121 réponses à ce sujet

[Mcfly616]

@jeweledleah... a Jedi's duty is to protect the Republic.....yet Anakin is picked by Palpatine, not only because Palpatine needs an apprentice.....not only because Anakin is an exceptional Jedi.....but also because he has doubts....and Palpatine uses that......and he had it in mind all along....and it went without saying.....

Funny that certain people need every little thing told to them from the devs, instead of being able to use common sense.....

To say that the VS'doubts towards Shepard, had Nothing to do with Udina's choice, is quite naive ....and ignorant....considering no direct information is given, and the fact that those doubts are directly shown to the player

You're in denial. Maybe you're a VS fanboy or fangirl......either way....doesn't change the fact that the VS had their doubts about Shepard.....and the fact that nobody knows "if" that doubt played a role in Udina's decision....nor does it change the fact that it "could've"

[Russalka]

Because he is bisexual and in a mid-life crisis. He got a bit of a nip and tuck and dyed his hair so he could get all freaky with the Virmire survivor. You could imagine what was going on in the embassies during late hours when Nudina wanted some personal body guarding. After all, Spectres do what ever the Council wants in what ever shady means necessary.

Modifié par Russalka, 11 juin 2012 - 10:40 .

[Ageless Face]

Mcfly616 wrote...

@jeweledleah... a Jedi's duty is to protect the Republic.....yet Anakin is picked by Palpatine, not only because Palpatine needs an apprentice.....not only because Anakin is an exceptional Jedi.....but also because he has doubts....and Palpatine uses that......and he had it in mind all along....and it went without saying.....

Funny that certain people need every little thing told to them from the devs, instead of being able to use common sense.....

To say that the VS'doubts towards Shepard, had Nothing to do with Udina's choice, is quite naive ....and ignorant....considering no direct information is given, and the fact that those doubts are directly shown to the player

You're in denial. Maybe you're a VS fanboy or fangirl......either way....doesn't change the fact that the VS had their doubts about Shepard.....and the fact that nobody knows "if" that doubt played a role in Udina's decision....nor does it change the fact that it "could've"

And how would Udina even know about Shepard interfering?

Even if he did know from some magical reason, Kaidan and Ashley's loyalty depends on how you you treat them. Treat them nicely, and Udina took a very big risk. If he was so smart to know that Shepard will come, or that Kaidan and Ashley are even doubting Shepard, then he should have also known this. He should have known Kaidan and Ashley are not completely doubting Shepard, the risks are too high, he could have used someone else. It's easy to bring Kaidan and Ash to turn against Udina. If Udina only wanted to bring someone that couldn't trust Shepard, he could just have taken Kai Leng, and disguesed him as some exceptional soldier that had complete loyalty for the council, and then be done with it.



Wait, why DIDN'T Udina do it? 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 11 juin 2012 - 11:01 .

[jeweledleah]

Mcfly616 wrote...

@jeweledleah... a Jedi's duty is to protect the Republic.....yet Anakin is picked by Palpatine, not only because Palpatine needs an apprentice.....not only because Anakin is an exceptional Jedi.....but also because he has doubts....and Palpatine uses that......and he had it in mind all along....and it went without saying.....

Funny that certain people need every little thing told to them from the devs, instead of being able to use common sense.....

To say that the VS'doubts towards Shepard, had Nothing to do with Udina's choice, is quite naive ....and ignorant....considering no direct information is given, and the fact that those doubts are directly shown to the player

You're in denial. Maybe you're a VS fanboy or fangirl......either way....doesn't change the fact that the VS had their doubts about Shepard.....and the fact that nobody knows "if" that doubt played a role in Udina's decision....nor does it change the fact that it "could've"

you claim it was a major concideration.  i claim it was an afterthought.  bonus at best.  major concideration was loyalty to the alliance. to the council. to their commitment to getting a job done, despite possible personal attachments. NOT becasue of them.  DESPITE them.  its the major difference between VS and say Liara or Garrus.  Liara and Garrus are loyal to individuals.  Shepard is up to the player.  VS? their loyalty is to the organization they gave their oath to.  its one of their defining characteristics.  that's why they make a great potential specte.  becasue they WILL get the job done, personal relationships nonwithstanding.  otherwise, Udina woudln't have chosen VS that is friendly with Shepard.  you know that same VS that tells Shepard that they were wrong about them if you keep visiting them. 

you have your cause and effect bakwards.

especialy with your example of Anakin.. who was picked becasue his loyalty was to a specific person rather then the order and palpatine played on it.  becasue Palpatine knew that Anakin would throw an entire Jedi order under a bus, for Amidala.  a direct oposite of Kaidan/Ashley's "I know where my loyalties lie, i'm an alliance soldier, always will be" modus operandi.

[nos_astra]

Mcfly616 wrote...
@jeweledleah... a Jedi's duty is to protect the Republic.....yet Anakin is picked by Palpatine, not only because Palpatine needs an apprentice.....not only because Anakin is an exceptional Jedi.....but also because he has doubts....and Palpatine uses that......and he had it in mind all along....and it went without saying.....

I really don't see how this analogy applies.

Kaidan/Ashley don't doubt the Alliance, they are loyal to both the Alliance and the Council. Udina doesn't want to pull them over to the dark side side because that would be silly as they don't trust Cerberus.

Udina doesn't even know there will be a stand-off between the VS and Shepard. Or that Shepard would be at the Citadel, trying to stop Cerberus when there's so many things to be done. It's not something Udina can even plan on. He surely didn't plan on being discovered by anyone, right?

It has nothing to do with fanboying/fangirling. Did Udina choose the VS so he can use their loyalty towards the Alliance/the Council against them? Sure, well probably. It's all very flimsy and I don't really see what he was trying to accomplish in the first place but recruiting them for their trust issues with Shepard seems odd. If anything he should have had made sure the Spectre has no ties to Shepard at all.

I admit my memory is a muddy and the Citadel Coup isn't exactly well written.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 juin 2012 - 11:05 .

[Mcfly616]

Ahh its all good....I see its the same 3 people disagreeing with me over and over and over.....saw quite a few people point out the same points I've made throughout the thread, on the last page.....

Oh...jeweledleah....never did I ever say it was a "major" consideration....not once.....just another one of your "interpretations"(stop putting words in my mouth...all I simply said was that that the VS had doubts and that it "could've" played into Udina's decision.....which you CAN'T prove or disprove(hate to burst your bubble).....Udina's motivations are never directly addressed....sorry

[Mcfly616]

klarabella wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
@jeweledleah... a Jedi's duty is to protect the Republic.....yet Anakin is picked by Palpatine, not only because Palpatine needs an apprentice.....not only because Anakin is an exceptional Jedi.....but also because he has doubts....and Palpatine uses that......and he had it in mind all along....and it went without saying.....

I really don't see how this analogy applies.

Kaidan/Ashley don't doubt the Alliance, they are loyal to both the Alliance and the Council. Udina doesn't want to pull them over to the dark side side because that would be silly as they don't trust Cerberus.

Udina doesn't even know there will be a stand-off between the VS and Shepard. Or that Shepard would be at the Citadel, trying to stop Cerberus when there's so many things to be done. It's not something Udina can even plan on. He surely didn't plan on being discovered by anyone, right?

It has nothing to do with fanboying/fangirling. Did Udina choose the VS so he can use their loyalty towards the Alliance/the Council against them? Sure, well probably. It's all very flimsy and I don't really see what he was trying to accomplish in the first place but recruiting them for their trust issues with Shepard seems odd. If anything he should have had made sure the Spectre has no ties to Shepard at all.

I admit my memory is a muddy and the Citadel Coup isn't exactly well written.

Whoa bro.....you're taking things way too literally.....or deeply....

It was a simple analogy....


Palpy is a man in power, who schemes and manipulates someones mental and emotional weaknesses......Udina is a man of power, who is obviously scheming, and was in a position to "possibly" manipulate the VS doubts and their loyalty, and their duty.....

Simple....analogy is obvious.....stop twisting my words.....its a sloppy way of trying to discredit someone

[jeweledleah]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Ahh its all good....I see its the same 3 people disagreeing with me over and over and over.....saw quite a few people point out the same points I've made throughout the thread, on the last page.....

Oh...jeweledleah....never did I ever say it was a "major" consideration....not once.....just another one of your "interpretations"(stop putting words in my mouth...all I simply said was that that the VS had doubts and that it "could've" played into Udina's decision.....which you CAN'T prove or disprove(hate to burst your bubble).....Udina's motivations are never directly addressed....sorry

so its my word against your word then?

well.  you can keep your interpretation.  I find it unreasonable and convoluted. kinda like when they thought in medival times that rats were a cause of bubonic plague when in reality they just spread the bacteria causing it, via flees.

so yes, i very much doubt that VS's doubt in Shepard had much to do with Udina chosing them as a spectre. Shepard wasn't even supposed to be on a Citadel, Shepard was supposed to be out in a galaxy, fighting reapers and uniting various aliens for a comon cause.

their dislike of Cerberus COULD have been a motivation though.  since they would have been killed along with the rest of the council, thus removing a major thorn in Cerberus's plans.

[Mcfly616]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Udina needed someone stupid enough to still suspect Shepard to be working for cerberus and to have plot the whole Citadel attack.

Quite possibly

[Dendio1]

Shepard reaches legend status by end of the game. When you get a *The* before your name, you know you've hit it big.

[Mcfly616]

jeweledleah wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Ahh its all good....I see its the same 3 people disagreeing with me over and over and over.....saw quite a few people point out the same points I've made throughout the thread, on the last page.....

Oh...jeweledleah....never did I ever say it was a "major" consideration....not once.....just another one of your "interpretations"(stop putting words in my mouth...all I simply said was that that the VS had doubts and that it "could've" played into Udina's decision.....which you CAN'T prove or disprove(hate to burst your bubble).....Udina's motivations are never directly addressed....sorry

so its my word against your word then?

well.  you can keep your interpretation.  I find it unreasonable and convoluted. kinda like when they thought in medival times that rats were a cause of bubonic plague when in reality they just spread the bacteria causing it, via flees.

so yes, i very much doubt that VS's doubt in Shepard had much to do with Udina chosing them as a spectre. Shepard wasn't even supposed to be on a Citadel, Shepard was supposed to be out in a galaxy, fighting reapers and uniting various aliens for a comon cause.

their dislike of Cerberus COULD have been a motivation though.  since they would have been killed along with the rest of the council, thus removing a major thorn in Cerberus's plans.

Cool. Thanks for sharing

[Archonsg]

As mentioned above, Udina just want someone who he thinks he can manipulate and set against Shepard.
Point of note, Udina doesn't care if the VS can actually stop Shepard, just engage and slow Shepard down or better yet, kill each other.

[Mcfly616]

Ooh yeah.....right.....why would.Shepard ever be on.the Citadel?

It's not like hes in and out of that place for supplies and delivering crap to people.....or meeting with politicians and shooting the **** with Bailey....


It's not like the Citadel is a hub world or anything....


You're right....why would Shepard ever be on the Citadel? Hmm

[Mcfly616]

Archonsg wrote...

As mentioned above, Udina just want someone who he thinks he can manipulate and set against Shepard.
Point of note, Udina doesn't care if the VS can actually stop Shepard, just engage and slow Shepard down or better yet, kill each other.

This.....

Thank you.....I've been having the 3 stooges tell me all night about how that's not even a possibility and that its "convoluted" haha.....umm no, its not complex at all.....it happens in real life everyday.....really simple actually

[Coachdongwiffle]

same reason Commander Bailey was commander he knew it would have a better shot of making his coup succesfful

[NRieh]

Take away the doubts about Shepard then. Would Udina still make the VS a spectre? Yes, of course. He needs a human agent, and the VS is perfect, capable and is available for the job.

I ask you, people, once again to wake up. "VS" is NOT a single person, it can not be treated as one (not in ME3). The thing that plotwise they are interchangable do not make them same, as they never were and never will be. It's pretty same as treating each squad member as "squad member", just because main plot does not depend on whom you prefer to fight missions with. "I went with two squad members, they had weapons" - sounds cool?

What's that so special about Ashley Williams (exept for her spacequeen outfit, new make-up and ridiculous rocket-jumping into commanders in 6 months) that makes her "capable" and also "perfect"? What makes her same "capable" as Kaidan Alenko, who had slow but constant promotion, ending up one rank higher then Shep? Her personality, family history and deep spiritual soul has nothing to do with officer skills (and good shooting and loyality to alliance is not a good reason for promotion, especially - for SUCH promotion), and it never appeared in ME1 that she was anything but good "point and shoot" and "follow orders". Not to mention later drunk scene.

How can you seriously discuss Undina's possible motivation about those TWO characters as one damn person called "VS" (yes I know what those letters mean)? And don't tell me that's how BW treated them, it does not change things. It's stupid, it's ugly and it does not have any in-game sense. Did not have even back in ME2 on Horizon.

[HBC Dresden]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

As mentioned above, Udina just want someone who he thinks he can manipulate and set against Shepard.
Point of note, Udina doesn't care if the VS can actually stop Shepard, just engage and slow Shepard down or better yet, kill each other.

This.....

Thank you.....I've been having the 3 stooges tell me all night about how that's not even a possibility and that its "convoluted" haha.....umm no, its not complex at all.....it happens in real life everyday.....really simple actually

Yup, this was my thought immediately, especially since the VS is Shepard's only squadmate that questions his or her's loyalty. Don't know why this isn't obvious for others. What I don't get is why Cerberus was trying to take the Citadel in the first place. If this took place after Thessia and their retrieval of the Catalyst's whereabouts, it would make total sense. But it does not.

[nos_astra]

Mcfly616 wrote...
It's not like the Citadel is a hub world or anything....

You're right....why would Shepard ever be on the Citadel? Hmm

It's a matter of being on the Citadel at the exact day and hour. Yes, the game makes Shepard the center of the universe and everything important is bound to happen in front of him but since Udina doesn't have meta-gaming knowledge he can't expect Shepard to be on the Citadel, considering traveling across the galaxy takes hours at best, days at worst.

It's called gameplay and story segregation.

[jeweledleah]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Ooh yeah.....right.....why would.Shepard ever be on.the Citadel?

It's not like hes in and out of that place for supplies and delivering crap to people.....or meeting with politicians and shooting the **** with Bailey....


It's not like the Citadel is a hub world or anything....


You're right....why would Shepard ever be on the Citadel? Hmm

right.  so you schedule the coup when you know the one person who can prevent it from suceeding could be there?  seriously?

you must think Udina is a complete moron, rather then cunning politician that he was supposed to be (who KNEW that Shepard was preoccupied trying to juggle alliance between Turians, Salarians and Krogan.)

ME3 doesn't do him justice, and it never explains WHY he assisted Cerberus in a first place, but concider this.  they take that elevator to what they think is a transport that will take them to safety.  transport that they find out is damaged.  Shepard wasn't supposed to be the one coming out of the next elevator.  Kai Leng was, with his group of phantoms.  who would have killed the rest of the council along with VS, if not for Shepard slowing them down, giving c-sec a chance to regroup and show up with reinforcements.

that confrontation?  it shouldn't have happened if everything had gone according to plan.  but you want to keep bashing VS and keep bashing Udina.. well then...

[Ageless Face]

Nrieh wrote...


I ask you, people, once again to wake up. "VS" is NOT a single person, it can not be treated as one (not in ME3). The thing that plotwise they are interchangable do not make them same, as they never were and never will be. It's pretty same as treating each squad member as "squad member", just because main plot does not depend on whom you prefer to fight missions with. "I went with two squad members, they had weapons" - sounds cool?  

What's that so special about Ashley Williams (exept for her spacequeen outfit, new make-up and ridiculous rocket-jumping into commanders in 6 months) that makes her "capable" and also "perfect"? What makes her same "capable" as Kaidan Alenko, who had slow but constant promotion, ending up one rank higher then Shep? Her personality, family history and deep spiritual soul has nothing to do with officer skills (and good shooting and loyality to alliance is not a good reason for promotion, especially - for SUCH promotion), and it never appeared in ME1 that she was anything but good "point and shoot" and "follow orders". Not to mention later drunk scene.

How can you seriously discuss Undina's possible motivation about those TWO characters as one damn person called "VS" (yes I know what those letters mean)? And don't tell me that's how BW treated them, it does not change things. It's stupid, it's ugly and it does not have any in-game sense. Did not have even back in ME2 on Horizon.

Ashley is younger than both Kaidan and Shepard. She is about the same age as Shepard when s/he is LT. commander. She has been through a lot. She survived through hell countless times, she is a sole survivor (Shepard can also be, that's why s/he can become a spectre). Ashley helped Shepard in the hunt against Saren. Ashley is also decribed as a very good soldier, we don't only see it when she is a squad member. And she is also loyal to the Alliance and the council.

I will agree about the drunk scene. I hate it, and I truly think it's unprofessional, as well as her clothes. However, Shepard can get drunk countless times, even on the Ship with Chakwas (I know you can choose not to drink, but it's still possible). I don't like it, but the unprofessionalism is not only goes for Ash.  

Modifié par HagarIshay, 11 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[InHarmsWay]

klarabella wrote...

I don't see what Shepard has done that deserves blind trust.

[NRieh]

@HagarIshay
Shep does not get drunk, (s)he just pretends (s)he's dizzy (with Chakwas). And, apparently no one ever found Shep lying on the floor aboard with an empty bottle.

My main point is not that Ash worse or better, but that they ARE much different with Kaidan (no matter if I like her or not).And this whole discussion is built on an assumption, that there is no Ash or Kaidan at all - just some wierd person called VS.

Modifié par Nrieh, 11 juin 2012 - 12:18 .

[Made Nightwing]

InHarmsWay wrote...

klarabella wrote...

I don't see what Shepard has done that deserves blind trust.

You'll notice that the bolded word was blind, not trust.

[semidefinite]

I'm kinda surprised that everyone seems to assume that Shepard coming out of that elevator was part of Udina's plan in any way.

I always assumed that the plan was that Shepard runs around between Palavan and Tuchanka while Cerberus takes the Citadel undisturbed. Evil Cerberus assassins then manage to shoot three of the councilors, the VS heroically manages to shoot/shoo away the Cerberus goons and and is the hero of the day, with Udina the last living member of the council getting victim popularity.

Shepard coming back after that is irrelevant because it's too late to do anything and if Shepard gets too nosy there's always the option of removing Spectre status. Again.