262 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.

If Alistair's made into a King and Loghain is alive, Arl Eamon still talks about Alistair wishing to fight. He does so as a King though, not as a Grey Warden.

He left the Warden's company if he was made a King, but he doesn't shirk his duties to Ferelden.

Not that you actually see him fighting, but you're told that he wishes to and that he's going to.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 04:52 .

[Chashan]

Persephone wrote...
 David Gaider even said that if Duncan had survived the debacle at Ostagar, he too would have left Ferelden for Orlais, thus abandoning Ferelden to the Blight to fight it from Orlais. Strategically sound, ruthless and extreme. Yes. Tragic? That too. Thank God Alistair never knew that.

That would have been a possible scenario? Granted, I do smirk when I see that father-murderer axed in the Ostagar-cutscene (I find the utter lack of polearms especially jarring there, to be had), but having that as a possible outcome and a possible change of stance on Alistair's part towards the Wardens would have been a fascinating thing to have in the game.

Regarding the thread itself, I guess I feel even more convicted that, aside from the lulz had, executing Maric's line at the landsmeet is apparently a good thing if that man was already prone to vain silliness. With Anora on the throne, even if she remains without heirs of her own blood Ferelden is in competent hands for years to come, giving ample time to set up a new line in succession. Somewhat comparable to another historic setup that ended quite well...

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

To be fair, Nizaris, he had men stationed there. No one expected the darkspawn to tunnel underneath the battle lines and come up from the rear. I doubt Loghain even knew the darkspawn were there. From his perspective, it was simply the Grey Wardens taking a very long time to light the signal.

Although I have to question just what kind of general keeps lower chambers open on the eve of an important battle in a fortress that he knew nothing about despite the character being described as wanting to know the borders of his homeland and every tactical place about it.

He should've had those lower chambers collapsed so that the Darkspawn wouldn't be able to tunnel their way through into the Tower.

Better yet, he should have explored Ostagar in the past, because it's a critical fortress on the edge of the Korcari Wilds -- especially when there's the Chasind barbarians that are ignored "at Ferelden's own risk" -- and made a detailed map of everything about the area.

And then collapsed the lower chambers when the Blight began. Because those lower chambers led directly into the Wilds, where the Darkspawn were. So keeping them opened up is probably the worst thing to do.

Really, a lot of what was done at Ostagar prior to the battle goes against Loghain's established character.

Chashan wrote....

I do smirk when I see that father-murderer axed in the Ostagar-cutscene

I don't. It gets me everytime when he dies. He never wanted to kill Jory and the Wardens do what they have to in order to defeat the Blight.

He obviously didn't want to do it and he felt horrible about it, knowing that he'd live with that for the rest of his life -- short as it was.

Jory drew his weapon first. Duncan only took out a dagger in case Jory started to attack. Jory then attacked first. Self-defense is what it was.

Although a good conk to the head and dumping the Darkspawn blood down Jory's throat would've also worked, but then we wouldn't have seen some of what the extreme things the Wardens must do to defeat the Blight are.

Jory was a coward and an idiot, always trying to back out of what the Wardens asked him to do. While I didn't wish him dead for his persona, it was entirely his own fault for why he died.

Especially when he himself said, before the Joining was started, that he wanted to see it through to the end.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 05:09 .

[Persephone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

To be fair, Nizaris, he had men stationed there. No one expected the darkspawn to tunnel underneath the battle lines and come up from the rear. I doubt Loghain even knew the darkspawn were there. From his perspective, it was simply the Grey Wardens taking a very long time to light the signal.

Although I have to question just what kind of general keeps lower chambers open on the eve of an important battle in a fortress that he knew nothing about despite the character being described as wanting to know the borders of his homeland and every tactical place about it.

He should've had those lower chambers collapsed so that the Darkspawn wouldn't be able to tunnel their way through into the Tower.

Better yet, he should have explored Ostagar in the past, because it's a critical fortress on the edge of the Korcari Wilds -- especially when there's the Chasind barbarians that are ignored "at Ferelden's own risk" -- and made a detailed map of everything about the area.

And then collapsed the lower chambers when the Blight began. Because those lower chambers led directly into the Wilds, where the Darkspawn were. So keeping them opened up is probably the worst thing to do.

Lotsa truth there.

And had he had more time (He basically handled the whole war effort alone, Cailan was no help. Cailan's own soldiers and Alistair as well as Duncan say so) he probably would have done that. Also, without explosives, constant battles and a hopelessly outnumbered army, such an endeavour would have been VERY risky as well.

[Chashan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

To be fair, Nizaris, he had men stationed there. No one expected the darkspawn to tunnel underneath the battle lines and come up from the rear. I doubt Loghain even knew the darkspawn were there. From his perspective, it was simply the Grey Wardens taking a very long time to light the signal.

Although I have to question just what kind of general keeps lower chambers open on the eve of an important battle in a fortress that he knew nothing about despite the character being described as wanting to know the borders of his homeland and every tactical place about it.

He should've had those lower chambers collapsed so that the Darkspawn wouldn't be able to tunnel their way through into the Tower.

Better yet, he should have explored Ostagar in the past, because it's a critical fortress on the edge of the Korcari Wilds -- especially when there's the Chasind barbarians that are ignored "at Ferelden's own risk" -- and made a detailed map of everything about the area.

And then collapsed the lower chambers when the Blight began. Because those lower chambers led directly into the Wilds, where the Darkspawn were. So keeping them opened up is probably the worst thing to do.

The thing concerning this is, how common a type of tactic is tunneling supposed to be in Thedas?

Comparing the rough technological level of at least Ferelden to actual history, I'd place it somewhere in the late middle-ages. Far as I am aware, tunneling was only ever used in siege-warfare then, even before that  in antiquity which is regarded as being more advanced in many areas than medieval times, and truly offensively only in the Renaissance.
Given that, can Mr Mac Tir truly be faulted for not expecting such a move in a battle that was not set up as a siege, especially when tunneling is largely an unknown in that time and place?

Furthermore, he seemed none too happy about the choice of Ostagar as the stage for the confrontation in the first place, maybe due to tactical concerns, but likely due to the at best sketchy information on it. Also, if it has been abandoned, that likely happened with reason as well.

Modifié par Chashan, 13 juin 2012 - 05:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

To bring this back on topic, that's precisely why men like Alistair are not fit to rule over a restroom, let alone a kingdom.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.

You'd condemn hundreds of thousands of innocents to death because of your precious "honor"?

Disgusting. Selfish. Utterly sickening and appalling. <_<

Why not? They all got what they deserve! If that what they want, that what they got.

I have done everything to defend the people, but the people betray me, so curse them all...i don't care

They? There's a handful of people in that Landsmeet Chamber.

So it's all about precious YOU. Not the greater good. Not defeating the Blight. Not saving Ferelden/all of Thedas. But you and your petty, vengeful self-importance.

Hundreds of thousands of innocents.... Men, women and children....

Did the children "deserve" it too?

Your Warden sounds more monstrous than the worst images of Loghain his detractors love to paint.

Thank God most Commanders aren't like that.<_<

[jlb524]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.

You'd condemn hundreds of thousands of innocents to death because of your precious "honor"?

Disgusting. Selfish. Utterly sickening and appalling. <_<

Why not? They all got what they deserve! If that what they want, that what they got.

I have done everything to defend the people, but the people betray me, so curse them all...i don't care

"The people" didn't betray you.

A Grey Warden not protecting those people from the Blight is a betrayal, IMO.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

To bring this back on topic, that's precisely why men like Alistair are not fit to rule over a restroom, let alone a kingdom.

As Loghain says, with Anora to guide him, he'll do alright. But as he points out, doing alright isn't doing well.

He doesn't even want it (Fit of pique when he wants to kill Loghain excepted) and KNOWS that he isn't right for the job.

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

Lotsa truth there.

And had he had more time (He basically handled the whole war effort alone, Cailan was no help. Cailan's own soldiers and Alistair as well as Duncan say so) he probably would have done that. Also, without explosives, constant battles and a hopelessly outnumbered army, such an endeavour would have been VERY risky as well.

Magic could've done the trick. The Architect's magic managed to make an entire cavern entrance collapse. Also, there are explosives to be made from magical ingredients. They might've been able to help.

Really, Loghain should've pressed the Templars and Mages to join up with the forces at Ostagar. Only seven mages and a handful of Templars? That's absurd.

How the bloody hell can the Chantry even think that's acceptable, when the Wardens are saying it's a Blight?

Thankfully, Loghain did try that eventually. It went horribly awry, but at least he understood that they were needed. I just wish that he had done it sooner, when the Wardens said a Blight had begun.

With the entire Circle and Templars at his disposal -- along with many of the things that I feel would've helped Ostagar be a winnable battle -- then things might've been different.

Also, part of me wants to see an Abomination fighting off the Darkspawn numbers. If a Mage did turn into an Abomination but saw the Darkspawn, it might try and enslave them -- they have no concept of Darkspawn and are thus ignorant about them -- and then start fighting them.

Turns the loss of a Mage into a win-win scenario. Darkspawn die and the Abomination might die as well.

I actually imagine some Mages might just do that on purpose, if the Demon was willing to hold off on trying to enslave humanity.

"Look, you can have my body and soul, but only if you start killing Darkspawn left and right."

[Persephone]

jlb524 wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.

You'd condemn hundreds of thousands of innocents to death because of your precious "honor"?

Disgusting. Selfish. Utterly sickening and appalling. <_<

Why not? They all got what they deserve! If that what they want, that what they got.

I have done everything to defend the people, but the people betray me, so curse them all...i don't care

"The people" didn't betray you.

A Grey Warden not protecting those people from the Blight is a betrayal, IMO.

It's against everything the Wardens supposedly stands for. Loghain at least shows deep regret over Ostagar (Though it had to be done). Saying "They deserve it!" though? WOW...just WOW.

[TEWR]

Chasham wrote...

The thing concerning this is, how common a type of tactic is tunneling supposed to be in Thedas?

For Darkspawn, they're renowned for it. And they didn't need to do much tunneling to access the lower chambers. They knew where to dig and it immediately led to the lower chambers.

So taking steps to prevent the Darkspawn from tunneling under and into the Tower -- or even just keeping them at bay temporarily -- were needed.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nevermind, why do I get myself into this after all this time is beyond me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juin 2012 - 05:24 .

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

As Loghain says, with Anora to guide him, he'll do alright. But as he points out, doing alright isn't doing well.

He doesn't even want it (Fit of pique when he wants to kill Loghain excepted) and KNOWS that he isn't right for the job.

Although with a hardened Alistair and Anora on the throne, Ferelden does more then "alright". Alistair even goes to Kirkwall hoping to gain the aid of at least that city-state and at most -- IMO anyway -- the entire Free Marches, for threat of an Orlesian invasion.

That, to me, says Ferelden is in good hands.

And hell, if Maric comes back into the picture and rules Ferelden again, then Ferelden is definitely in good hands. Or at least helps advise Alistair and Anora, but leaves decisions up to them.

Maric has the requisite beard of awesomeness, so he has to be a good king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Maric has the requisite beard of awesomeness, so he has to be a good king.

Ha, he's an imbecile like the rest of his family. Including Calenhad I might add.

Even if we are to assume that the visit to Kirkwall was to gain an ally, it was stupid. The city is controlled by Meredith and the Chantry, who do you think they would side with?
He shyould have sent an ambassador (not himself) to Nevarra and city-states other than Kirkwall, unless he was willing to assist nobles to overthrow Meredith which he didn't.
But it's obvious that the writers didn't think about it that way, but just wanted a meaningless cameo.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juin 2012 - 05:28 .

[Persephone]

[quote]Nizaris1 wrote...

[quote]Persephone wrote...

Everything he did was not "his personal crisis with Cailan". (Who is just as responsible) [/quote]

Everything he done is his personal vendetta against Cailan

[quote]Persephone wrote...
You take politics PERSONALLY? Like Alistair, I see. Yeah...ok. [/quote]

I take everything personally even this post

[quote]Persephone wrote...
Loghain dies with dignity, even strong enough to console his distraught daughter. Much more impressive than your "honor". Being vengeful, spiteful and bloodthirsty (Your arguments are nothing but that) isn't honorable to me. Clemency, pragmatism and shrewdness, now that I would admire.[/quote]

he die in shame, he lost the duel that determine who is right and who is wrong, that duel is the last resort to defend each other honor, he lost and he lost everything, he lost his honor, his name, his family and his life end there

[quote]Persephone wrote...
Sorry, I am done talking to you. This black/white mentality and lack of political acumen, understanding and insight aren't convincing me. Never mind the ignorance on matters of warfare, tactics and lore (Both Ferelden and Loghain have plenty of reasons to be suspicious of the Wardens. They were guilty of treason twice and even allied with the darkspawn once! Inept, incompetent fools, the whole lot of them. And yes, that includes Duncan)[/quote]

You don't want to talk to me? i don't hold you, it is your choice and do i care?

lols, Lghain is an obvious evil guy, only blind fools like his fanatic followers believe all his craps, it give a satisfaction to behead his fanatic follower at Lothering and behead Loghain at the landsmeet.  [/quote]
[/quote]

So, trying to decipher this mess....

You're still a self absorbed child.

Bloodthirsty, vengeful, blinded, unable to see the bigger picture. Willing to betray the Warden oath if you don't get to murder a man in front of his daughter?

Saying everybody DESERVES to die because you didn't get your way?

Now THAT sounds actually MORE EVIL to me than anything else.

Loghain is evil? If he is evil, your Warden is a sociopathic monster.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nevermind, why do I get myself into this after all this time is beyond me.

Come on, you enjoy debates centered around the awesomeness that is Loghain and the foolishness that is Cailan.

Admit it. You wouldn't come in to these types of threads if there wasn't still some spark of interest in talking about one of the best characters ever seen in a video game working for one of the worst kings ever seen.

Off-Topic side note: Have you played FFXII KoP? Based on what I know of you, you'd probably enjoy Vayne Solidor.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

They? There's a handful of people in that Landsmeet Chamber.

So it's all about precious YOU. Not the greater good. Not defeating the Blight. Not saving Ferelden/all of Thedas. But you and your petty, vengeful self-importance.

Hundreds of thousands of innocents.... Men, women and children....

Did the children "deserve" it too?

Your Warden sounds more monstrous than the worst images of Loghain his detractors love to paint.

Thank God most Commanders aren't like that.<_<

If that what they want and that what they got, they reap what they sow...

In a matter of speaking, i said this if i am at Alistair place, then i will do the same, i will leave and curse everybody...

What they WANT? Where are you pulling this nonsense from?

Ferelden is actually better of without Wardens like that.

The Wardens' duty is to end the Blight. No matter what. Including personal, sentimental hogwash like that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Admit it. You wouldn't come in to these types of threads if there wasn't still some spark of interest in talking about one of the best characters ever seen in a video game working for one of the worst kings ever seen.

Tis true, I still love Loghain despite everything.

And no I haven't played any jrpg.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Maric has the requisite beard of awesomeness, so he has to be a good king.

Ha, he's an imbecile like the rest of his family. Including Calenhad I might add.

To you pretty much anyone in Ferelden is an imbecile these days, KOP.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Maric has the requisite beard of awesomeness, so he has to be a good king.

Ha, he's an imbecile like the rest of his family. Including Calenhad I might add.

To you pretty much anyone in Ferelden is an imbecile these days, KOP.

No. Eamon isn't. Anora isn't. Uldred wasn't until he screwed up because of Wynne's idiocy. Avernus isn't (). Sergeant Kylon. Master Ignacio. Seneschal Varel, Commander Garavel....etc etc. No Ferelden had decent people.

Kirkwall on the otherhand.  

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Maric has the requisite beard of awesomeness, so he has to be a good king.

Ha, he's an imbecile like the rest of his family. Including Calenhad I might add.

Even if we are to assume that the visit to Kirkwall was to gain an ally, it was stupid. The city is controlled by Meredith and the Chantry, who do you think they would side with?

But was it known, outside of Kirkwall, that Meredith was in full control of the city-state? I doubt it, because then Cassandra would've known that as well.

Hell, even immigrants to Kirkwall didn't know anything about the politics of the city-state, as Hawke shows us -- Hawke's idiocy notwithstanding.

I think Alistair -- and by extension, places outside of Kirkwall -- thought that Hawke as the Champion was the one with the real influence of the city-states politics.

I don't think Kirkwall's real issues were made public knowledge outside of the city, save for the more renowned things -- Hawke fighting the Arishok.

And indeed, Hawke is a Fereldan Champion. Which means that he can influence things in favor of Ferelden. And possibly gain the aid of Starkhaven as well. Alistair can gain at the very least Starkhaven's aid, which is more aid then he originally had.

So it's not that stupid really, when Alistair himself recognizes that Meredith is the threat to the city. And Meredith does die before Orlais invades.

And one would hope Kirkwall gets back to normal.

He hsould have sent an ambassador (not himself) to Nevarra and city-states other than Kirkwall.

Agreed on Nevarra. However, Starkhaven is also very much Chantry-minded, so they're probably out. Unless Sebastian is still around.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 05:36 .