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[tisoy13]

During my first time in DAO my First mage supported Cailan and went against Loghain, after understanding the whole situation the whole darkspawn things It just came to my mind that Cailan just wasted his life and the whole troops against darkspawn ( he's fascinated too much to be on side of gray warden's side and fight with glory,  Loghain was truly right He's like a child playing war) and as for Alistair He's so stubborn he's such a foolish man he talks too much considering he's a man, that's why he's always bullied by Morrigan. Both brothers are not fit to be king [ I Pity king Marric ] that's why Anora deserves to be the Ruler  and my Young Cousland as Consort-King on her side...that would look best...and I'll let Anora rule her self.....

just an opinion..... 

Modifié par tisoy13, 12 juin 2012 - 02:13 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

but in other side of view....

Loghain should help the weak king, not to betray him. By betraying the king Loghain didn't achieve anything, starting a civil war. Because of him Ferelden torn apart.

Well, he does try to get Cailan out of the situation that ultimately killed him. I remember a fanfic called "Ridiculously Awesome" that notes that if Loghain really wanted Cailan dead, he wouldn't have tried to get Cailan not to fight in the worst of it, he would have told him "Real men fight naked." (I get the impression from Cailan's additude during the only conversation we hear on this that Loghain has pointed out the idiocy of putting himself on the front lines several times, rather than just making a token attempt in order to deflect suspicion.) At any rate, I suppose that shows how much help Cailan's willing to accept from Loghain.

As for the civil war... Ferelden nobles are not technically required to obey the person above them in the chain of command. Given his civilian title, Loghain has almost certainly had some experience getting them to do so anyway, but that's not the lines along which he's thinking right at that moment. He's thinking "Emergency Situation, everyone has to do what I say!" I'd say about half the country agrees, or probably more considering how many of the nobles start the Landsmeet arc as his supporters, and that he seems to have won the actual fighting in the Civil War. (Apart from the bits directly involving the PC.)

In the game, Cailan agree with Loghain for not calling help from Orlesian, that is fine, Loghain have no reason to left the battlefield. Even the battle is about to lost in anyway, the people and the nobles see Loghain doing the right thing by stand by the king. Loghain can order retreat if things went wrong, or perhaps rescue the king in the attempt.

According to the developers, it was Loghain's honest opinion that the battle was too far gone for any of that. Whether it was or not, the fact remains that the best general they had (apparently) looked at the battle and drew that conclusion. I also remember reading that Loghain apparently made a promise to Maric never to put one man over the entire country of Ferelden. It'd be nice if everyone else in Ferelden knew all of that, but never mind.

Yes, Alistair don't fit to be a king, i agree on that, but he is a good man. He's just too sensitive and fragile, low self esteem. His devotion to Duncan is because of that, He need someone to become his role model, he have no one so he take Duncan as his role model, even Duncan was actually a criminal, he makes Duncan as a saint. Well, he's a messed up kid anyway

Would you also agree that he's fit to do exactly what Anora tells him? The arrangement as described by both Anora and the epilogue notes that that's basically his job. Whether he's fit to be a solo king is another question, and one I have no strong opinion on.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 juin 2012 - 08:11 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The fact is Loghain is a traitor to the king and thus traitor to Ferelden. There is no justification for him to leave the battlefield. As the trusted general, he should be die with the king, no matter how weak or fool the king is...unless the general have something wicked in his mind...a coup...

He should die with the king no matter what? Even after promising his friend never to risk the country for the sake of one man? Even if he thinks he might actually be useful if he's not dead?

According to the authors, he did walk into the battle with the realization in mind that he might have to leave the soldiers Cailan was with to die. That's why he didn't want Cailan there in the first place.

As for justification... the darkspawn. He doesn't trust anyone else to handle it: he didn't like Duncan, and from what he knows of the situation, one might legitimately think the survivng Wardens are traitors, regardless. How was he to know that the PC ran into resistance lighting the beacon? The scripting notes in the toolset for the Landsmeet line when you accuse him of abandoning Cailan note that he was legitimately offended and angered, because he really does blame the Wardens.

Not to mention all those soldiers who would have died with him. Useful soldiers, not to mention many soldiers who have families. Never mind them though, it's not like the developers gave anyone but Ser Cauthrien a name.

Being Cailan father in law doesn't make him a king, there is no heir either to be hold with, he leave his country in turmoil for his action. he leave his country with no king. He blustered about outside threat but he himself leave his country weak with no king.

He isn't trying to be king. He's planning to give the throne to Anora, who was Cailan's wife, and who the Landsmeet will accept as being competent enough not to need a bloodline claim.

As for the country being in turmoil, he seems quite confident that the country will unite behind him and his daughter... right up until Teagan starts causing trouble.

He also make enemy toward Grey Wardens while the real threat is darkspawn. That make him a fool in my eye. The Blight is spreading throughout Ferelden but he hunt down any Grey Wardens. What he hope to achieve by his action?

He maybe can hold some nobles, gain support and such in politic, but can he save Ferelden from it's fate by what he doing? Luckily two of the Wardens survive (three includes Riordan) who do everything to save Ferelden from a certain doom.

According to anything Loghain has any reason to know, he can handle this. The edge the Joining gives the Wardens in gathering tactical information is secret, and the thing where literally nobody but a Grey Warden can end the Blight is even more secret.

In Human Noble playthrough, Loghain deserve death at the landsmeet, beheaded.

But as other than Human Noble character, what do i care about Ferelden politic anyway? :-)

The Human Noble can end up as Loghain's new (hopefully less idiotic) son-in-law, and might decide to spare Loghain to score points with his new wife. The Dwarf Noble might choose to look past Loghain's "crimes" for the reasons Riordan lists, especially if that Noble has already forgiven Bhelen for worse. (Or, well, maybe just worse from the "I don't care about Ferelden Politics because I'm from Orzammar" point of view.) The Mage might look at Loghain's promise to help the Circle, and choose not to blame him for Uldred's breakdown. (Which I don't see how Loghain could have stopped anyway.)

And let's be honest, the Dwarf Commoner is no saint himself. Riordan has a point when he says "We recruited you, didn't we?"

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 juin 2012 - 11:26 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If he die at Ostagar then he die, someone else will handle the Blight, no need for him. It was the last two surviving Warden do all the job in anyway, they both get much easier if Loghain don't interfere.

Without Loghain interfering ;

1. The Warden can get army support from Redcliff sooner because Arl Eamon is healthy and have all his knights and soldiers
2. The Circle Tower is normal as they are and not in the mess, the Warden can get support from Mages early and easy

Only left Dwarves and Dalish Elves

So, without Loghain, Ferelden is safe from darkspawn, at least before Grey Warden from Orlais come.

heck, Arl Eamon can summon the landsmeet and then throne Alistair as the King, there you got your army.

We don't need Loghain other than to give the satisfaction of beheading him :-)

First, I'd like to repeat that Loghain really does have a legitimate reason to think Alistair is a traitor, not to mention we've already agreed he's incompetent anyway. Yes, we know Alistair's not a traitor. Loghain was presumably getting his soldiers out of there rather than checking on the Tower to see what went wrong, which is the only way he would know that the Tower was compromised rather than Alistair and the PC purposefully dragging their feet.

Second, did Loghain know about the treaties? Duncan is never shown mentioning them to him or Cailan, the PC certainly doesn't mention them to him, I don't think he realized anyone else had any plan whatsoever. (Past Loghain's own execution, of course. Heck, I don't think anyone but Eamon had an alternative candidate for king, which is sort of neccesary under the circumstances.) A lot of the things you're citing as proof Loghain should have let himself die are based on things Loghain couldn't have seen coming, and at any rate, none of them explain why he should have let himself die rather than seeking out the Wardens and making himself (and the soldiers you seem to think he should have sacrificed) useful to them. Yes, there's his duty to his king. Because of Cailan's foolishness, Loghain found himself having to choose between doing his duty to Cailan and doing his duty to Ferelden. Those two duties are supposed to be the same thing, but thanks to Cailan, they are not.

And I still don't see how Loghain being guilty of the Tower's troubles works. He was associated with Uldred, yes. For Uldred to have as many followers as he seems to have had, however, requires him to have been planning long before Ostagar. (He didn't have many at all, but even a group the size of his would have been difficult to gather under the circumstances.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 juin 2012 - 12:04 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

what i mean is, we don't need Loghain anyway, it is better if he died at Ostagar, like i mention above none of those things happen if he not interfere

1) loghain sent Jowan to poison Arl Eamon before the King died. Which means while the King summon all to help at Ostagar, Loghain poison Arl Eamon, and from there Redcliff become a mess, many died for nothing

This was a plan Loghain made back before he realized there was a Blight: Cailan was planning to divorce Anora, Loghain nonlethally poisoned Eamon, and when they got done dealing with the incursion (Duncan could tell it was a Blight, for reasons Loghain had no way of knowing about) Loghain talks things out with Cailan without Eamon's influence. Berwick was there to send news if it looked like Eamon could die: if possible, Loghain would send the antidote, if not, oh well. (I'm not arguing that was moral, but by the time Loghain dying is a realistic possibility, it's a little late to stop this disaster. I am arguing that Connor going abomination was arugably not Loghain's fault.)

And none of this is the reason Eamon wasn't at Ostagar, if that is what you're implying. Cailan takes credit for that in his first appearance.

2) Uldred have motivation to do his doing because of his ambition to become the First Enchanter promised by Loghain, many Templar and Mage died for nothing

Without Loghain, none of these happen.

Take a note on that.

Loghain never offered Uldred the First Enchanter position. And you still have yet to explain how it's Loghain's fault Uldred was a blood mage who knew how to summon demons. Or that the Circle put him in a position where he felt threatened. Or that Uldred doesn't seem to have reacted in a sane manner.

[dragonflight288]

Have you ever hardened Alistair? When doing the Goldanna quest, if you tell him that everyone is out for themselves, and then reinforce it when he asks about it later in camp, he stands up for himself a lot more, he stands up to Anora if they marry, taking the art of ruling and politics seriously, surprising everyone at how well he does. And he wants to be king by the end, saying Anora would be like Loghain, willing to put their own ambition above the good of the country.

When he's hardened, he's a far cry from the whiny and indecisive warden we meet who's in love with his idealistic view of Duncan. He's harsh, decisive, and while still friendly, starts putting himself and what he wants over trying to please everyone.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Have you ever hardened Alistair? When doing the Goldanna quest, if you tell him that everyone is out for themselves, and then reinforce it when he asks about it later in camp, he stands up for himself a lot more, he stands up to Anora if they marry, taking the art of ruling and politics seriously, surprising everyone at how well he does. And he wants to be king by the end, saying Anora would be like Loghain, willing to put their own ambition above the good of the country.

When he's hardened, he's a far cry from the whiny and indecisive warden we meet who's in love with his idealistic view of Duncan. He's harsh, decisive, and while still friendly, starts putting himself and what he wants over trying to please everyone.

I've taken this option, yeah. I think it lessens the worst of his qualities as king, though I'm wondering if it might make him less inclined to listen to Anora, even when she has the right idea. It does make him a more suitable solo ruler.

[tisoy13]

Hardened or not Alistair is still foolish to me, [just an opinion] and same as Cailan they don't think highly and they don't act highborn, let's face the truth even in reality those who are in the Throne/Seat must to show power and authority in order to make other people follow, [for me too much democracy is very deadly],

**I think the best option in DAO taken was Loghain's decision cuz everything went right,
**cuz the people were pushed to their limits because of the crisis,
**many things were realized because of what happened,
**other people opened their minds to see reality.

Loghain cares too much for Country shown in his sacrifice even the death of his very own son-in-law which i find worth it, since Ferelden was always the same here and there, every now and then,

Why don't make a change? Putting a strong ruler with an attributes of scheming and wit could build a strong country, a country ruled only by passion and soft heart would mean nothing if Fereldan has a weak and stubborn Ruler other nation might think of taking over Ferelden once again since its very rich with ores and minerals plus the land is fertile.....[just like in school you must show u r strong and aggressive or you'll be bullied by other who's bigger and better than you] and other thing in Politic those people on your side might take advantage of you  if you're weakling those other arling  and teyrns might give them an ambition of another civil war by taking the throne since weak king make no sense at all, [ simple Fear is what makes everything in order, even in the bible God put fera in all of us by Fortelling bout hell and how deadly abd painful to be there.....once gaian too much democracy is deadly...... 

Modifié par tisoy13, 11 juin 2012 - 02:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

On the other hand, Alistair's style really does get the people on board. And as for Orlais or Tevinter attacking... from what I read on the wiki, they have their own sets of problems.

[tisoy13]

exactly..what i have on my post when i was editing it it took me 15 minutes to edit it to put something with a lil sense........

[caradoc2000]

Any particular reason this thread is in the non-spoiler forum?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Any particular reason this thread is in the non-spoiler forum?

... whoops.

[tisoy13]

sorrryyyyyyyy

[dragonflight288]

To be fair, Nizaris, he had men stationed there. No one expected the darkspawn to tunnel underneath the battle lines and come up from the rear. I doubt Loghain even knew the darkspawn were there. From his perspective, it was simply the Grey Wardens taking a very long time to light the signal.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I strongly believe Loghain know, because if we want to go to the tower as soon as we arrived at Ostagar, the guard tell us that it is closed, and they found "lower chamber", what is that?

And at the battle of Ostagar, we are told that darkspawn pour out from underground at the tower.

So HE KNOW...that is why Uldred suggesting that the tower is not necessary, the mages can give the signal using magic, but because of the Revered Mother making noise, Loghain just let the Warden going there light the beacon.

Loghain DIDN'T tell Cailan and the Warden anything, he's not being sincere

he want everybody dead and make it like darkspawn kill them all, he didn't expect that the Warden manage to light the signal, that is why he order a retreat as soon as the beacon is light...maybe he think he can make excuse if the Warden failed to light the beacon...

Why he wait? He can retreat before the beacon signal, he wait for the failure, he underestimate the Warden and Alistair.

And if you realize, the darkspawn already making some decorations inside the tower....meaning they have been there for quite some time...

Then when he learned that the Warden survive, he hired assassins to shut the Warden mouth forever....because the Warden know what really happened....remember what Alistair argue about in the tower? "there is not suppose to be darkspawn here"-Alistair...well, the darkspawn already make camps, decorations, fire,  traps, having dinner at the top....

Okay, Caradoc's right, we shouldn't be discussing this here (I think Loghain quitting the field is supposed to be a surprise, even if Bioware made it insanely obvious). However, I don't think I'm spoiling anything that hasn't already been if I point out that there's no way Loghain could have hidden that the darkspawn had taken over the tower. (Even if his men cooperated, why would the darkspawn? There's no way Loghain could have communicated to them what his plan was. And what would happen if a Warden wandered by anyway?) As for Uldred suggesting that the tower is unneccesary... yeah, that's what I'd expect him to do if the tower was merely unneccesary, rather than a known deathtrap. If he knew about this, there's two intelligent reactions: he can try to score points with the king by pointing out the trap (in which case he would actually point out the trap) or he can try to score points with Loghain by allowing it to happen (which would make even the half-hint he gave a really stupid move.) Or, he could just not know, and the whole thing could just be Uldred wondering why they need the Tower when mages can just shoot a fireworks display out ot their fingers.

As for the signs of continuing darkspawn inhabitance... I dunno. Oversight by the developers? The argument I presented as to Loghain's motivations isn't my own work: it's the developers' explanation of Loghain's behavior. (Apart from the thing where he tried to lead like a general rather than the King Of Ferelden, but that just makes sense.)

As for why Loghain waited, I think I remember Gaider's explanation being that he was watching the beacon, not the battlefield, and realized only when he saw the flames shoot up that it had been lit too late.

As for the assassins (yet another reason we should move this discussion if we plan to keep having it,) hiring them is still consistent with Loghain honestly believing the Wardens to be traitors. (Howe correctly points out that the Wardens are insanely tough to kill, but if they are traitors, they need to die.)