262 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

We always need a competent general, who cares if we have an army if no-one can lead it?

Bodahn also mentions that most people (assuming commoners) are happy that Loghain is not dead.

Loghain is a national symbol and can inspire men to fight. To kill the symbol of Ferelden independence in such a fashion is bound to affect morale. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juin 2012 - 05:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nizaris1 wrote...
3. loghain only control small faction of nobles and small army

Loghain controls the majority of Ferelden and was beating the Bannorn with his army.
There is a reason why Eamon thinks it highly unwise for you to fight Loghain even with his army and all the other armies you have assembled. Loghain at the very least had an army strong enough to give 4 armies pause. 

[Aeowyn]

Nizaris1 wrote...

lols,

1. we have 3 group of army from different faction who pledge loyalty to the grey Warden, they are not Loghain army...

2. Arl Eamon army also not loyal to Loghain, his army is on our back

3. loghain only control small faction of nobles and small army

Loghain is not needed

- Dwarf Noble is a commander, Dwarves under him/her
- Dalish Elves for sure hear Dalish Warden
- Human Noble is from the respected family, Arl eamon will support him/her, non-human allies are in debt with him/her

The Dwarf Noble is an outcast and thus worth nothing in the eyes of Dwarves.
Human Nobles have had their family name smeared by Arl Howe. I truly love when people make random comments without knowing what they're talking about.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

We always need a competent general, who cares if we have an army if no-one can lead it?

Bodahn also mentions that most people (assuming commoners) are happy that Loghain is not dead.

Loghain is a national symbol and can inspire men to fight. To kill the symbol of Ferelden independence in such a fashion is bound to affect morale. 

This is also true. He became less a man and more of an inspiration to Ferelden as to what it means to be a Fereldan, as per his character codex IIRC.

Morale is important to war. I'd argue that it's one of the most important things, if not the most important.

[Mr.House]

The Ferelden army is small? So is that why his army has kept winning all fights in the civil war?

[syllogi]

Persephone wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Behead Loghain, that is the only way to save Ferelden....

A little obsessed with that, aren't ya?

Ferelden does wonderfully well with him alive. Or with him killing the Archdemon.<_<

Actually, if Loghain wins the duel during the Landsmeet, and we assume that bright red GAME OVER screen means he has killed the Warden, no, Ferelden doesn't do wonderfully well with him alive.  Ferelden is overrun by the Blight, other countries will have to kill the Archdemon, and if Loghain still lives beyond the final battle, he's still babbling about Orlesian betrayals while Thedas burns.

Misunderstanding me on purpose now? Really? I was referring to the choice to keep him alive. There, I spelled it out.

I'm looking at the broader picture.  You're giving Loghain more credit than you're willing to give Alistair.  At the time of the duel, Loghain is unreasonable and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.  After he is defeated, he is willing to work with the Wardens, but if he wins the duel, the Archdemon wins.  That's as big of a betrayal of Ferelden as Alistair's hissy fit, in my opinion.

Alistair could be an okay ruler if he has Anora or a Warden guiding him, but he's immature and makes mistakes.  Loghain also is no perfect paragon of leadership, and needs someone to slap sense into him before he can be trusted to make the right decisions.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...
3. loghain only control small faction of nobles and small army

Loghain controls the majority of Ferelden and was beating the Bannorn with his army.
There is a reason why Eamon thinks it highly unwise for you to fight Loghain even with his army and all the other armies you have assembled. Loghain at the very least had an army strong enough to give 4 armies pause. 

Quite right. If you look at when he's retreating from Ostagar, you can actually see in the far distance how many troops he has. And that's just at that time alone. If I could take a screen cap of the moment when Cauthrien orders the soldiers to head out, I would. But I can't.

And we find out that other nobles were aiding him as early as Lothering.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 06:04 .

[Aeowyn]

syllogi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Behead Loghain, that is the only way to save Ferelden....

A little obsessed with that, aren't ya?

Ferelden does wonderfully well with him alive. Or with him killing the Archdemon.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Actually,
if Loghain wins the duel during the Landsmeet, and we assume that
bright red GAME OVER screen means he has killed the Warden, no, Ferelden
doesn't do wonderfully well with him alive.  Ferelden is overrun by the
Blight, other countries will have to kill the Archdemon, and if Loghain
still lives beyond the final battle, he's still babbling about Orlesian
betrayals while Thedas burns.

Misunderstanding me on purpose now? Really? I was referring to the choice to keep him alive. There, I spelled it out.

I'm
looking at the broader picture.  You're giving Loghain more credit than
you're willing to give Alistair.  At the time of the duel, Loghain is
unreasonable and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.  After he is
defeated, he is willing to work with the Wardens, but if he wins the
duel, the Archdemon wins.  That's as big of a betrayal of Ferelden as
Alistair's hissy fit, in my opinion.

Alistair could be an okay
ruler if he has Anora or a Warden guiding him, but he's immature and
makes mistakes.  Loghain also is no perfect paragon of leadership, and
needs someone to slap sense into him before he can be trusted to make
the right decisions.

How is that a betrayal of Ferelden when the Warden accepts the duel and loses fairly? Loghain has no way of knowing that it takes a Grey Warden to kill the Archdemon. He has also not sworn an out for life to protect Thedas against Blights and darkspawn.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 13 juin 2012 - 06:04 .

[Persephone]

syllogi wrote...

I'm looking at the broader picture.  You're giving Loghain more credit than you're willing to give Alistair.  At the time of the duel, Loghain is unreasonable and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.  After he is defeated, he is willing to work with the Wardens, but if he wins the duel, the Archdemon wins.  That's as big of a betrayal of Ferelden as Alistair's hissy fit, in my opinion.

I give Alistair just as much credit.

Loghain cannot be condemned for something he doesn't know. (Why the Wardens are essential) Alistair KNEW this and STILL walked away.

[Mr.House]

If the Wardens you know, told Loghain why the Wardens are needed, then Loghain would have thought about it more. Loghain has no clue that the Warden needs to kill the Archdemon because Duncan said nothing. Duncan was passive the whole dam time. Loghain is going by known knowledge, not secret knowledge the Wardens decide to keep secret for no reason.

[Aeowyn]

Nizaris1 wrote...

The Dwarf Noble is an outcast and thus worth nothing in the eyes of Dwarves.
Human Nobles have had their family name smeared by Arl Howe. I truly love when people make random comments without knowing what they're talking about.

lols

Dwarf noble already claim back his/her name at orzamar quest, bhelen or harrowmont both in his/her debt...even to Dwarf Commoner Warden to say about it

So that means that the Dwarf will lead the Dwarven army? Yeah right. The Dwarf Noble is still a Grey Warden and thus has no titles. You are very naive if you truly believe that the Dwarves will automatically bow down to some outcast dwarf who got her name cleared when Orzammar has issues sorting out their own politics. Even the evening before they head to the final battle there are Dwarfs talking about a family who are stalling on sending their troops. Really, just do your research before you post.

[Aeowyn]

Persephone wrote...

syllogi wrote...

I'm looking at the broader picture.  You're giving Loghain more credit than you're willing to give Alistair.  At the time of the duel, Loghain is unreasonable and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.  After he is defeated, he is willing to work with the Wardens, but if he wins the duel, the Archdemon wins.  That's as big of a betrayal of Ferelden as Alistair's hissy fit, in my opinion.

I give Alistair just as much credit.

Loghain cannot be condemned for something he doesn't know. (Why the Wardens are essential) Alistair KNEW this and STILL walked away.

To be fair, Alistair had no idea why Wardens were needed to kill the Archdemon, but he still took an oath to protect Thedas from Blights and Darkspawn.

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

Alistair KNEW this and STILL walked away.

In Alistair's defense, he only knew a small portion of why they were needed. Enough to stay in Ferelden? Sure I won't contest that. But he only knew that the Wardens kill the Archdemon, not how the Blights are actually ended by doing so and why the Wardens are necessary for the Blights to end, other then their prowess against the Darkspawn.

And again, Arl Eamon says that Alistair -- as a hardened king, married to anora -- is fighting in the coming battle.

He may not be fighting at the Warden's side or as a Warden, but he's fighting as a King. And if Loghain, Riordan, and the Warden all failed to kill the Archdemon he'd probably step up as well.

So he doesn't always walk away from Ferelden.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 06:09 .

[Mr.House]

Alistair betrays Duncans memory, the Wardens and Ferelden when he walks away. Loghain had no choice to do what he did at Ostagar, Alistair takes a selfish choice at the Landsmeet. He put his emotions in front of his duty.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistair KNEW this and STILL walked away.

In Alistair's defense, he only knew a small portion of why they were needed.

Duncan is brilliant.  

[Dave of Canada]

syllogi wrote...


I'm looking at the broader picture.  You're giving Loghain more credit than you're willing to give Alistair.  At the time of the duel, Loghain is unreasonable and unwilling to look at the bigger picture.  After he is defeated, he is willing to work with the Wardens, but if he wins the duel, the Archdemon wins.  That's as big of a betrayal of Ferelden as Alistair's hissy fit, in my opinion.

Loghain is doing everything with the knowledge given to him, the stupidity of the Grey Warden order refusing to tell their "secrets" to monarchs and their generals to prepare for upcoming battle lead to the events of Origins. Loghain fully thinks he's capable of defeating the Blight on his own, as he has no idea about the Warden's necessity in killing the Archdemon.

Thus, when confronting Loghain, of course he's "unreasonable and unwilling", he thinks he has the entire thing under control--which he would have if not for the Grey Warden tidbit.

Alistair on the other hand knows a smaller bit of the Grey Warden's secrets and abandons Ferelden to the Blight, wishing it'll kill us all. Hell, he begins demanding for the throne simply so he may kill Loghain. He's far from leadership material, the only time he's somewhat reasonable is when he's hardened and claims the throne despite Loghain (though his refusal to help the Warden fight is lacking).

Considering what he's doing in the comic, he's only making matters worse.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 juin 2012 - 06:11 .

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
So that means that the Dwarf will lead the Dwarven army? Yeah right. The Dwarf Noble is still a Grey Warden and thus has no titles. You are very naive if you truly believe that the Dwarves will automatically bow down to some outcast dwarf who got her name cleared when Orzammar has issues sorting out their own politics. Even the evening before they head to the final battle there are Dwarfs talking about a family who are stalling on sending their troops. Really, just do your research before you post.

lols

It is DN or DC warden who elect Orzamar king, so orzamar king is in his/her debt. A Paragon who give that power to DN or DC. Every Orzamarians will listen to DN or DC than Loghain...

Orzamar army is under DN/DC Warden, not under Loghain,

Orzammar is bound to its king. Bhelen will not bow to anything you say, trust me. DN or not.

[syllogi]

Aeowyn wrote...

How is that a betrayal of Ferelden when the Warden accepts the duel and loses fairly? Loghain has no way of knowing that it takes a Grey Warden to kill the Archdemon. He has also not sworn an out for life to protect Thedas against Blights and darkspawn.

We're talking about Loghain as a ruler, and at the moment of the Landsmeet, the darkspawn and the Blight are a clear and present danger, while some vague Orlesian threat is not even proven.

Yes, if he betrays his oath to the former king, and then kills the only people who can end the Blight that is currently ravaging Ferelden, he is betraying his country.  Loghain may not know that a Grey Warden *must* slay the Archdemon, but he knows what a Blight is, and he knows that the Grey Wardens have ended every Blight in the past.  What was his plan, exactly, if he killed Alistair, the Warden, and put Riordan back in the dungeon (if he didn't kill him too?)

If he wants to lead (and I'm not even begrudging him the way he takes hold of the throne), he needs to be held responsible for his actions.  He wanted to win at the Landsmeet, and if he had, the country would have been devastated.  How is that not a betrayal of the people he wants to rule?

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistair KNEW this and STILL walked away.

In Alistair's defense, he only knew a small portion of why they were needed.

Duncan is brilliant.  

You know I love you, right? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

syllogi wrote...
We're talking about Loghain as a ruler, and at the moment of the Landsmeet, the darkspawn and the Blight are a clear and present danger, while some vague Orlesian threat is not even proven.

When 4 Legions of Chevaliers camp at the borders when they were told to turn away, it's proof of very possible aggressive itnentions.

But I agree that Loghain was a poor leader, but not for the reasons you mention. Rather because he didn't eliminate Cailan long before, because he didn't kill Eamon and because he lacks political skills to manipulate the bannorn and avoid / alleviate the civil war.

[Persephone]

syllogi wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

How is that a betrayal of Ferelden when the Warden accepts the duel and loses fairly? Loghain has no way of knowing that it takes a Grey Warden to kill the Archdemon. He has also not sworn an out for life to protect Thedas against Blights and darkspawn.

We're talking about Loghain as a ruler,

No, we're actually not talking about that atm.