262 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

In game, i don't see Loghain see the Warden and alistair a traitor, he just accuse Grey Warden kill the King. remember that. You hear about that as soon as you arrive at Lothering.

In-game, yes, it's ambigous. I've already explained, however, the less ambigous stuff outside the actual game, including a note to the voice actor that says "Don't voice-act like Loghain's faking his indignation, he isn't."

Why he accuse Grey warden kill the King? Why he twisted the story? It is because he want any Fereldens meet grey warden, they will kill them on sight...some farmers do want to kill the Warden because of the bounty... But most people don't believe the accusation anyway, because it is ridiculous, only Loghain men believe it fanatically..

I'd like to repeat the suggestion that we find somewhere else for this conversation, preferably someplace that isn't marked "No Spoilers."

I'd also like to point out that while his accusations are what you would expect to see if he was trying to unfairly discredit the Grey Wardens, they are also what you'd expect to see if he honestly had no idea what happened in the Tower. If Eamon and Teagan think of it as ridiculous, that's because they know Alistair personally. As far as I know, most of Loghain's supporters don't, nor does Loghain himself.

As for people believing it... once again, most of the Landsmeet seems to support Loghain going into that story arc, and he does have enough men to win the actual Civil War (as defined by the part where Ferelden soldiers are trying to kill each other in the fields), even if the Landsmeet doesn't end up going his way. Does this indicate that the country believes him? One could argue either way, considering that he is the Regent, and thus arguably the legitimate authority.

Uldred maybe don't know about darkspawn in the tower, but Loghain know. Loghain can just make the Revered Mother shut up, she is not a strategist, she just being busy body in the war council. if i am Loghain, i will tell her to shut up and go praying.

Why Loghain don't agree with Uldred?

Because just because the Priest is incompetent doesn't mean he's willing to openly defy her. He does a lot of things that are bigger insults to the Chantry, but never openly. In that context, one might wonder if he meant any of his promises to Uldred, but never mind that.

As you know, lower rank soldiers just follow orders, they don't know anything, so they are just a pawn in the chess, Loghain just place some of his men at the Tower as sacrifice...when you enter the Tower, darkspawn are already taken the Tower.

Actually, no, I don't know that. It seems that if they realized there were darkspawn, they'd tell someone. Especially considering that the darkspawn almost certainly wouldn't understand the ruse and would attack the people sent to cover them up.

So what are Loghain guard say they are investigating at? "Lower Chamber"...yeah you can see that "Lower Chamber" in the tower where darkspawn coming through

The Lower Chamber is another possible developer oversight. Or it could mean something else, did he explicitly say "underground?" (I never saw that bit.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

"lower Chamber" is a LIE, there is no lower chamber, but darkspawn hole, they know darkspawn is digging under the tower but tell no one about it, that is why Loghain order no one can enter the tower until the battle

You didn't answer my question about whether or not it's explicitly stated to be underground. He could as easily be referring to a chamber on the ground floor, I guess, though it is an odd turn of phrase.

It is planned by Loghain since the beginning, he plan to coup...it is only that what he planned not as what he expected, it is really a Blight

If you see clearly,
- Howe attack Highever, one of the faction loyal to the King, Howe become Loghain right hand

I don't know exactly when, but apparently the head writer confirmed Loghain only started working with Howe after that, and he had no part in it.

- Arl Eamon got poisoned before the battle, Arl Eamon is Cailan uncle

Because he thought Eamon was trying to persuade Cailan to divorce Anora: I already pointed this out. Arguably a minor coup, but one that revolves around Cailan not dying.

- the Tower is a restricted area because the so called "Lower Chamber"

Seriously, could you be please be more specific on exactly what the guard says? I haven't seen this part.

- darkspawn infested the tower already when the two wardens get in

They work fast, don't they? (I've got nothing here, except that the authors have specifically rejected your theory, and thus individual points don't really matter anyway.)

- Loghain retreat when the beacon is light

This is no more consistent with your theory than it is with mine.

- Loghain accuse Grey Warden who kill the King, Ferelden Grey Warden is loyal to the King

Again, that's because it's what he believes to have happened. He doesn't realize Alistar is loyal. I should note that the writers also said he wanted to believe that the Wardens set them up because believing the alternative (that Cailan died because he's a moron) was more painful. (That said, the Warden's case really doesn't look good from where Loghain's standing.)

He blusters about Orlesian, outside threat, throughout the game to the end, you never see Orlesian in anyway, if Orlesian really want Ferelden, then as soon as Ferelden have no king, in Civil War, and with darkspawn problem, they will set foot in Ferelden soil...that is war stratagem...so it is all Loghain LIES...there is NO outside threat from Orlais

He is noted ingame to have gone a little overboard with his xenophobia, and I'm not denying that bit.

don't you see it? if not then i can't say anything else...

Nope, don't see it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 juin 2012 - 10:33 .

[DeathScepter]

Actually In Dragon Age 2, Orlesian nobles wanted to recover Felden(msp) again. And Cailan was sleeping with the Empress and was willing to dump Anora for a better queen.

Either thru armies or intrigue, They wanted the throne again under their heel.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

No matter what, i see through the Warden eye, that is the personal character i play, so in the game, what she see, hear, watched, feel, the infos she got, the rumors she got, the gossips...everything...what the hell she know anything about Cailan secret affair or whatsoever...?

That is not role-playing...

"Oh...Loghain retreat from the battle because Cailan have an affair with Orlesian princess, he poison Arl Eamon because of he know the Arl ask Cailan to divorce Anora, he also hire assassins to kill me because he think i am a traitor, it is okay, no heart feeling, it is all just business...^_^"- The Warden

The warden never actually see Loghain retreat, she know it from Morrigan, then at Lothering she is accused as the King murderer and somebody want to kill her, then she manage to interrogate an assassin, then lured into a trap almost get killed too because of it and...and...and...

With all that...at the landsmeet...."okay, i let you live because you are a hero, cheer up! ;)"

Of course everybody are free to have own view, taken from outside game stuff, DA2, books or something...

A Warden can find out about Cailan's treachery by playing RTO .

As for your dainty little quote, no, that's not my reason for sparing him.

I don't suppose it's Riordan's reason either, given that he heavily suggests doing so... But hey, what does a SENIOR WARDEN know compared to a Warden RECRUIT who knows next to nothing about actually being a Warden? <_<

[Jedimaster88]

[
A Warden can find out about Cailan's treachery by playing RTO .

As for your dainty little quote, no, that's not my reason for sparing him.

I don't suppose it's Riordan's reason either, given that he heavily suggests doing so... But hey, what does a SENIOR WARDEN know compared to a Warden RECRUIT who knows next to nothing about actually being a Warden? <_<

[/quote]

A senior grey warden who dares to say "what does loyalty matter?". Really???!!! So you´re saying that loyalty and trust dont matter at all? Well when working in a group I believe that trust and loyalty are EVERYTHING if the group wants to survive. I WONT accept people that I dont trust.

Oh and earlier he tells you about being loyal to your brothers and all. Where is his loyalty to Alistair when Anora intends to execute him??? Where is his loyalty to the man who already is a warden??? Why do you just stand there silent and let another of your brothers to die??? Its like everything you said before has absolutely no meaning and was just big pile of garbage.

Not to mention he doesnt mention all the necessary info he should mention in the landsmeet. Instead he just says cryptic words. That doesnt tell much.

He tells the warden that he/she seems to have learned all the IMPORTANT stuff already.

Riordan is a cool guy and he has his moments but he has spent a lot of time in that dungeon so he really has no true idea what the warden and Alistair have been forced to go through all this time.

Because of these things Im not willing to do everything he says even if he is senior.

[Persephone]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

A senior grey warden who dares to say "what does loyalty matter?". Really???!!! So you´re saying that loyalty and trust dont matter at all? Well when working in a group I believe that trust and loyalty are EVERYTHING if the group wants to survive. I WONT accept people that I dont trust.

Oh and earlier he tells you about being loyal to your brothers and all. Where is his loyalty to Alistair when Anora intends to execute him??? Where is his loyalty to the man who already is a warden??? Why do you just stand there silent and let another of your brothers to die??? Its like everything you said before has absolutely no meaning and was just big pile of garbage.

Not to mention he doesnt mention all the necessary info he should mention in the landsmeet. Instead he just says cryptic words. That doesnt tell much.

He tells the warden that he/she seems to have learned all the IMPORTANT stuff already.

Riordan is a cool guy and he has his moments but he has spent a lot of time in that dungeon so he really has no true idea what the warden and Alistair have been forced to go through all this time.

Because of these things Im not willing to do everything he says even if he is senior.

Loyalty does not matter to the Wardens. It never has. Sad but true.

And Loghain turns out to be fiercely loyal, no matter HOW you treat him.

Opposing a fellow Warden isn't the same as opposing a ruling queen. Political acumen, tragic though it may be.

Loyalty to a Warden throwing a childish, vengeful tantrum? Yeah, no.

The Wardens' secrecy always galled me. Duncan was the same way. Never once telling Cailan that he actually could not slay Archie with his Daddy's sword.... It's negligent and stupid.

So yes, I'll recruit a brilliant strategist and be happy for the company. He doesn't disappoint either. It's Alistair who forswears his oath, betrays the order because he doesn't get his way and that's all I need to know never to make him king alone.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

What the Grey Wardens are doing?

The Blight have covered up the map, Archdemon is flying everywhere, where the hell are Grey Wardens? Don't they sense it? They only sent Riordan???

Yes, what are the "loyal" Wardens doing? Hanging you out to dry, that's what.

And they have done this before. They even allied with the darkspawn once. They committed treason TWICE. So yeah, my opinion on the Wardens differs from Alistair's in every way.

And Riordan is right in the end. That's all that matters to me.

[Persephone]

Faerunner wrote...

It's not exactly Riordan's fault that he got ambushed, imprisoned and tortured for over a year. The man is not lacking in skills of his own, since it takes literally only one second of distraction for him to take out his guard, steal a uniform and sneak out all on his own, which implies that he was under VERY TIGHT lock and key. (Imagine if any of his guards slipped up earlier in the year, he'd have been gone.)

If the Warden was in the same position as him, s/he would not have faired much better. It was only circumstances that made her Warden and army-gatherer instead of dead or imprisoned herself. If you remember correctly, it was DUNCAN that saved her from whatever threatened to imprison/kill her at the end of the Origin and it was FLEMETH that saved her from being overwhelmed by darkspawn at the top of the Ishal Tower. She was just as affected by external circumstances as Riordan, it's just that her circumstances happened to be different from his.

And yes, the novice that has been a Warden for less than a year (Origins takes place in under a year), not two) and doesn't even know that a Warden needs to strike the killing blow to defeat the Archdemon is clearly "more of a Warden" than the seasoned veteran that has been a Warden for 20-30 years and who actually knows his Grey Warden lore.

Dear, Riordan was sent with a whole group of Grey Wardens to Fereldan and Loghain intercepted, imprisoned, tortured and killed most of them because they were from Orlais. Riordan is all that's left of his group.

The reason more Wardens aren't around in Fereldan is because they're not welcome in Fereldan. (Considering what happens to Riordan when he enters a hostile country, that's no small matter.) Most of them are stationed in the Anderfels and Orlais, and they didn't all migrate because they can't exactly sense darkspawn from over hundreds and thousands of miles away. (Alistair flat-out says you can only sense darkspawn when they're close by.) All they can do is send Warden scouts to different regions to watch the darkspawn and wait for any unusual activity, and report back to decide what to do. Even those in Fereldan aren't sure it's a true Blight until it's too late, and by then Loghain abandons them all to be slaughtered and intercepts all reinforcements. Also, getting into contact with the Grey Wardens is extremely slow and difficult (especially Loghain's on a Warden hunt), travel's even slower and waiting for reinforcements is not an option because the Blight is spreading too fast. (Again, game takes place over months, not years.) Alistair and the Warden gather the army because they're the only Wardens within a few hundred mile radius that aren't dead or locked up.

So, yeah, the Warden just happened to be in the right place at the right time. All things considered, not that special.

Almost all correct. Except that Riordan was actually scouting alone and intercepted by Howe, not Loghain.

The Wardens are BOUND to know of the Blight, that they do NOTHING is astonishing to me. And that they would not be welcome after the horrors they committed in THE CALLING, never mind having 4 legions of Orlesian chevaliers in tow...is hardly surprising. As Riordan said, the Empress and the Wardens have written Ferelden off. David Gaider even said that if Duncan had survived the debacle at Ostagar, he too would have left Ferelden for Orlais, thus abandoning Ferelden to the Blight to fight it from Orlais. Strategically sound, ruthless and extreme. Yes. Tragic? That too. Thank God Alistair never knew that.

[Jedimaster88]

Persephone wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

A senior grey warden who dares to say "what does loyalty matter?". Really???!!! So you´re saying that loyalty and trust dont matter at all? Well when working in a group I believe that trust and loyalty are EVERYTHING if the group wants to survive. I WONT accept people that I dont trust.

Oh and earlier he tells you about being loyal to your brothers and all. Where is his loyalty to Alistair when Anora intends to execute him??? Where is his loyalty to the man who already is a warden??? Why do you just stand there silent and let another of your brothers to die??? Its like everything you said before has absolutely no meaning and was just big pile of garbage.

Not to mention he doesnt mention all the necessary info he should mention in the landsmeet. Instead he just says cryptic words. That doesnt tell much.

He tells the warden that he/she seems to have learned all the IMPORTANT stuff already.

Riordan is a cool guy and he has his moments but he has spent a lot of time in that dungeon so he really has no true idea what the warden and Alistair have been forced to go through all this time.

Because of these things Im not willing to do everything he says even if he is senior.

Loyalty to a Warden throwing a childish, vengeful tantrum? Yeah, no.

So yes, I'll recruit a brilliant strategist and be happy for the company. He doesn't disappoint either. It's Alistair who forswears his oath, betrays the order because he doesn't get his way and that's all I need to know never to make him king alone.

So you´re saying that Alistair has absolutely no right to be angry for Loghain and no right to want revenge or that Loghain has done absolutely nothing to deserve death? I hardly call his hate childish. After all the sh**t Loghain throws at them, he has EVERY right to be angry. I would be too.

You speak as if the "perfect" Anora or Loghain dont do something when they dont get their way. The landsmeet is an ugly happening where none of the key characters show their best qualities.

[Persephone]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

A senior grey warden who dares to say "what does loyalty matter?". Really???!!! So you´re saying that loyalty and trust dont matter at all? Well when working in a group I believe that trust and loyalty are EVERYTHING if the group wants to survive. I WONT accept people that I dont trust.

Oh and earlier he tells you about being loyal to your brothers and all. Where is his loyalty to Alistair when Anora intends to execute him??? Where is his loyalty to the man who already is a warden??? Why do you just stand there silent and let another of your brothers to die??? Its like everything you said before has absolutely no meaning and was just big pile of garbage.

Not to mention he doesnt mention all the necessary info he should mention in the landsmeet. Instead he just says cryptic words. That doesnt tell much.

He tells the warden that he/she seems to have learned all the IMPORTANT stuff already.

Riordan is a cool guy and he has his moments but he has spent a lot of time in that dungeon so he really has no true idea what the warden and Alistair have been forced to go through all this time.

Because of these things Im not willing to do everything he says even if he is senior.

Loyalty to a Warden throwing a childish, vengeful tantrum? Yeah, no.

So yes, I'll recruit a brilliant strategist and be happy for the company. He doesn't disappoint either. It's Alistair who forswears his oath, betrays the order because he doesn't get his way and that's all I need to know never to make him king alone.

So you´re saying that Alistair has absolutely no right to be angry for Loghain and no right to want revenge or that Loghain has done absolutely nothing to deserve death? I hardly call his hate childish. After all the sh**t Loghain throws at them, he has EVERY right to be angry. I would be too.

You speak as if the "perfect" Anora or Loghain dont do something when they dont get their way. The landsmeet is an ugly happening where none of the key characters show their best qualities.

Oh, he has every right to be angry. He may also want revenge for what he sees as a betrayal (I do not). I simply won't bow to his desires because they are, yes, childish and even primitive in their primal bloodlust and sentimentality. Understandable? Yes. Something I'd want? No. I'd want to steer my lover/friend away from urges such as these. They are in no way improving his character but will only blot it.

Anora rarely does something wrong when she doesn't get her way. She calculates the risks and acts accordingly. Does she make mistakes? Sure. She's still young. As is Alistair. They can both be pretty mulish. But Anora has competence and experience on her side. She's not perfect though. Neither is Loghain. But their motivations aren't primal, childish urges. When defeated, Loghain surrenders honorably. He accepts whatever fate the Warden decrees with dignity. And true, the Landsmeet shows nobody at their best. Agreed. But the results can vary in tragedy and hope.

My best case scenario is: Ali marries the pretty blonde and I get the broody snarker on my side. 

[Dave of Canada]

I understand why Alistair is angry, he has every right to be. However, storming off because he doesn't get his way and saying he hopes the Blight kills us all doesn't appear as leadership material. Even if he does stay, his attitude towards the crown isn't because he desires to lead, he does it out of spite.

Alistair is a poor king.

[gandanlin]

I didn't read Alistair that way, not as spiteful, at any rate. Immature at times maybe, but not spiteful.

I also read the darkspawn Blight as being a metaphor for the darkness and evil that can spread inside the hearts of men, elves, and dwarves. There is an internal war that is being fought just as much as there is an external war.

If Alistair walks away, it is his way of saying that he believes the Blight has won the internal war, and the external war has become, to him at least, irrelevant. Maybe that is a bit melodramatic, I don't know, but that is how I read his behavior.

[Klidi]

I usually harden Alistair, and then he doesn't have any problem with taking the throne. He's immature in the beginning, yes, but he has potential to become a great king. Though I normally don't let Loghain live, so that also helps. I tried to recruit him once, and the arrogant nonsense he spouts, especially on Wynne, irritated me so much I didn't use him, in the end.

And I definitely don't see Cailan as stupid. He's jovial, yes. Talks lightly about serious things - *gasp* how awful! But:
- they already won few battles,
- even without Eamon's men, they already had reinforcements (at least men under Fergus),
- there was no sign of the Archdemon and the only proof that it was the Blight were Duncan's dreams
= so he had no reason to doubt that they would win at Ostagar, too. Especially with the strategy of the famous general, the Hero of River Dane... right?

The only stupid thing Cailan did was that he trusted Loghain, that the man will be able to overcome their disagreements over Anora for the good of Fereldans.
Once again, and despite to his promise to Maric, Loghain pulled out of the battle because of one man, leaving the soldiers to die. The only difference was that with Maric, he did it to save the king, and with Cailan, he did it to kill the king. In both cases, if he stayed in the battle, he could have make difference, and save at least some of the people.

So Cailan's biggest mistake was that he didn't get rid of Loghain and Anora long before Ostagar. It would spare Ferelden much trouble, and save many men.

[dragonflight288]

My own take is this.

Cailan was an idiot, wanting to play hero and chase glory and legends on the front line. Even if Loghain charged, Cailan had deliberately put himself in harms way and could easily have been killed before Loghain may have charged. There's a reason a King is usually at the back of a field surrounded by honor guards, overseeing the battle and giving orders as needed.

Loghain threw away his honor to pursue an agenda. He desired to save Ferelden. His biggest problem was, that he surrounded himself with not only the wrong people (Howe) but he targeted the wrong people and named them the largest threat. He accuses the Wardens of being Orlesian spies (How much did it cost the Orlesians to buy your loyalty? Where is the famous steadfastness of the dwarves?) at the landsmeet, because he honestly believes that. Everywhere he looks, he sees Orlesian plots.

Cailan was going to marry Celene and divorce Anora. Duncan and the Wardens came from Orlais. And they requested a large number of reinforcements, who were to be accompanied by four legions of Chevaliers. Loghain saw no Archdemon, and had no proof that there even was a blight, so he dismissed the need for reinforcements and thought the Chevaliers were coming in to conquer Ferelden again.

He makes a lot of mistakes, and we, the Warden, have to suffer through them. What he does is enough to earn a death sentence, and the evidence can be gathered to showcase that he's a traitor, whether he believes it or not. And his paranoia of Orlais overrides he common sense. Believes he's the only one capable of defending Ferelden.

Anora, capable ruler with plenty of experience. Believed to be barren because she and Cailan went five years without a child. If this is true, then any line with her on the throne won't last long. Full of ambition, and as Alistair says, believes only she can get the job done. The Landsmeet was a threat to her power, and she utilizes every tool she has to maximize her chances of keeping the throne. Playing the hostage (and actually becoming one because Howe is nuts) striking a bargain with the Warden, but will only support the Warden if we both support her claim to the throne AND agree to find a way to spare her father, otherwise she'll betray her word and support Loghain at the Landsmeet. Has a compelling argument for staying in power.

Alistair: Good man, potentially horrible politician. Unhardened, he's submissive and goes out of his way to be what everyone had told him he was. A man with no claim to the throne whatsoever, follows the lead of a raw recruit (good thing my Warden was an experience fighter for the dwarves, and was just named commander before....stuff happened.) Will follow any suggestion Eamon or the Warden will make.

IF HARDENED

He stands up for himself. He makes more and more pragmatic decisions, and actually wants to be king, not because he wants to spite Loghain, but because he thinks that if given enough time, he can make a great King, much better than Anora as Queen, citing her being Loghain's daughter, both believing only they can do the job and would do anything for their ambition or goal and let that get in the way of actually doing the job.

If we spare Loghain, I think Alistair has every right to be angry. Loghain did spen almost a full year trying to kill us, blamed us for the death of Cailan, accused of being Orelesian spies, hired assassins to kill us, tortured Riordan, and was destroying the nobles in a civil war rather than fight the blight. But leaving in a huff, declaring that he hoped the blight killed us all, and trying to use power he didn't have at that moment to get Loghain executed....that's just plain childish. Unhardened, it's just petty. Hardened, well he's got a lot of maturing to do, but he's already on the path to it. Still childish.

I usually just settle it the dwarven way. Let the would-be rulers have a proving and duel to the death. Let the ancestors find whoever to be worthy.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

But Loghain is personal, everything that he do is his personal crisis with Cailan in which lead to many wrong doings and involve everyone. I take it personal too because he want to kill me and accusing me (and my Warden brothers and sisters) of a crime i (we) don't do, leaving my fellow wardens to death at Ostagar and making Wardens an enemy.

So the duel end, i am right, he is wrong, i live with my honor, he die in shame.

Everything he did was not "his personal crisis with Cailan". (Who is just as responsible) 

You take politics PERSONALLY? Like Alistair, I see. Yeah...ok.

You keep believing that.

Loghain dies with dignity, even strong enough to console his distraught daughter. Much more impressive than your "honor". Being vengeful, spiteful and bloodthirsty (Your arguments are nothing but that) isn't honorable to me. Clemency, pragmatism and shrewdness, now that I would admire.

Sorry, I am done talking to you. This black/white mentality and lack of political acumen, understanding and insight aren't convincing me. Never mind the ignorance on matters of warfare, tactics and lore (Both Ferelden and Loghain have plenty of reasons to be suspicious of the Wardens. They were guilty of treason twice and even allied with the darkspawn once! Inept, incompetent fools, the whole lot of them. And yes, that includes Duncan)

*Hops of soapbox*

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.

You'd condemn hundreds of thousands of innocents to death because of your precious "honor"?

Disgusting. Selfish. Utterly sickening and appalling. <_<