262 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The answer is simple, Bioware knows **** about warfare. End of story.

EXACTLY.

With regards to the underground chambers, the tower was full of soldiers and including at least one mage. Not sure what more he could have done. We know from RtO and Gaider that the Darkspawn got there because an Ogre broke through. 

He could've sealed them so as to be unusable by either side. There were reports of Ogres out in the field and the lower chambers are a threat to the plan.

The fortress itself sits on the edge of the Wilds. Those chambers lead directly into the Wilds.

Common sense would've been to render them unusable.

Never mind that Loghain should've studied Ostagar in any of the thirty years Ferelden was free and not facing any threat whatsoever.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2012 - 11:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

It was never said that he didn't seal them. The ogre might have broken through regardless, unless I am missing something.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It was never said that he didn't seal them. The ogre might have broken through regardless, unless I am missing something.

He chose to explore them rather then immediately seal them up. Talking to the guard at the Tower of Ishal will tell you this.

And by seal them up, I mean that no one should've been able to explore those lower reaches. They should've been completely unusable, but in such a way that it doesn't threaten the stability of the Tower.

Additionally, when you explore the lower chambers they show no sign of any attempt at being sealed having been made.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2012 - 11:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well of course you have to explore the chambers before sealing them.
But RtO never showed it, tis true. Not only that, but they made the entrance to the chambers so obvious, that I just want to facepalm. I mean, it had a door outside that was never sealed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 juin 2012 - 11:41 .

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well of course you have to explore the chambers before sealing them.

There are two reasons why I take issue with it:

1) It's fairly obvious that it would lead somewhere near the Wilds. Apparently, it led to the very valley the army was fighting in. Any general would understand that you have to consider every possible threat to a plan. And the lower chambers fall into that, explored or no. They're a threat to the Tower's role. And so it seems out of character for him to have not tried to correct this possible threat.
 
2) I also take issue with Loghain's failure to have explored Ostagar in its entirety prior to the onset of the Blight. He's made out to be a man who wants to know where his borders end and how best to defend those borders. Ostagar is critical to defending Ferelden from southern threats. I find it just as out of character that he's just now bothering to learn anything about it, when he's been Ferelden's general for 30 years now.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 juin 2012 - 12:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea, that's because Bioware doesn't know **** about war, among a many great deal of things.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yea, that's because Bioware doesn't know **** about war, among a many great deal of things.

If we're lucky, they'll learn something about warfare for DAIII.

But I'm not holding out much hope, given DAO's and DAII's poor display of it. Not only with the Arishok, but when you're defending the Mages in the endgame.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Rojahar wrote...


The Archdemon had perfectly justifiable motivations for everything, and would have explained them if the Wardens bothered with diplomacy instead of murdering it in cold blood!

There's a fanfic called "Ridiculously Awesome" where the Warden is a complete nymphomaniac psychopath, and Wynne writes a PoV chapter on her plans to redeem her. She then goes on to describe her plans to increase Alistair's self esteem (and do him) her plans to help Sten repent his actions, and (you've probably guessed from context) her plan to bring about a peaceful end to the Blight by reasoning with the archdemon.

Lol, or something.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 16 juin 2012 - 11:42 .

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

lols, yeah...i will NEVER put my soldiers on the bridge, no matter what...Napoleon himself will never do that.

Bridges are dangerous in war...for many reasons. Most war tactics are destroy bridges before enemies take advantage from them

In Ostagar, the bridge is so high above, and not look too well, what if that bridge fall down after few hits from catapult?

It wouldn't. It's Dwarven-made, and Dwarven architecture has been known to easily stand up to siege crews. Dwarven barrier doors can keep Darkspawn at bay for a few years if not a decade.

Though, Ostagar is in pretty rough shape. But still, it wouldn't fall that easily. The bridge itself is almost intact.

even destroy the bridge and so the darkspawn come out from there cannot reach main base.

The Darkspawn would find a way around it, eventually. Had it actually been a large Darkspawn raid with no real semblance of purpose, then that might've allowed the army to defeat them.

But the Archdemon would've given them new commands on how to bypass such a hindrance to their war efforts ("DESTROY! DESTROY! DESTROY!")

I agree the lower chambers should've been sealed up. Preferably, they should've been made inaccessible and unusable, period.

[maxernst]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It was never said that he didn't seal them. The ogre might have broken through regardless, unless I am missing something.

He chose to explore them rather then immediately seal them up. Talking to the guard at the Tower of Ishal will tell you this.

It's quite possible that the exploration induced the Darkspawn incursion, and that the ogre would never have found the passage into the tower if Loghain hadn't sent men prowling around in the tunnels.  Even if Ostagar was unwinnable from the start, it's still Loghain's fault because it was his decision to agree to advance out of a defensible position when he didn't know how large a force he would be facing.  He could have said no, that we should wait for the scouts to return and inform us of the size of the Darkspawn army.  Instead, the only argument he attempts to use to sway Cailan is the arrival of Eamon's reinforcements, which he has reason to think aren't coming at all.

[Wulfram]

Alistair and Cailan are quite likable, which is tremendously important for kings. Medieval rulership depends on the personal relationships between key people.

[TEWR]

maxernst wrote...

It's quite possible that the exploration induced the Darkspawn incursion, and that the ogre would never have found the passage into the tower if Loghain hadn't sent men prowling around in the tunnels.

Never considered that. If so, then that's all the more proof they should've been immediately sealed up.

  Even if Ostagar was unwinnable from the start, it's still Loghain's fault because it was his decision to agree to advance out of a defensible position when he didn't know how large a force he would be facing.

Actually, he just wanted Cailan to draw the Darkspawn into the valley.

Cailan's the one that ordered all of the soldiers to charge out of the valley and into the open, thereby weakening -- if not outright ruining -- the Hammer&Anvil strategy Loghain proposed at the war council.

  He could have said no, that we should wait for the scouts to return and inform us of the size of the Darkspawn army.  Instead, the only argument he attempts to use to sway Cailan is the arrival of Eamon's reinforcements, which he has reason to think aren't coming at all.

He did send scouts out, didn't he? I thought the Ash Warriors were covering that part. Or that he did in fact send other scouts out.

And Loghain didn't bring up Eamon's reinforcements. That was Duncan upon arriving in Ostagar. Cailan then said that Eamon just wanted in on the glory.

Loghain only protested to having Orlesian reinforcements coming and urged Cailan to not fight on the front lines.

Nizaris1 wrote...

The bridge don't look convincing.........

It survives countless barrages of Ogres throwing flaming rocks at it when you're on it.

Seems sturdy enough.

In fact, Ostagar is still around after the battle with very little changes. The Tower of Ishal was wrecked from the first floor up, but the rest of the fortress was still the same aside from having snow on the ground.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 juin 2012 - 08:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

"X is not fit to be a king"? Sez who?

Kings are not born, they are made..moulded. You won't make a good king without a good advisor and some experience, just as you won't make a good programer without actually having programmed something.


Allistair wants to do good, he tries. He learns. And that's what makes him a good king.
The endings kinda prove that.

[tisoy13]

I Started the Dragon Age Origins over again for 20th times. King Cailan is nice but whatever he does as what Wyne said he Reminds me of a puppy but a nice sweet puppy, and as for Alistair.....after studying his character carefully i find him likable now, well if he's hardened.. [ only if he's hardened and he does not talk too much...lol ]

[TEWR]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Eamon fell ill before Cailan death according to Sir Donall, his knights are busy searching for the urn, that is why they didn't come to Ostagar

Loghain through Jowan poison Arl Eamon before Battle of Ostagar

The game does a poor job of consistently telling us about Eamon's illness in sufficient detail and when it happened, because Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time and Jowan says that he met the Teyrn in Denerim, where he was then given the task of poisoning Eamon. Loghain absolutely cannot be in two places at the same time.

And considering it would take less time for Duncan and the Mage Warden to arrive at Ostagar then it would for Jowan to be sent to Denerim with his Templar captors and then go all the way back to Redcliffe, I'm hesitant to believe that Jowan poisoned Eamon prior to Ostagar.

Plus, Duncan met with Eamon. I'm sure if Eamon was seriously ill, Duncan would've noticed.

Ser Donall may say Eamon was sick prior to Ostagar, but only a few people will choose to believe that sickness is the same as his poison. I personally think that Eamon was simply sick with a cold or some other type of ailment and the poison -- which happened after Ostagar -- progressed even faster due to Eamon's body being unable to properly fight it.

That is the only way it makes sense to me. And this is certainly one of the flaws with Origins, since it's a timeline issue. It's negligible when you look at the overall game, but it's still a notable flaw.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 juin 2012 - 08:08 .

[maxernst]

@EtherealRedux, I think it's pretty clear that the timeline issue that arises if you're playing the mage origin is an error in the writing. The alternative is that Eamon was already so seriously ill before the poisoning that Isolde had brought down mages (who were unable to cure him) and had sent his knights off chasing legends. And that Jowan makes no mention of the fact that he was poisoning a man who was already mortally ill, and that Teagan, Isolde and Eamon himself have all forgotten the fact that he was mortally ill before Jowan arrived.

Modifié par maxernst, 29 juin 2012 - 03:10 .

[actionhero112]

Don't really agree on the warfare point.

Dragon Age =/= Age of Empires

The important parts of the game are not that you get to command large armadas and armies. Plus there wasn't even cavalry. I don't think large scale realistic strategy of warfare was a main focus of the... you know... game?

Plus, I doubt Lohgain thought the darkspawn were organized to burrow through the tunnels using an ogre. There hasn't been a blight for 300 years, and ogres only really appear during a blight. I doubt Lohgain thought it was a blight, and even if he did, I doubt he knew about the possiblity of a ogre.The only reason the Darkspawn are organized enough to burrow into the tower is the archedemon.


Also Eamon was "poisoned" after Ostagar. Duncan is insistant that Eamon says Redcliffe forces could be here within like a week during the intro dialogue. The line that follows is "Eamon just wants part of the glory, We've won several battles against them already, today should be no different."

This implies that Eamon was well enough offer to lead his forces with Cailan. 


You'd think if Dwarven architecture was so great, that it would have at least kept the mindless unorganized darkspawn at bay. 

Modifié par actionhero112, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:31 .

[TEWR]

actionhero112 wrote...

I doubt he knew about the possiblity of a ogre

He probably didn't, though one would expect him to have heard the rumors floating about on how some of the soldiers saw an Ogre that was 20 feet big with horns -- something two soldiers will talk about.

At any rate, I still insist that he should've sealed up the lower caverns immediately because Blight or no they were still a threat to the battles. And as we are led to believe is his character, he should've known the entire structure of Ostagar in the 30 years or so that Ferelden was free. But he knew nothing about it until he went there himself.

Loghain is made out to be a man who wants to know his borders, where they end, and how best to defend them. Failure to have explored Ostagar -- a strategic point in Ferelden, and one that is known about -- is out of character for Loghain and is a pretty major failure on the part of Bioware.

actionhero112 wrote...

The important parts of the game are not that you get to command large armadas and armies. Plus there wasn't even cavalry. I don't think large scale strategy of warfare was a main focus of the... you know... game?

Bioware made Loghain out to be this amazing general. It would help if they actually showed us that aspect, rather then telling us about it.

I'm not really a fan of informed abilities of this sort, when war is an important aspect of the game -- the Blight and the Fereldan Civil War.

DAII suffered from this as well, when small scale wars will break out twice in that game and yet there were no displays of strategies being enacted. 

If they can't display warfare appropriately in the first two games, how can I expect to take the Mage-Templar War seriously for DAIII, if characters don't know jack **** about warfare -- due to Bioware knowing jack **** about warfare?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:37 .

[actionhero112]

The tunnel was blocked enough that they needed an Ogre to break through it. (basically it was blocked)

I'll agree that the war was a huge part of the DA world, but the tactics were not. They didn't focus on the "epic pincer tactic of 1892 blessed" because it isn't important. Dragon Age isn't that kind of game. It's about character interaction and choices you make. Not mimicking realistic warfare.

-Did Lohgain ever intend to fight at Ostagar, or was it ruse? Doesn't seem he intended to fight considering Human Noble Origin.

- Did Lohgain care whether Ostagar fell? Ostagar was essentially a way of surveying the Chasind, and served no purpose in the large scale fight against the blight. (Defeating the archdemon which is a dragon and can fly, Darkspawn had other ways of getting into Ferelden, it's not exactly an island)

-Considering that the last blight was 300 years ago, and the wardens are secretive, is it any wonder why Lohgain didn't know Wardens were necessary to defeat the archdemon?

-I take it you want realistic tactics such as those in medieval times? However, that implies that you think that Ferelden resembles some sort of medieval period. There are numerous differences that make significant difference to warfare of that time period, the least of which is the concept of MAGIC. Do you really expect Bioware to completely reinvent warfare for a game that wouldn't even focus on it?

Modifié par actionhero112, 09 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The game does a poor job of consistently telling us about Eamon's illness in sufficient detail and when it happened, because Loghain was at Ostagar the entire time and Jowan says that he met the Teyrn in Denerim, where he was then given the task of poisoning Eamon. Loghain absolutely cannot be in two places at the same time.

And considering it would take less time for Duncan and the Mage Warden to arrive at Ostagar then it would for Jowan to be sent to Denerim with his Templar captors and then go all the way back to Redcliffe, I'm hesitant to believe that Jowan poisoned Eamon prior to Ostagar.

According to Gaider, that second one is the way it happened: insofar as I could gather, Loghain was in Denerim doing something when Jowan was brought to his attention. Gaider's explanation for the time mix-up was something like Duncan and the Warden not arriving at Ostagar immediately, and Loghain not being at Ostagar that entire time. Still, the timeline makes more sense in a non-mage playthrough, with the conclusion of the selected Origin decoupled from Jowan escaping. All I can guess is that Duncan took his time, whereas Loghain and the templars didn't. Noticable flaw, but small enough I guess.

Plus, Duncan met with Eamon. I'm sure if Eamon was seriously ill, Duncan would've noticed.

Ser Donall may say Eamon was sick prior to Ostagar, but only a few people will choose to believe that sickness is the same as his poison. I personally think that Eamon was simply sick with a cold or some other type of ailment and the poison -- which happened after Ostagar -- progressed even faster due to Eamon's body being unable to properly fight it.

The impression I got from the dialogue was that the poison worked slowly, rather than immediately putting him on what appeared to be his death-bed. And why not? A healthy man suddenly losing it? After his wife hired a new staff member by coincidence? Not a remotely safe plan. So, Jowan picks (or is given) something that works slowly, and it's not even noticeable until after Ostagar.

Plus, the Warden's dialogue options all imply either not knowing who Eamon is, or simply never having personally him. I think that means that Duncan met with Eamon before picking up the Mage Warden, which would mean that Eamon wasn't yet getting the slow-poison when Duncan last saw him. So that explains why Duncan didn't notice anything, especially not Jowan. (If Duncan had already recruited the Warden before he went to Redcliffe, I think he'd have at least brought him along to meet Eamon. If he's nervous about showing off the recruit in front of important people, it doesn't show overmuch during the first meeting with Cailan, or the "strategy" session.)

(On the other hand, if he wasn't buttering up the nobility, what was he doing sauntering to Ostagar so slowly Loghain could pull all this off?)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 juillet 2012 - 02:58 .

[TEWR]

actionhero112 wrote...

The tunnel was blocked enough that they needed an Ogre to break through it. (basically it was blocked)

It showed no signs of ever having been blocked, nor is it ever stated to have been blocked. The Ogre could've charged through on the Archdemon's orders as a "Just do it for the lulz" scenario or a "Just to be safe" scenario, rather then a "Damn, we can't get through! Break it down!".

actionhero112 wrote...

I'll agree that the war was a huge part of the DA world, but the tactics were not. They didn't focus on the "epic pincer tactic of 1892 blessed" because it isn't important. Dragon Age isn't that kind of game. It's about character interaction and choices you make. Not mimicking realistic warfare.

If you're going to write about war, then you should mimic realistic warfare as much as possible. Being told Loghain is a great general, but failing to showcase it and even worse... contradicting it at a few instances is just bad.

Yes it's not the main focus, but we should at least see a few examples. Ostagar -- before the battle, as Cailan's charging out jeopardized the plan -- should've mimicked realistic warfare as much as possible, which really only would've taken a few lines saying the Tower of Ishal was being sealed off.

And then the Darkspawn pour through into it.

Realistic warfare plus the storyline significance.

Boom. All it takes.

actionhero112 wrote...

-Did Lohgain ever intend to fight at Ostagar, or was it ruse? Doesn't seem he intended to fight considering Human Noble Origin.

Incorrect. David Gaider said that the Darkspawn that showed up were far more numerous then anyone anticipated -- Loghain included -- and that if he had a chance of winning the battle he would've charged.

He always intended to fight the battle, disagreements and arguments with Cailan aside.

actionhero112 wrote...

- Did Lohgain care whether Ostagar fell? Ostagar was essentially a way of surveying the Chasind, and served no purpose in the large scale fight against the blight. (Defeating the archdemon which is a dragon and can fly, Darkspawn had other ways of getting into Ferelden, it's not exactly an island)

Also incorrect I think. While the Archdemon can indeed fly, Ostagar was built so as to keep the Chasind Wilders out of Ferelden. The Darkspawn wouldn't be able to go into Ferelden any other way, short of going back underground and down and around into the countryside.

And yes he did care. At least, about the men he lost, Cailan included. About its military significance? I'd like to think so, considering it is strategically important -- per the lore. The fortress itself had a perfect opportunity to keep the defenders safe while enemies charge out. One need only look at a picture to see that the best thing to do is to keep your armies in the valley, protected by the walls on both sides, with your enemies charging out at you. Form a phalanx and things are safe.

actionhero112 wrote...

-Considering that the last blight was 300 years ago, and the wardens are secretive, is it any wonder why Lohgain didn't know Wardens were necessary to defeat the archdemon?

Where did I state anything saying otherwise, or that it was entirely the fault of Loghain? It's the Wardens' secrecy as well as the army's failure to press the issue -- which includes Loghain -- that caused Loghain to be unaware of why they're necessary.

It's both sides' fault. How much is dependant on who you ask.

Although opinions on Duncan would've been improved for some people if he told the PC and Alistair that he was going to inform Loghain and Cailan of certain Warden secrets after the battle.

actionhero112 wrote...

-I take it you want realistic tactics such as those in medieval times

Sort of. I want the tactics such as those in medieval times to be adapted to suit the needs of the setting, magic included.

For example, if Loghain had the support of the entire Circle of Magi and Cailan didn't do an idiot charge: Having Mages on the bridge raining hellfire and tempest storms on the horde while the army stays in the valley forming a phalanx and archers in the back of the army are firing volleys of arrows into the sky towards their enemies.

There's a limit on how far we as players can send magic attacks, but I'd chalk that up to being more of a gameplay limitation rather then a lore limitation. Certainly, you can't rain an inferno down in Tevinter all the way from Ferelden. But I'd like to think that a Mage could rain an inferno down at any point he can actually see.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:58 .

[Toki]

I wholeheartedly agree with Loghain. There's no point in losing the army for an already lost battle. If the king wants to be stupid, that's his fault, but Loghain shouldn't put the rest of Ferelden in jeopardy because Cailan wouldn't listen to him.

Not even Maric was a good king. He was a good person, and reading the novels I love Maric, but he ran away rather sneakily with the Grey Wardens into the Deep Roads. I haven't finished the novel, I don't know the outcome because I'm about 1/3 of the way there, but that's not very kingly. Cailan is just a little kid, not even old enough to be king in my opinion, and Anora is definitely fit to be queen. She's not my favorite character, but she's fit for it. Alistair is a baby and honestly doesn't even want to, so how can you have a king like that?