262 réponses à ce sujet

[bzombo]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

If he die at Ostagar then he die, someone else will handle the Blight, no need for him. It was the last two surviving Warden do all the job in anyway, they both get much easier if Loghain don't interfere.

Without Loghain interfering ;

1. The Warden can get army support from Redcliff sooner because Arl Eamon is healthy and have all his knights and soldiers
2. The Circle Tower is normal as they are and not in the mess, the Warden can get support from Mages early and easy

Only left Dwarves and Dalish Elves

So, without Loghain, Ferelden is safe from darkspawn, at least before Grey Warden from Orlais come.

heck, Arl Eamon can summon the landsmeet and then throne Alistair as the King, there you got your army.

We don't need Loghain other than to give the satisfaction of beheading him :-)

First, I'd like to repeat that Loghain really does have a legitimate reason to think Alistair is a traitor, not to mention we've already agreed he's incompetent anyway. Yes, we know Alistair's not a traitor. Loghain was presumably getting his soldiers out of there rather than checking on the Tower to see what went wrong, which is the only way he would know that the Tower was compromised rather than Alistair and the PC purposefully dragging their feet.

Second, did Loghain know about the treaties? Duncan is never shown mentioning them to him or Cailan, the PC certainly doesn't mention them to him, I don't think he realized anyone else had any plan whatsoever. (Past Loghain's own execution, of course. Heck, I don't think anyone but Eamon had an alternative candidate for king, which is sort of neccesary under the circumstances.) A lot of the things you're citing as proof Loghain should have let himself die are based on things Loghain couldn't have seen coming, and at any rate, none of them explain why he should have let himself die rather than seeking out the Wardens and making himself (and the soldiers you seem to think he should have sacrificed) useful to them. Yes, there's his duty to his king. Because of Cailan's foolishness, Loghain found himself having to choose between doing his duty to Cailan and doing his duty to Ferelden. Those two duties are supposed to be the same thing, but thanks to Cailan, they are not.

And I still don't see how Loghain being guilty of the Tower's troubles works. He was associated with Uldred, yes. For Uldred to have as many followers as he seems to have had, however, requires him to have been planning long before Ostagar. (He didn't have many at all, but even a group the size of his would have been difficult to gather under the circumstances.)

Loghain looks up at the tower and sees it lit. He then calls off his troops. I can't agree with you here. Loghain is a hero to Ferelden. Without him, the country probably stays under Orlais rule. By the time of Origins, he's become way too suspicious for his own good. His unfounded fears and suspicions cause him to do things that no one, especially a hero, should do. The only threat to Ferelden is the darkspawn. Even though we know that threat is huge, by his own admission he does not think it to be anything too serious because he thinks it's not a blight. There was no reason to not support his king. Loghain's actions were awful, although they seem to be coming from an honest concern for Ferelden. There just wasn't a serious threat besides the blight.

Modifié par bzombo, 12 juillet 2012 - 06:55 .

[TEWR]

bzombo wrote...

Loghain looks up at the tower and sees it lit. He then calls off his troops

And Alistair says they've surely missed the signal for when the beacon was supposed to be lit because the Darkspawn invaded the Tower. Add into that how Cailan ruined the battle plan, how the army was breaking apart, and how the horde was never-ending as far as anyone could tell, and Loghain's retreat was the tactically sound thing to do.

Review Orlais' history of "helping" other nations fight the Blight and you'll see that Loghain's fear of Orlais stems from more then just what happened during his lifetime. You'll see that it's a distrust that runs far deeper then the crimes committed against Fereldans. You'll see that Loghain's distrust of Orlais -- while possibly wrong -- was not unfounded.

Indeed, even the Wardens themselves had a history of spreading Orlesian influence, and Loghain probably thought that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so that Ferelden's army would be weakened and its monarch killed to the point that Ferelden would have to rely on Orlais' aid to survive the Blight.

Which then would come with even more losses and leave them even weaker, prompting Orlais to take advantage of the weakened state and occupy it again.

None of that happens to Ferelden of course, but Orlais has done more or less the same thing to Nevarra and the Free Marches before -- and I believe the Anderfels as well. And that's probably what Loghain was thinking. A repeat of history. He had every reason to believe it would happen, and very little to believe it wouldn't happen.

That's why he wanted Ferelden to stand behind him. If they could defeat the Blight on their own, they could defeat two birds with one stone: the Darkspawn and the threat of Orlais.

He was misguided in that belief -- due to various factors -- but that's really what makes him great.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .

[maxernst]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bzombo wrote...

Loghain looks up at the tower and sees it lit. He then calls off his troops

Indeed, even the Wardens themselves had a history of spreading Orlesian influence, and Loghain probably thought that the Wardens deliberately delayed the signal fire so that Ferelden's army would be weakened and its monarch killed to the point that Ferelden would have to rely on Orlais' aid to survive the Blight.

.

Oh, really?  When does Loghain EVER say that the signal was too late?  He gives two explanations for Ostagar:  the first one is that the Grey Wardens murdered the king, and the second that Ostagar was hopeless before the battle ever began, the first of which is a lie, and the second of which requires no betrayal by the Wardens.  The idea that the Wardens would do this is so absurd.  Even if Duncan had a death wish, he wasn't the one who chose the time, place or strategy of the battle.  It wasn't even his idea to have the Wardens light the signal fire. 
Plus, Cailan was the biggest proponent of the Wardens in Ferelden and it was hardly going to be advantageous to the order.

Besides, if Loghain really believed that, why does he magically change his mind when he loses a duel?  How have you persuaded him that you're not in league with Orlesians?  Maybe it's the Orlesian bard you count among your companions, or the Orlesian Warden you rescue from Howe's dungeon with the help of Anora's Orlesian maid?  If anything, he should be more convinced than ever that you're an Orlesian stooge.

A more logical explanation for Loghain's banning and hunting down of the Wardens is that they provide a convenient scapegoat for the loss of the King's army at Ostagar that doesn't tarnish his reputation for tactical brilliance or unduly alarm people about a minor Darkspawn incursion.  Or maybe he wants to make sure that Alistair, a potential rival to his daughter's claim on the throne, didn't survive the battle. Or just doesn't want any possible interference from potential rivals who command troops outside of his control.  The idea that the Wardens delayed the signal fire is never stated in the game at all, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

Modifié par maxernst, 13 juillet 2012 - 06:51 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

maxernst wrote...

Oh, really?  When does Loghain EVER say that the signal was too late?  He gives two explanations for Ostagar:  the first one is that the Grey Wardens murdered the king, and the second that Ostagar was hopeless before the battle ever began, the first of which is a lie, and the second of which requires no betrayal by the Wardens.  The idea that the Wardens would do this is so absurd.  Even if Duncan had a death wish, he wasn't the one who chose the time, place or strategy of the battle.  It wasn't even his idea to have the Wardens light the signal fire. 
Plus, Cailan was the biggest proponent of the Wardens in Ferelden and it was hardly going to be advantageous to the order.

Does he ever say that they literally stuck their knives in his back? Seems like denying him critical support until too late is technically murder, and the latter rolls off the tongue easier. You don't want the peasants to have a complicated rallying cry. Plus, Loghain has concluded that the Wardens were convincing him he was invincible, and that victory was assured based solely on their presence: Cailan really does seem to think that, and the only alternative explanation for this is that... well, see thread title. Anyway, Loghain would rather believe the Wardens were just evil.

I'm also quite sure I covered the "the idea the Wardens would do this is so absurd" point earlier in this thread: it was the best explanation he had for what happened. He had plans to possibly scuttle the beacon, presumably either cancelling them out of conscience or because there were people not loyal to him watching. So, the idea that the beacon might be scuttled is fresh in his mind. Meanwhile, the beacon doesn't get lit until too late (Alistair's word, not Loghain's) and Loghain misses his chance. He doesn't automatically assume darkspawn got past the lines, and why would he go and check the tower instead of getting his men out of there? Instead, he just assumes it's the people whose loyalty to him he can't personally vouch for.

Besides, if Loghain really believed that, why does he magically change his mind when he loses a duel?  How have you persuaded him that you're not in league with Orlesians?  Maybe it's the Orlesian bard you count among your companions, or the Orlesian Warden you rescue from Howe's dungeon with the help of Anora's Orlesian maid?  If anything, he should be more convinced than ever that you're an Orlesian stooge.

The word from the developers on that one is that Loghain was finally convinced that you could handle the Blight, I'm not sure how exactly he decided you weren't working for Orlais.

A more logical explanation for Loghain's banning and hunting down of the Wardens is that they provide a convenient scapegoat for the loss of the King's army at Ostagar that doesn't tarnish his reputation for tactical brilliance or unduly alarm people about a minor Darkspawn incursion.  Or maybe he wants to make sure that Alistair, a potential rival to his daughter's claim on the throne, didn't survive the battle. Or just doesn't want any possible interference from potential rivals who command troops outside of his control.  The idea that the Wardens delayed the signal fire is never stated in the game at all, and doesn't make a lot of sense.

Or, maybe he actually believes it, like the toolset notes for his lines state. (I'm not 100% on what those are, are they actor motivations, or something?) Then there's all the stuff that you mention about Alistair, and potential rivals, which don't really help the Warden's case from his point of view anyway.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juillet 2012 - 07:21 .

[TEWR]

Oh, really?  When does Loghain EVER say that the signal was too late?

He doesn't have to outright state it. If Alistair says they're too late, then they were too late.

And I never said he stated such. I said he probably thought such, because as far as I know he doesn't state it. But just because we don't ever hear him say it doesn't mean that he never thought it.

He gives two explanations for Ostagar:  the first one is that the Grey Wardens murdered the king, and the second that Ostagar was hopeless before the battle ever began, the first of which is a lie, and the second of which requires no betrayal by the Wardens.

To the first: It's a lie as we the players know it, but the premise I just gave -- and Loghain's statements on how the Wardens failed to convince Cailan on how to properly fight the battle -- goes to support why the common people might believe such a thing. Loghain didn't know the Tower was invaded by Darkspawn, so him assuming the Wardens delayed the signal on purpose is a valid -- albeit wrong -- thought.

I point to what I said above in its entirety, because all of that is valid based on the lore of the world and what I know Loghain says.

He believes the Wardens were working for Orlais -- asking to bring in legions of chevaliers, possibly believing the signal fire was purposefully delayed, failing to convince Cailan to employ proper strategy and not rely on legends, thinking Alistair was little more then a puppet king -- and thus it's understandable to see why he would think the Wardens murdered the king.

To the second: Where does he state those specific words, that the battle could never have been won?

maxernst wrote...

The idea that the Wardens would do this is so absurd.

Is it? The Wardens in the past had converted to the Chantry's relgion and helped spread Orlesian influence. Orlais itself has used the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage by helping further their expansionist policies.

It's not so absurd, if you study Thedas' history. And then it becomes even more understandable when you look at Loghain's past with the Orlesians, which will cloud his judgement. And it becomes even more understandable when you remember just why the Wardens were exiled from Ferelden in the first place, insofar as the populus at large knew: rebelling against the King of Ferelden.

maxernst wrote...
Even if Duncan had a death wish, he wasn't the one who chose the time, place or strategy of the battle.  It wasn't even his idea to have the Wardens light the signal fire.

True, but that the Wardens didn't suggest it doesn't mean the Order itself wouldn't have used it to their/Orlais' advantages, were they actually working for Orlais.

They weren't, of course. But just because they didn't say "We'll light the Tower" doesn't mean that they couldn't have thought "We can use this to weaken Ferelden".

Again, they didn't. I'm not trying to say the Wardens were working for Orlais. I'm merely trying to defend a possible viewpoint that Loghain may have held.

Is it wrong to think the Wardens are backing Orlais and condemning people to death by Darkspawn? Yes, it is wrong, because that wasn't the case.

But it's understandable, when you examine Thedas' history and Loghain's backstory.

Plus, Cailan was the biggest proponent of the Wardens in Ferelden and it was hardly going to be advantageous to the order.

The idea that I said Loghain may have been operating under was that if the Wardens were backing Orlais, Ferelden would be so weakened by the Blight that they would have to rely on Orlais' aid to defeat the Darkspawn, and Orlais would repeat what it did to Nevarra, the Anderfels, and the Free Marches.

It would be advantageous to the Order, if Ferelden was reduced to little more then an Orlesian territory, because the Wardens would be working for Orlais.

maxernst wrote...

Besides, if Loghain really believed that, why does he magically change his mind when he loses a duel?

Perhaps because Ferelden basically united behind you and you have the necessary leadership qualities to make defeating the Blight possible? As far as I know, you can only duel him if you won -- though it's been a long time since I lost the Landsmeet, so I may be wrong.

At that point, he begins to say "The legends might be true. This Warden may be able to do it". Remember that he questioned why the Wardens were necessary to defeat the Blight -- something stemming from a critical lack of information.

He sees that just maybe, you can end this. And maybe, just maybe, with all the things you've done, there's hope for Ferelden.

Never mind that at this point, you've raised an army without any major Orlesian assistance, which is really the only thing Loghain wanted Ferelden to shy away from. So that's also going to go to it -- and indeed, he does remark upon you having built an army from nothing at Redcliffe Castle, if the proper options are chosen.

Also, Howe's dead. Perhaps Howe was adding fuel to the fires for Loghain's paranoid beliefs about the Wardens working for Orlais. Certainly a possibility, given that DG has said that Howe manipulated Loghain a great deal.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juillet 2012 - 10:40 .

[Plaintiff]

Since when does "talking too much" make someone unfit to be king? Last I heard, diplomacy was pretty damn important in politics. Alistair is witty and very likeable, important qualities in any leadership or diplomatic position. He may not be experienced in politics, but that can be taught.

Alistair never allowed himself to be "bullied" by Morrigan, he frequently gave as good as he got in their exchanges. In fact, it's questionable that they even truly dislike each other. Their relationship comes off less like genuine mutual hatred and more like a schoolyard cush.

Cailan's enthusiasm for battle could've easily been an act to boost troop morale. Choosing to fight alongside his men was not an inherently foolish decision. People value a leader who demonstrates that he is willing to get his hands dirty. We will never know what was truly going on in his mind.

Alistair and Cailan may not be the best possible candidates for leadership, but let's look at the alternatives, shall we?

Loghain is a delusional paranoiac who ignores  the real and present threat of the Darkspawn in favour of chasing Orelsian monsters hiding under his bed. Whether or not his past traumas justify this, the simple fact of the matter is that the man is obviously unhinged.

He abandoned the battle at Ostagar (his motivations for doing this aren't all that important) and then expected to return to Denerim, publicly insult a much-loved, recently deceased public figure, and bully the Bannorn into following him. And then he acts surprised when his behaviour attracts suspicion instead of unwavering loyalty! He clearly has no concept of tact or diplomacy himself.

He then devotes a considerable amount of resources to the task of hunting down and killing two Grey Wardens. Let's re-examine that: while the darkspawn are ravaging the countryside, he is playing hide and seek with two men who are travelling all over the country. Teryn Loghain needs priority readjustment badly!

And then there's Anora: the self-proclaimed "brains behind the crown".

As Queen, she could've assumed authority and rallied the people. This would've been relatively easy to do. She was a much-loved figure in her own right and she has more tact and grace than Loghain.

What did she actually do? Virtually nothing. She sat back and watched as her father sent the country into a spiral of self-destruction. She made no effort to repair the bridges Loghain had burnt (one throwaway line to Bann Teagan doesn't count), and she failed to stand up to him in either a public or a private setting. Some people might be inclined to cut her some slack here because Loghain is her father. I am not. If she can't put aside personal feelings and do her goddamn job in a time of national crisis, then she doesn't deserve her job.

The only time she does anything of consequence, she takes a lesson from the Princess Peach school of politics, blundering into the clutches of the obviously untrustworthy Arl Howe, and gets herself captured! Girl power!

Once rescued, she has the audacity to brag about being the true intellectual power behind Cailan's charismatic manner, but that claim holds absolutely no water when the Warden returns to Ostagar and discovers that Cailan was acting behind the backs of both Anora and her father, arranging a secret alliance and possibly even marriage with Empress Celene. Looks like there was more to Cailan than meets the eye! One can hardly blame him for getting sick of being shackled to an uppitty nag who apparently treated him like an infant.

Anora can't even successfully maintain a happy relationship with her husband, but we're supposed to expect that she could maintain amiable connections with the entire Bannorn, not to mention the various dignitaries of other countries? I'm not buying it.

Alistair may be untested, but Anora and Loghain are proven failures. I'll take my chances with the rookie.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Since when does "talking too much" make someone unfit to be king? Last I heard, diplomacy was pretty damn important in politics. Alistair is witty and very likeable, important qualities in any leadership or diplomatic position. He may not be experienced in politics, but that can be taught. [/quote]

He is willing to be taught if hardened, which makes him a reasonably good candidate. Not to mention that the people all like him either way, because he acts like one of them, sneaking away from his guards to drink with the commoners. He can be a good king if hardened, and I suppose a reasonably good king either way. So, yes, he's fit to be king.

[quote]
Alistair never allowed himself to be "bullied" by Morrigan, he frequently gave as good as he got in their exchanges. In fact, it's questionable that they even truly dislike each other. Their relationship comes off less like genuine mutual hatred and more like a schoolyard cush. [/quote]

And yet he has to be talked into doing her. Not to mention some of the shots she takes are a little bit harsh for your interpretation.

[quote]
Cailan's enthusiasm for battle could've easily been an act to boost troop morale. Choosing to fight alongside his men was not an inherently foolish decision. People value a leader who demonstrates that he is willing to get his hands dirty. We will never know what was truly going on in his mind. [/quote]

Not inherently foolish, but it didn't work with Loghain's plan. Not to mention his charging out into the valley. If that was Loghain's plan, than Bioware sucks at writing great generals. If it was Cailan's, they do a good job writing idiotic kings.

[quote]
Alistair and Cailan may not be the best possible candidates for leadership, but let's look at the alternatives, shall we?

Loghain is a delusional paranoiac who ignores  the real and present threat of the Darkspawn in favour of chasing Orelsian monsters hiding under his bed. Whether or not his past traumas justify this, the simple fact of the matter is that the man is obviously unhinged. [/quote]

I think you're confusing his priorities. His plan as presented to the Bannorn was Step One: Kill some darkspawn, and do it fast because Step Two: The Orlesians are probably going to try something. Then he realized that some people geographically closer than either were plotting something, and he had to add a step zero. But you already covered that, since your next point is...

[quote]
He abandoned the battle at Ostagar (his motivations for doing this aren't all that important) and then expected to return to Denerim, publicly insult a much-loved, recently deceased public figure, and bully the Bannorn into following him. And then he acts surprised when his behaviour attracts suspicion instead of unwavering loyalty! He clearly has no concept of tact or diplomacy himself. [/quote]

He's thinking like a general at this point, not a king. He should be thinking like a king, but he isn't. One wonders why Maric kept offering him the throne.

[quote]
He then devotes a considerable amount of resources to the task of hunting down and killing two Grey Wardens. Let's re-examine that: while the darkspawn are ravaging the countryside, he is playing hide and seek with two men who are travelling all over the country. Teryn Loghain needs priority readjustment badly! [/quote]

You mean a considerable amount of resources relative to one person's income, or a considerable amount of resources relative to what he has? Or did you mean a considerable amount of overkill?

The first one is true. The second probably isn't, since he had one merc meant to go after the Wardens specifically (I get the feeling Zevran's minions were subcontractors hired in Ferelden, but either way this isn't a large addition relative to Ferelden's crown's wealth), four mercs rounding up dissidents who supported the Wardens (they seem to have found a number of them) and an unspecified but large amount of money for any non-Crow who takes the Wardens down. Loghain has the resources of an entire country at his command, this can't be too much of a stretch even considering his dire financial straights. And since you survive it, it's hardly overkill.

As for why he does it, that's well explained in the above posts. Let me add, however, that apparently it took the entire Ferelden military to throw 100 Wardens who didn't want to leave out of Ferelden. (I can't see the above posts, and don't remember whether that's mentioned.)

[quote]
And then there's Anora: the self-proclaimed "brains behind the crown".

As Queen, she could've assumed authority and rallied the people. This would've been relatively easy to do. She was a much-loved figure in her own right and she has more tact and grace than Loghain. [/quote]

You know that thing were civilan authority steps aside in favor of military rule because of (and only for the duration of) a crisis? This is basically that. She doesn't know what to do, Loghain thinks he does, she hands over the crown with instructions that there be something left to hand back to her.

[quote]
What did she actually do? Virtually nothing. She sat back and watched as her father sent the country into a spiral of self-destruction. She made no effort to repair the bridges Loghain had burnt (one throwaway line to Bann Teagan doesn't count), and she failed to stand up to him in either a public or a private setting. Some people might be inclined to cut her some slack here because Loghain is her father. I am not. If she can't put aside personal feelings and do her goddamn job in a time of national crisis, then she doesn't deserve her job. [/quote]

She trusts him for most of the game. It's only shortly into the Landsmeet arc that she starts to wonder if she should be standing up to her father. And in order to either confirm or deny her suspicions she... what does she do again?

[quote]
The only time she does anything of consequence, she takes a lesson from the Princess Peach school of politics, blundering into the clutches of the obviously untrustworthy Arl Howe, and gets herself captured! Girl power! [/quote]

Heh, right. Okay, not her best move. In fairness to her, she thought he wouldn't dare, partially because Queen, partially because Loghain. In equal fairness to her, she really should have known better, because Bryce Cousland.

[quote]
Once rescued, she has the audacity to brag about being the true intellectual power behind Cailan's charismatic manner, but that claim holds absolutely no water when the Warden returns to Ostagar and discovers that Cailan was acting behind the backs of both Anora and her father, arranging a secret alliance and possibly even marriage with Empress Celene. Looks like there was more to Cailan than meets the eye! One can hardly blame him for getting sick of being shackled to an uppitty nag who apparently treated him like an infant. [/quote]

His inital response to the letter urging him to set aside Anora was to crumple it up. So, he wasn't doing it for emotional reasons. He was simply considering the points Eamon had made, and decided they held water, though it seems he wished they didn't.

As for the wisdom of this move, one of the reasons given that Cailan was unfit to be King was that he had forgotten what the Orlesians were capable of. Of course, one could argue that he was merely proposing alliance, not marriage, except that Bioware seems to have nixed that the same way they nixed the idea that Loghain screwed Cailan on purpose.

[quote]
Anora can't even successfully maintain a happy relationship with her husband, but we're supposed to expect that she could maintain amiable connections with the entire Bannorn, not to mention the various dignitaries of other countries? I'm not buying it. [/quote]

Well, she seems to have managed the first one, except politics. The Codex states that Ferelden admires her more than her husband, so there's that to mention. It also mentions that Celene respects her, though she seems to like her malleable husband slightly more...

[quote]
Alistair may be untested, but Anora and Loghain are proven failures. I'll take my chances with the rookie.[/quote]

Well, Alistair, hardened, yeah. Anora isn't as bad as you make her out to be, though. As for Loghain, he was strictly a temp worker. He didn't do as good a job as he could have, and did some things that from the POV of someone who knows all the facts were seriously uncalled for, but he admits that.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Once rescued, she has the audacity to brag about being the true intellectual power behind Cailan's charismatic manner, but that claim holds absolutely no water when the Warden returns to Ostagar and discovers that Cailan was acting behind the backs of both Anora and her father, arranging a secret alliance and possibly even marriage with Empress Celene. Looks like there was more to Cailan than meets the eye! One can hardly blame him for getting sick of being shackled to an uppitty nag who apparently treated him like an infant.

She knew about Cailan's plans, as DAII tells us.

Plaintiff wrote...

He then devotes a considerable amount of resources to the task of hunting down and killing two Grey Wardens. Let's re-examine that: while the darkspawn are ravaging the countryside, he is playing hide and seek with two men who are travelling all over the country. Teryn Loghain needs priority readjustment badly!

He wasn't sending out soldiers throughout the entire countryside looking for them. He sent out an assassin to intercept them, left soldiers at Lothering which is the first spot anyone who survived Ostagar would've visited, and left bounty hunters at Orzammar's gates.

Along with issuing a nationwide bounty so that other people -- citizens and guards for cities -- would try and apprehend them. It's not like he spent thousands of sovereigns and devoted the entire army to trying to bring in two Wardens.

I think he knew where the Wardens would head and made sure he sent people there, so that he wouldn't have to devote resources to finding them.

Plaintiff wrote...

He clearly has no concept of tact or diplomacy himself.

That's certainly true. No one's ever claimed Loghain's a capable politician. He's a horrendous politician.

Heh, right. Okay, not her best move. In fairness to her, she thought he wouldn't dare, partially because Queen, partially because Loghain. In equal fairness to her, she really should have known better, because Bryce Cousland.

True, she should've expected it. I'm willing to think that she did expect to be imprisoned, because she went there demanding answers from Howe on what his intentions were. As Erlina said, Howe is privy to the secrets the top brass has, but isn't very subtle about anything.

I think she knew full well what would happen, hence why she had a confidant. Howe couldn't just kill the Queen on a visit to his estate because it would look suspicious if the Queen -- daughter of Loghain and a person that hasn't opposed him, though she has questioned him -- suddenly turned up dead or was said to have been "missing" for long periods of time.

At that point, she had only been in Howe's estate for a brief amount of time. Not long enough to arouse suspicion. Perhaps a day or two.

Plaintiff wrote...

Cailan's enthusiasm for battle could've easily been an act to boost troop morale. Choosing to fight alongside his men was not an inherently foolish decision. People value a leader who demonstrates that he is willing to get his hands dirty. We will never know what was truly going on in his mind.

While his actions may have boosted morale -- that's certainly what it would do, anyway -- I highly doubt those were his reasons for fighting in the battle.

So I'll be fighting besides the mighty Grey Wardens in the battle. Glorious! -- Cailan (rough paraphrase).

Add into that how he...
 
1)charges out of the valley like a ******, which further reduced the chances of the plan succeeding -- though Loghain's plan probably would've failed anyway, with what forces Ferelden had there and the forces the Darkspawn sent.
2) thinks the Grey Wardens can win the battle with ease just because they're there based off of legends and tall tales (despite how there is truth in that they're necessary, they are not solely capable of defeating the Darkspawn and Blights. They do need assistance)
3) wants to end the Blights in a battle where his name will go down in history by plunging Maric's blade into the Archdemon's skull
4) as a kid was easily distracted by the mere presence of swords (understandable as that may be, it's something he didn't seem to grow out of)
5) believes Eamon just wants "in on the glory" when reminding Cailan that reinforcements could arrive soon.

...and I highly doubt that morale was why he was doing it. Loghain himself believes that Cailan was a child wanting to play at war -- and all of Cailan's actions and statements support this conclusion. He has no understanding of military strategy.

If he did, then he, Loghain, and Duncan would've continued pressing the Chantry for more Mages and Templars and made use of Ostagar's best feature -- the protective wall on both sides in the valley, where a group can form a phalanx.

Instead, he charged out.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 juillet 2012 - 11:22 .

[Get Magna Carter]

People aren't born good kings. Cailan was naive and foolish, if he had lived he might one day have become a good king.
It seems that if Alistair becomes King he does become a good King.
Loghain, on the other hand, was an awful "ruler", egotistical, sacrificing any principles he had.
Anora may have been a good administrator but there is more to ruling than that.

[TEWR]

Cailan was king for five years and he wasn't a good king.

I'm not going to assume that had he lived he magically would've become a halfway decent king like Alistair does months after his (Alistair's) coronation, if hardened. To do so just doesn't seem right, because of that very fact.

Even Maric and the Rebel Queen Moira were decent/good monarchs, despite having not been on the throne at the time and Maric only ascending to his rightful place on the throne when he fought in the rebellion -- and he didn't find strategies to be boring.

Unless The Stolen Throne says he did. Admittedly, I haven't read it. I know its contents main plot wise, but if there's anything on Maric's persona during battles I dunno.

[Blazomancer]

Faerunner wrote...

In Cailans' defense, (wow, never thought I'd say this) it's made very clear that he had a very sheltered upbrining and that he simply didn't care for ruling (a trait he seems to share with both his father and brother), so he left all the decision-making to his wife (who actually wanted to do it). Cailan wasn't a good king in part because his circumstances and upbringing never forced him to be one. Everything was basically taken care of for him (first by his father when he was alive and then by his wife after his dad disappeared), so what was there for him to do except the stuff he wanted to do? And not enough people said boo to him when he did make decisions, so how was he supposed to learn without constant honest feedback (from people besides Loghain)?

When you tell him honestly what happened to you as City Elf or a Human Noble, he seems genuinely horrified by what he learns is happening in his kingdom and vows to make amends. He seems to want to be a genuinely good ruler (he basically tells a dwarf that he wishes to be as wise and noble as King Endrin) but the way he goes about it is terrible indeed. Maybe if he'd found himself in situations where he'd been forced to get a reality check and grow up, he might have gotten a chance to eventually become a better ruler. Or maybe he would have been just as bad a ruler after as before. We'll never know because he's dead now, but comparing him to Maric and Alistair seems... a bit unfair, because they had different circumstances and upbringings from him.

Exactly, I agree, after all fit or unfit is a relative term.

[lonelyloner]

Faerunner wrote...

In Cailans' defense, (wow, never thought I'd say this) it's made very clear that he had a very sheltered upbrining and that he simply didn't care for ruling (a trait he seems to share with both his father and brother), so he left all the decision-making to his wife (who actually wanted to do it). Cailan wasn't a good king in part because his circumstances and upbringing never forced him to be one. Everything was basically taken care of for him (first by his father when he was alive and then by his wife after his dad disappeared), so what was there for him to do except the stuff he wanted to do? And not enough people said boo to him when he did make decisions, so how was he supposed to learn without constant honest feedback (from people besides Loghain)?

When you tell him honestly what happened to you as City Elf or a Human Noble, he seems genuinely horrified by what he learns is happening in his kingdom and vows to make amends. He seems to want to be a genuinely good ruler (he basically tells a dwarf that he wishes to be as wise and noble as King Endrin) but the way he goes about it is terrible indeed. Maybe if he'd found himself in situations where he'd been forced to get a reality check and grow up, he might have gotten a chance to eventually become a better ruler. Or maybe he would have been just as bad a ruler after as before. We'll never know because he's dead now, but comparing him to Maric and Alistair seems... a bit unfair, because they had different circumstances and upbringings from him.

it seems a prevailing opinion is that Cailan was not a good king, not a good leader, not a good commander, blundered at Ostagar. I happen to disagree.

Cailan was popular with the troops. The army liked him and believed in his leadership. He otten mingled with them as well. One trait of being good leader is that: that your people believe in you.

What about his supposed overconfidence? Should that be blamed for Ostagar defeat?
Well few things I could see:
1. Cailan's not an insane man, he's reasonable guy.
And
2: as pointed out by Wynne in camp: Cailan's confidence reflects his troops confidence. And since he's popular with the army, that means his view is shared by his army as well. The troops thus are all probably very confident of victory, too.

So that means it's not only Cailan who's confident, the whole army was confident of victory.
How could that be?
My good guess is that their had only victories against the Darkspawn so far, and those victories were sound victories instead of phyrric victories, probably won with negligible damage to the Fereldan army. So of course they're all confident. Can anyone fault that?

As to why Cailan seem to take unnecessary risk in that battle of Ostagar?
Simple: because he believed in Loghain. The battle plan was devised by Loghain, his most trusted tactician and his greatest most successful most experienced general. And of course Cailan truly believed in Loghain's loyalty, and that Loghain will, despite their disagreements, do right by him in the end.

Had Loghain refuse to cooperate with the battle plan? Would Cailan still risk battle? Nope. He's not insane, he'd retreat. He dared offer battle partly because the troops morale were high due to their previous successes, and mostly because he's assured of Loghain's support.
And of course as we all already know, Loghain's expected support turned out to be such a big BS on his part.
And so Cailan got abandoned in battle and died, and probably got blamed too for the fail.

In hindsight perhaps it's Cailan's fault for failing to see changes in Loghain's loyalties.
...
Damn now i'm admitting Cailan's failed as king.
In my opinion Cailan's still a good leader. But he's not talented at intriques. Thus he could never have foreseen this betrayal by his most trusted friend.