a lot. I guess I should thank the fact most of my characters would do anything not to have to kill mothers and children, as practical and logical choice it might otherwise be. (I like to pretend that the rest of the party, I didn't take with me, keeps Connor at bay. )

Though you're very right with the "human characters" thing. A human
character doesn't equal a likeable character. I just tried to point out
that some of Alistair's flaws are quite understandable, given his past,
the circumstances. I'm not saying that all of them are, of course. Nor
that everyone should love him for that or anything.

Same here, actually I think my Dwarf Noble might actually sacrifice Isolde, but as of now none of my characters could bring themselves to do that or kill Connor.  (And I pretend the same c: It just makes more sense that way.)

And while Alistair isn't my favourite companion, I actually like him well enough -- though it always depends heavily on how much my PC likes him. my current mage gets along well with him, while my canon HN disliked him from the start (and thought he was whiny...) and disliked him even more after the Duncan conversation, which translated into me liking Alistair less as well. I don't actually think he's whiny myself, my problems are more that I don't find most of his jokes very funny and things like him not telling you about stuff like the Calling until ypu specifically ask (and I think you need to get his approval up for that conversation, too), especially since you ask during the first ight in camp and he mentions dying young. Of course the writing is at fault there, too, since you're not allowed to ask him to elaborate right there, IIRC.

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote...
You're so very right. That's a problem I encounter fairly often. Sometimes, you just lack a means to defend yourself in an argument or whatever situation. I know that the writers simply can't catch whatever thought a player might have in their head but it's still very frustrating not to be able to justify your decisions and let characters pick on you instead, absolutely defenseless. Some characters would definitely be less annoying if there was a way to explain why you did what you did.

Ugh, yes. I love morrigan and Zevran, but when I get the option to tell her I agree about the Circle tower, pretty much say "Shut up, harpy" or call her cruel, I can't help but roll my eyes. Would it be that hard to let you disagree politely? She can still disapprive, but that doesn't mean your character has to get insulting just because they disagree with her. And there's when Zevran says that surely your past wasn't all sunshine and rainbows either and once again, no way to nicely say that you actually liked your life (and an HN would conceivably have a very happy childhood, and I don' see how what happened necessarily nullifies that -- but again, you either say yes, or you act like a jerk.) Just like you can call Jowan out on using blood magic, but not on lying to you... even though that was the main reason for my mage to rat him out to Irving and the game does let you complain about it just after Jowan's escape.

Is he? No, seriously, I'm asking.  I mean, yes, Anora is one of the prettiest characters in the game, if not the prettiest. She's also very, very smart and persuasive. She seems to be a good queen, too. But other than that, I can't say I see more than a power-hungry harpy in her. Personally, I wouldn't want to live near her, let alone with her. Then again, I'm not exactly a guy.

Neither am I But I lover her character enough, I'd marry her in a heartbeat. I never saw her as a power-hungry harpy since I found her desire to stay in power rather understanable -- especially since she knows that Alistair doesn't know a thing about being King (and unhardened Alistair leaves everything to his Chancellor .-- even hardened Alistair does... at least if that Chancellor is the PC) and assumes she'll be executed if Alistair takes power. She also seems to warm up to you in Awakening, where she seems to be genuinely worried at the beginning and the Epilogue mentions that even she smiled when greeting her husband upon his return to Denerim. And she's cute when you ask her if there's anything she wants in Eamon's estate or when she admits that she's nervous about the coronation because you're intimidating.

[Aluvious]

Anora is very manipulative, and you find that out when you tell Ser Cauthrien about Anora's "capture". She stabs you in the back and legs it all the way back to Arl Eamon's estate while you and your companions get cut to ribbons. She wasn't being imprisoned by Arl Howe at all, and she sends you out to cut the man's head off to make you think she was in danger.

But even still, marrying Alistair to Anora is the best option for Ferelden, judging by the epilogues. I sure as hell wouldn't want my Warden near the backstabbing harpy, though.

Modifié par Aluvious, 17 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[Fiacre]

A friendly Loghain does tell you, though, that Howe suggested killing Anora and Anora knew of it. And if you told Cauthrien about her after Anora just told you that she can't be found out, well... There's a reason why she thanks you for reacting the way you did if you surrender or fight Cauthrien instead.
Anyway, I wouldn't deny that she's manipulative (it's very attractive ), she's a politician, after all, and she's actually good at it. And since she has little reason to backstab my Warden, who has shown to be absolutely loyal and is far more useful to her when she keeps him than when she backstabs him, and Awakening implies she warms up to him... I'm not too worried about him.

[Gamer Ftw]

Well,he focuses on his grief for a man he's known for six months,and ignores the fact that the human nobles family was just slaughtered.
He is a 20 something year old man that still needs to latch onto a father figure.
He's acts like a whiny child.
He wants to leave a demon possessed boy for a trip to the circle tower when everyone could be dead by the time they got back. He says something at the beginning about wardens having to make the hard choices the seems to forget that if you make an unpleasant one.
He lets you do horrific things and only speaks up if it affects him. [he can help slaughter the dalish without a second thought] He acts like he's a little kid in an adventure story where he is a hero instead of a warden doing whatever it takes to stop the blight.
Also when my mage let Anora execute him it was one of my all time favorite moments.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 19 juin 2012 - 04:19 .

[mopotter]

Aluvious wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

He gets very whiny if you spare loghain, even though its obviously the practical thing to do.

It's understandable why he reacts that way. Loghain pretty much turned Alistair's world upside down when he left everyone in Ostagar to die. His father figure along with his fellow Grey Wardens. Simply letting Loghain live wasn't the only thing that ticked off Alistair. It was letting him live AND making him a Grey Warden, what Alistair considered to be the highest honor that could be given. Making Loghain, a traitor and a slaver, a Warden, also shatters this viewpoint, which is also why he "quits" the Grey Wardens if Loghain is recruited.

I actually hated that if you were topped out as LI or friend he totally left.  He should have fought somewhere else and then apologized after Loghain dies  and you survive, which he does if you are his best friend and he marries the queen.  He told my Elf that it was the right decision when I talked to him after the battle.  Even accepted it when both Loghain and I survived though he wasn't  overly joyful.  If you didn't have a topped out LI or friendship, then he should have quit.

I don't consider him whiny.

[jillabender]

Fiacre wrote…

A friendly Loghain does tell you, though, that Howe suggested killing Anora and Anora knew of it. And if you told Cauthrien about her after Anora just told you that she can't be found out, well... There's a reason why she thanks you for reacting the way you did if you surrender or fight Cauthrien instead.

Anyway, I wouldn't deny that she's manipulative (it's very attractive ), she's a politician, after all, and she's actually good at it. And since she has little reason to backstab my Warden, who has shown to be absolutely loyal and is far more useful to her when she keeps him than when she backstabs him, and Awakening implies she warms up to him... I'm not too worried about him.

I agree – a Warden who reveals Anora to Cauthrien is putting her at risk, so I don't blame her at all for using quick thinking to defend herself. Similarly, I don't really hold it against her if she turns against my Warden at the Landsmeet – after all, many people in Anora's position, faced with the Warden's refusal to support her bid for the throne, or with his or her insistence on her father's execution, would assume that he, or she, sees her as a threat, and might even be planning her execution. It's hardly a paranoid assumption, given that Eamon calls for her execution when she refuses to swear fealty to Alistair. And let's not forget that the Warden has the option to betray Anora, as well, by promising to support her and then crowning Alistair.

Modifié par jillabender, 25 juin 2012 - 07:44 .

[Caiden012]

Alistair is one of my favorite characters. I love his dialogue and always try to befriend him.

[jillabender]

Vanilka of the Sword Coast wrote…

Thank you for your reply. And for the tip, as well. It's not that I wouldn't want to harden Alistair. To tell the truth, I also wished he had said something to his sister. It was just so sad how she treated him... Seriously, this game is not good for my nerves.

However, I digress. It was the way to harden him I didn't like, just as you say. Maybe you're right, maybe it's not meant as badly as it sounds. It does look inappropriate though. The modded options seem to feel better, yes. Many thanks, I'll have a look on that.

No problem – I'm always happy to spread the word about cool mods!

Modifié par jillabender, 30 juin 2012 - 01:54 .

[Fauxnormal]

[quote]Gamer Ftw wrote...

Well,he focuses on his grief for a man he's known for six months,and ignores the fact that the human nobles family was just slaughtered.
[/quote]

Game mechanics, you moron. No one in that party really focuses on the warden's issues; no one. 
[quote]

He is a 20 something year old man that still needs to latch onto a father figure.[/quote]

You're the one with some issues, if you think a young adult male shouldn't need a father figure. And he's not twenty something; he's about eighteen-nineteen. [/quote]


[quote]He's acts like a whiny child.[/quote]

Oh, by mourning the loss of people he loved? God forbid. Or is it because he's conflicted and frightnened about the furture and his role in it, and actually voices this? Oh, the humanity. Or MAYBE it's because he speaks up when he's upset about something. WHAT A WHINY BRAT.
[quote]
He wants to leave a demon possessed boy for a trip to the circle tower when everyone could be dead by the time they got back. He says something at the beginning about wardens having to make the hard choices the seems to forget that if you make an unpleasant one.[/quote]

Once again, this is gameplay mechanics, you twit. Someone had to offer the suggestion for your character to make a choice. And yeah, he gets upset if you take the lazy, easy path and slaughter an innocent child.

I think he has the right to **** at you for that.

[quote]
He lets you do horrific things and only speaks up if it affects him. [he can help slaughter the dalish without a second thought] [/quote]


Gameplay mechanics. AGAIN.


[quot]He acts like he's a little kid in an adventure story where he is a hero instead of a warden doing whatever it takes to stop the blight.[/quote]

No, he doesn't.


[quote] Also when my mage let Anora execute him it was one of my all time favorite moments.

[/quote]

I'm thinking you're about ten.

[Fiacre]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Game mechanics, you moron. No one in that party really focuses on the warden's issues; no one.

For someone who accuses others of immaturity you sure like hurling insults at people.

And some companions do speak about what happened. Zevran says that surely your life wasn't all nice and easy, with the HN Morrigan expressess her sympathies for your mother's death when she asks after her and with Wynne you can talk about it and how you feel about being a Grey Warden (though her advice isn't necessarily the best). I haven't gotten all of Alistair's conversations, certainly not with a HN, but the only thing I can remember regarding your past when talking with him are such gems like "Have you ever lost someone important?" and when he asks if there's a place you consider home.

They don't focus on it, but Alistair when you're a HN and Wynne with her fate speech in general are the ones that come off the worst.

You're the one with some issues, if you think a young adult male shouldn't need a father figure. And he's not twenty something; he's about eighteen-nineteen.

Do we know that for sure? He certainly looks older. And I'm not sure, did we get confirmation that he really is Fiona's child or is that just the popular assumption?

Oh, by mourning the loss of people he loved? God forbid. Or is it because he's conflicted and frightnened about the furture and his role in it, and actually voices this? Oh, the humanity. Or MAYBE it's because he speaks up when he's upset about something. WHAT A WHINY BRAT.

What gets me is the little regard for the Warden's feelings he has in turn -- maybe the least out of all companions. I've not once seen him show any indication that he actually pays attention to that -- and he has multiple chances to show concern -- while of course your supposed to pay attention to his and be understanding. Well, maybe that one time he complains about Morrigan being blunt about Fergus. Then he goes on to forget about him the next night or so. Oghren, for example, might not talk about  it either, but you never talk about yourself with him. You do at times with Alistair. And I prefer not talking about it at all, then having someone forget my family has been murdered.

Once again, this is gameplay mechanics, you twit. Someone had to offer
the suggestion for your character to make a choice. And yeah, he gets
upset if you take the lazy, easy path and slaughter an innocent child.

I think he has the right to **** at you for that.

Someone else could do it. You can't balem all of the character fault on game mechanics. And no, it's not lazy -- you don't have any guarantee that the demon won't attack everyone as sson as you're gone. That everything goes well is not something your character can know in advance -- as such it's a perfectly valid in character choice to decide that going to the Circle Tower poses too much risk to the village and therefore it's better to adhere to the law and kill the abomination.

And his moral outrage would be better if it were actually that and if it weren't more about what the Arl will think of him.

Gameplay mechanics. AGAIN.
 

I've never slaughtered the Dalish, does he argue against it? I know he doesn't if you kill the werewolves. He just says "I'm sorry, my Lady." to the Lady of the Forest and IIRC didn't even disapprove. Leliana didn't say anything but I got a -10 from her.


Honestly, all the time people complain he whines, he's understandably upset, but that doesn't mean it can't be annoying. Some people aren't big on being so emotional; I'm more the type to try and repress things until I'm alone myself (and sometimes even then). Alistair's emotionality does nothing for me, though I don't think of him as whiny. (His voice does grate from time to  time though. Am I the only one who doesn't like it? I mean, it's fantastic acting, but I just don't like how it sounds, especially during the emotional moments.) He comes off as a lot more likeable when I'm not a HN though, because he simply has too many blunders then., imo. And I really dislike it when he goes all "But I need you!" during the conversation with Flemeth if you say you're outta there, for example to loook for your brother. Understandable, yes, but still.

I don't think he's whiny but I do think he's rather self-centered.