121 réponses à ce sujet

[DuskWanderer]

I'm surprised everyone thinks the VS is just some unwitting pawn in Udina's game against Shepard, as if the only thing on Udina's mind in Shepard. Check out the Codex: Udina was attempting to get Council fleets to get off their asses and save Earth. The councilors, however, were more interested in fortifying their own borders. Chosing the VS as Spectre, just like the coup, is just Udina's way of trying to get the Council to move.

Why Udina chose them is simple: First off, the number of Spectres has probably dropped considerably since the war started, they're going to need more. Secondly, the huge Spectre ceremony is something that's going to occupy the attention of people on the Citadel and prevent rioting about the war. Third, the VS possesses all the qualities of Shepard (Being part of the huge mission to save Saren) without the drawbacks (being associated with Cerberus). Udina probably picked them just because it was a plan that had a high chance of success.

For Kaidan's sake, it makes a lot of sense to choose him. He's a major and possesses a long line of military commendations (something the turian councilor would appreciate), and he's both a biotic and a diplomat (very much like an asari). I'm not too sure about Ashley.

Udina probably believes that Kaidan, who was on Earth, is from Earth, and saw it fall, would be very interested in saving humanity and his home, and would bring more attention to the Council from his missions, hopefully, get them off of their asses. He does the same thing with Shepard, too. Udina probably just comes to the same conclusion as the asari councilor, and thinks that Shepard bringing in the krogan will make it fail. Diplomacy fails, Udina thinks of another solution, thus the coup.

Udina had planned for the coup to be quiet, and bloodless, it was Kai Leng who turned it into a slaughter. I doubt Udina planned on killing the VS anymore than he planned on killing Shepard. The plan merely unravelled, and Udina tried to turn the VS against Shepard simply because Shepard was planning to kill Udina.

It's disturbing to see how blind VS hatred overrides common sense

[FlyingSquirrel]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Do you really think Liara or Miranda or Garrus or Tali would've held a gun to Shepard, in defense of Udina....even for a split second(as the VS did)???!


Hell NO. If any of those characters were guarding Udina, and Shep bursted through the door, they'd be like: do your thing Commander.....


Now do you really think Udina wasn't using the VS' doubts to his advantage? Come on......common sense

Miranda is a terrorist who's spent most of her life going against the Alliance. The rest are aliens and don't care. None are comparable.

I think we have to keep in mind the more mundane politics here too. Udina wants another human Spectre who has experience fighting the Reapers, and based on what we saw in ME1 and ME2, appointing a Spectre is a decision of the entire Council. There's no way they'd ever approve Miranda (assuming Udina even knows who she is and would want her in the position, but he probably wouldn't trust her either, or she him).

[NRieh]

Third, the VS possesses all the qualities of Shepard

Could you be so kind to tell us which exactly "qualities of Shepard" (which one, by the way? Mine?Yours? Fem?Bro?) Kaidan AND Ashley posess?..

[Mcfly616]

jeweledleah wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Ooh yeah.....right.....why would.Shepard ever be on.the Citadel?

It's not like hes in and out of that place for supplies and delivering crap to people.....or meeting with politicians and shooting the **** with Bailey....


It's not like the Citadel is a hub world or anything....


You're right....why would Shepard ever be on the Citadel? Hmm

right.  so you schedule the coup when you know the one person who can prevent it from suceeding could be there?  seriously?

you must think Udina is a complete moron, rather then cunning politician that he was supposed to be (who KNEW that Shepard was preoccupied trying to juggle alliance between Turians, Salarians and Krogan.)

ME3 doesn't do him justice, and it never explains WHY he assisted Cerberus in a first place, but concider this.  they take that elevator to what they think is a transport that will take them to safety.  transport that they find out is damaged.  Shepard wasn't supposed to be the one coming out of the next elevator.  Kai Leng was, with his group of phantoms.  who would have killed the rest of the council along with VS, if not for Shepard slowing them down, giving c-sec a chance to regroup and show up with reinforcements.

that confrontation?  it shouldn't have happened if everything had gone according to plan.  but you want to keep bashing VS and keep bashing Udina.. well then...

Listen lady.....idk who the **** you think you are......but you're an obvious fan girl.....and a straight up troll....never did I ever "bash" the VS or Udina.....not once......second of all, your twisting things and once agaon putting words in my mouth.....never did I ever say that Udina did or didn't expect Shepard to be on the Citadel.....the fact of the matter is, Shepard could show up at any time.....that's Udina's chance to take.....I never said he chose the VS because he "foresaw" a showdown between them and Shepard....


Read up and get your facts straight....or just shut your mouth.....you're not getting anywhere by twisting what I say.....sorry

[Iakus]

[quote]Nrieh wrote...


[quote]Third, the VS possesses all the qualities of Shepard[/quote]
Could you be so kind to tell us which exactly "qualities of Shepard" (which one, by the way? Mine?Yours? Fem?Bro?) Kaidan AND Ashley posess?.. [/quote]

As I stated a few pages back

[quote]The VS is unique.   Not just in ability or in what they've experienced,  but iin  what they represent.  They stood for humanity at a key moment. They're more than just a soldier...they're a symbol.  And we don't know if the Reapers understand fear. But the VS helped killed one of them. They have to respect that.
[/quote

[Mcfly616]

semidefinite wrote...

I'm kinda surprised that everyone seems to assume that Shepard coming out of that elevator was part of Udina's plan in any way.

I always assumed that the plan was that Shepard runs around between Palavan and Tuchanka while Cerberus takes the Citadel undisturbed. Evil Cerberus assassins then manage to shoot three of the councilors, the VS heroically manages to shoot/shoo away the Cerberus goons and and is the hero of the day, with Udina the last living member of the council getting victim popularity.

Shepard coming back after that is irrelevant because it's too late to do anything and if Shepard gets too nosy there's always the option of removing Spectre status. Again.

I never "assumed" that at all.....idk where people are getting that from.....


All I said was that the VS doubts in Shepard, couldve possibly been taken into consideration when Udina made his decision.....


Somehow this translates to the VS fanboys and girl "Udina picked the VS because he's foreseen the future and Shepard will intervene in the coup"


Never was that said though......they must be smoking the good stuff....

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Listen lady.....idk who the **** you think you are......but you're an obvious fan girl.....and a straight up troll....never did I ever "bash" the VS or Udina.....not once......second of all, your twisting things and once agaon putting words in my mouth.....never did I ever say that Udina did or didn't expect Shepard to be on the Citadel.....the fact of the matter is, Shepard could show up at any time.....that's Udina's chance to take.....I never said he chose the VS because he "foresaw" a showdown between them and Shepard....


Read up and get your facts straight....or just shut your mouth.....you're not getting anywhere by twisting what I say.....sorry

Dude...relax...

And fyi, the coup did go down while Shepard was off the Citadel, and Shep didn't exactly dock in a standard fashion when the Normandy did arrive...

[Mcfly616]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Do you really think Liara or Miranda or Garrus or Tali would've held a gun to Shepard, in defense of Udina....even for a split second(as the VS did)???!


Hell NO. If any of those characters were guarding Udina, and Shep bursted through the door, they'd be like: do your thing Commander.....


Now do you really think Udina wasn't using the VS' doubts to his advantage? Come on......common sense

Miranda is a terrorist who's spent most of her life going against the Alliance. The rest are aliens and don't care. None are comparable.

I think we have to keep in mind the more mundane politics here too. Udina wants another human Spectre who has experience fighting the Reapers, and based on what we saw in ME1 and ME2, appointing a Spectre is a decision of the entire Council. There's no way they'd ever approve Miranda (assuming Udina even knows who she is and would want her in the position, but he probably wouldn't trust her either, or she him).

You people are looking way too far into things and once again twisting what I said......the point of the post you quoted, was not me saying: "hey these guys could've and wouldve.been spectres."

Umm no. Obviously I was referring to the trust.....if you read the earlier pages, you would know that when i posted this I was saying how VS is the only squadmember who has questionable loyalty to Shepard......the only thing I was pointing out about Miranda, Liara, Garrus, Tali....is that if they were standing when Shepard busts through the door, there wouldnt have been any convo....they wouldn't have pulled a gun(like the VS)


Get it straight. I wasn't discussing who was "qualified" to be a spectre.... I was talking about Loyalty and doubts about Shepard

[jeweledleah]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Listen lady.....idk who the **** you think you are......but you're an obvious fan girl.....and a straight up troll....never did I ever "bash" the VS or Udina.....not once......second of all, your twisting things and once agaon putting words in my mouth.....never did I ever say that Udina did or didn't expect Shepard to be on the Citadel.....the fact of the matter is, Shepard could show up at any time.....that's Udina's chance to take.....I never said he chose the VS because he "foresaw" a showdown between them and Shepard....


Read up and get your facts straight....or just shut your mouth.....you're not getting anywhere by twisting what I say.....sorry

Dude...relax...

And fyi, the coup did go down while Shepard was off the Citadel, and Shep didn't exactly dock in a standard fashion when the Normandy did arrive...

but I'm a troll becasue I disagree, because I try to give Udina SOME credit for having modicum of intelligence and ability to prioritize, and becasue I say that concidering something that is not exactly relevant.. is not exactly relevant.

Kaidan and Ashley's personal relationship to Shepard is irrelevant when it comes to concidering them for spectres. professional relationship is only as relevant as the fact that they did participate in hunt for Saren, which adds to their qualifications.

however something else i have concidered and its possibility of Udina deciding that they were disposable. appointing them to spectres would still look resonable becasue they do have qualifications on paper, but if they die soon after, it will not geopardize war effort overall, as they are too new, don't have the same contacts as more experienced spectres, etc.

but once again, to reiterate.  their trust or lack of thereof in Shepard is irrelevant.  becasue Shepard is not supposed to be on a Citadel during a coup in a first place.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 11 juin 2012 - 07:09 .

[Lookout1390]

VS has done nothing to even remotely prove they are ready for Spectre status.

Thanks Bioware for making Spectre status mean jack ****.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Listen lady.....idk who the **** you think you are......but you're an obvious fan girl.....and a straight up troll....never did I ever "bash" the VS or Udina.....not once......second of all, your twisting things and once agaon putting words in my mouth.....never did I ever say that Udina did or didn't expect Shepard to be on the Citadel.....the fact of the matter is, Shepard could show up at any time.....that's Udina's chance to take.....I never said he chose the VS because he "foresaw" a showdown between them and Shepard....


Read up and get your facts straight....or just shut your mouth.....you're not getting anywhere by twisting what I say.....sorry

Dude...relax...

And fyi, the coup did go down while Shepard was off the Citadel, and Shep didn't exactly dock in a standard fashion when the Normandy did arrive...

No...dude....you relax....I've been having my words twisted for 4 pages, and your last little sentence let's me know that you haven't read a damn word I saod except for the post you quoted..... I KNOW SHEPARD WAS NOT ON THE CITADEL WHEN THE COUP STARTED!!!!!!! I've beaten the game 5 times.....i know all too well.....people are just getting mad because I'm speculating on Udinas motivations for picking the VS, and they think they know Udina's motivations, and they're a fact.....bit there's not way to prove anything. Only speculate.....



unless you've been having your words twisted for 4 pages.....don't tell me what to do.....

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

George-Kinsill wrote...

 It's irritating enough to have the VS promoted to approximitely the same rank as you, but how is it that they are recommended to be a Spectre? Right before that they simply got their @ss kicked by Eva and laid in a hospital. To be a Spectre requires a crap ton of training, experiance, intellignece and more. The Turians even have a Spectre training program and hardly even any of them make it. 

Now I don't want to be a VS hater, but what have they done? On Horizon they couldn't even get a Guardian laser properly installed and got frozen by seekers that we had to save them from. On Mars, we had to bail them out for idiotically charging a powerful opponent alone. 

While the VS can be semi-useful, they are useful as a supporting character. In no way do they meet the leadership skills and battle prowess of anyone Spectres seen through the game.

On top of that, Udina seemed to be planning a coup when he recommended the VS. Why would he do that? While they're may have been some confusion between the VS and Shepard as to the activities over the last 2 years, the VS is still part of Shepard's crew. If it weren't for the very akward timing in which Shepard showed up to stop Udina, I doubt that the VS would be suspicious of Shepard in any way.

In any case, the whole situation just seems weird to me. Anyone have any idea as to why this happened? 

The VS is unique.   Not just in ability or in what they've experienced,  but iin  what they represent.  They stood for humanity at a key moment. They're more than just a soldier...they're a symbol.  And we don't know if the Reapers understand fear. But the VS helped killed one of them. They have to respect that.

The VS did everything right. Humanity's place in the galaxy is stronger than ever, but still it's not enough. The Council will never trust Cerberus, they'll never accept their help. Even after everything humanity has accomplished. But the VS is a leader and a bloody icon. If the VS dies, then humanity might well follow.

[Mcfly616]

jeweledleah wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Listen lady.....idk who the **** you think you are......but you're an obvious fan girl.....and a straight up troll....never did I ever "bash" the VS or Udina.....not once......second of all, your twisting things and once agaon putting words in my mouth.....never did I ever say that Udina did or didn't expect Shepard to be on the Citadel.....the fact of the matter is, Shepard could show up at any time.....that's Udina's chance to take.....I never said he chose the VS because he "foresaw" a showdown between them and Shepard....


Read up and get your facts straight....or just shut your mouth.....you're not getting anywhere by twisting what I say.....sorry

Dude...relax...

And fyi, the coup did go down while Shepard was off the Citadel, and Shep didn't exactly dock in a standard fashion when the Normandy did arrive...

but I'm a troll becasue I disagree, because I try to give Udina SOME credit for having modicum of intelligence and ability to prioritize, and becasue I say that concidering something that is not exactly relevant.. is not exactly relevant.

Kaidan and Ashley's personal relationship to Shepard is irrelevant when it comes to concidering them for spectres. professional relationship is only as relevant as the fact that they did participate in hunt for Saren, which adds to their qualifications.

however something else i have concidered and its possibility of Udina deciding that they were disposable. appointing them to spectres would still look resonable becasue they do have qualifications on paper, but if they die soon after, it will not geopardize war effort overall, as they are too new, don't have the same contacts as more experienced spectres, etc.

but once again, to reiterate.  their trust or lack of thereof in Shepard is irrelevant.  becasue Shepard is not supposed to be on a Citadel during a coup in a first place.

No. You're not a troll for disagreeing. You're a troll for repeatedly twisting what I say and for telling me that I'm "wrong" and implying that you're right.....

When in reality, Udina's motivations are never discussed. All we're left to do is speculate. Sorry. Not everybody shares your interpretation. Blame Bioware.

Oh and I never said Udina was stupid or a "moron" ......still don't understand where you're getting that from.....oh....twisting my words again? Figures

[Ryzaki]

It's already been said but it bears repeating.

The VS is a good symbol for humanity, he/she has less faith in Shepard than the rest of the crew thus Udina has a chance of getting them to turn against Shepard, and Shepard knows them enough to hesitate in firing.

That's my headcanon anyway. Sometimes it works for Udina and both him and the VS end up dead, sometimes it doesn't work and he gets shot by the VS or Shepard. It was a gamble and the VS was the best odds he could get.

Though I really do wish there was a renegade interrupt that just had Shep shoot them very early on instead of waiting for the standoff.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[DuskWanderer]

Nrieh wrote...

Third, the VS possesses all the qualities of Shepard

Could you be so kind to tell us which exactly "qualities of Shepard" (which one, by the way? Mine?Yours? Fem?Bro?) Kaidan AND Ashley posess?..

I don't mind. 

Ashley and Kaidan are both marines, experienced, disciplined, and get things accomplished. Sure, Shepard was the leader on the mission to stop Saren, but Shepard didn't do it by himself. You put them in a situation, and it gets accomplished. That is, first and foremost, what a Spectre is supposed to do. They didn't just roll over and die.

Second, as Udina mentions, they are incorruptable. We the player may sympathize with Shepard's motivations, but the Council, the characters in the game, do not. After all, Cerberus is a terrorist organization, an avowed enemy of the Council, and Shepard worked for them. It wasn't like Tela Vasir, who kept her Shadow Broker contacts secret, Shepard was openly cooperating with Cerberus. Ashley and Kaidan, however, do not work for Cerberus. They are loyal to the Alliance, humanity's arm in space. 

I personally do not believe that Udina made Ashley/Kaidan a Spectre with the coup attempt in mind: It makes no sense to make an enemy, particularly one so skilled. More than likely, Udina didn't come up with the idea of using Cerberus until later. Maybe he thought curing the genophage was a bad idea and Shepard would fail to convince the Council because of it. Or maybe Udina thought Shepard was just taking too long. 

I doubt Kaidan or Udina knew Shepard would be the one walking through the door when the shuttle was destroyed. Kaidan just thought it would be Cerberus soldiers. Udina's stubborn, but he's not dumb. When Kai Leng started the crisis, he worried that someone would link it to him, namely the salarian councilor, and reasoned that Shepard would be believed to be the culprit. That's why he forged the evidence of the councilor dying: It wasn't specifically for Kaidan, but when Shepard burst through and pointed his gun at Udina, he just had to do what he could. That's why he couldn't prepare for Shepard and the VS to hash out their problems: He didn't know about it.

[xMellowhype]

In the minority here but the VS sucks. They've done nothing on par with Sheperd.

[Vormaerin]

Cypher_CS wrote...

More like the writers of ME1 didn't pay attention.

You can't just arbitrarily decide that Major is equivalent to Naval Captain!
It doesn't work that way.
Hell, these ranks are more or less standard throughout the world today, be it US military, Chinese military or Iranian military.
Major is the 4th Officer rank, as is Lt' Commander (former Army/AF, latter Navy) .
2nd Lt - Ensign
1st Lt - Lt J.G.
Captain - Lt
Major - Lt' Commander
Lt' Colonel - Commander
Colonel - Captain
Brigadier - RAdm

etc'

They are more or less standard in this brief period of history.   They weren't standard 200 years ago.  Why would they necessarily be standard 200 years from now?

Yes, its a strange and arbitrary change.  But, then they have special forces officers holding naval line billets, apparently  (apparently, because we never actually *see* Shepard do anything naval.)

The short version is that the writers can create the rank system they want to use.  Its probably just a mistake, but they haven't corrected it so you don't get to decide that its really something other than what they say.

An O6 Kaiden would still be subject to Shepard's authority because he has the CO billet, even if he is outranked off the ship.

[chemiclord]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

If you talk to Bailey he will tell you Udina is the one that gave him his promotion. That with making the VS a Specter comes off as a bit odd and got me thinking that Udina might have purposefully filled the ranks with people that could subvert the coup.

I would contend the opposite.

Bailey didn't want the job.  He wanted to be "on the streets" where he probably would have been better able to sniff out the incoming Cerberus operatives.

The VS is supposed to be someone who won't be able to get in Kai Leng's way.  It's not coincidence that the only Spectre guarding the Council is the fresh meat who probably shouldn't have gotten the promotion in the first place.

[George-Kinsill]

semidefinite wrote...

I'm kinda surprised that everyone seems to assume that Shepard coming out of that elevator was part of Udina's plan in any way.

I always assumed that the plan was that Shepard runs around between Palavan and Tuchanka while Cerberus takes the Citadel undisturbed. Evil Cerberus assassins then manage to shoot three of the councilors, the VS heroically manages to shoot/shoo away the Cerberus goons and and is the hero of the day, with Udina the last living member of the council getting victim popularity.

Shepard coming back after that is irrelevant because it's too late to do anything and if Shepard gets too nosy there's always the option of removing Spectre status. Again.

This is a good interpretation. Tthe most important part though would be the acting. If the VS found out that Udina worked with Cerberus, they would kill him without a second thought. Even if Shepard di not come out of the elevator at that time, I doubt he would have been able to manipulate the VS the way he did (although I am inclined to agree with your idea).

[knightnblu]

Udina picked the VS as a hedge against Shepard's interference. Williams was so anti-Shepard that I really didn't think that she would ever reconcile with him. Even if you do manage to reconcile with her, she doesn't say word one to you until she drowns herself in alcohol. Before that, she just blows you off.

So when she lines up Shepard's skull in her gun sights I would have killed her immediately if the game had of let me and I would have been justified in pulling the trigger on her. I was able to talk her down, but her mistrust of Shepard nearly cost the Council their lives because of her lunacy.

Do you think that Udina was unaware of her extreme distrust of Shepard? Nope, he used her precisely because of that fact. In all likelihood, he probably expected Williams to kill Shepard eliminating the one person who could save the Council. His plan very nearly worked.

[Iakus]

knightnblu wrote...

Udina picked the VS as a hedge against Shepard's interference. Williams was so anti-Shepard that I really didn't think that she would ever reconcile with him. Even if you do manage to reconcile with her, she doesn't say word one to you until she drowns herself in alcohol. Before that, she just blows you off.

So when she lines up Shepard's skull in her gun sights I would have killed her immediately if the game had of let me and I would have been justified in pulling the trigger on her. I was able to talk her down, but her mistrust of Shepard nearly cost the Council their lives because of her lunacy.

Do you think that Udina was unaware of her extreme distrust of Shepard? Nope, he used her precisely because of that fact. In all likelihood, he probably expected Williams to kill Shepard eliminating the one person who could save the Council. His plan very nearly worked.

One of these days we have to compare notes on that standoff scene, 'cause that's totally not what happened in mine 

[CroGamer002]

^Yeah, I want to see that too.


Cause that didn't happen either to me.




And if it's true, what about Kaidan?