262 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Alistair KNEW this and STILL walked away.

In Alistair's defense, he only knew a small portion of why they were needed.

Duncan is brilliant.  

In Duncan's defense, I believe it was said that he would tell the junior members why after the battle. Sadly, he died and couldn't.

It might not be the best thing to tell them that stuff immediately after or even before they've Joined. I dunno. I only see Duncan as at fault for failing to inform the heads of state about the necessity of the Wardens.

"So in addition to having only 30 years of life, you may need to kill yourself to stop the Blight."

"**** that ****."

[Aeowyn]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
So that means that the Dwarf will lead the Dwarven army? Yeah right. The Dwarf Noble is still a Grey Warden and thus has no titles. You are very naive if you truly believe that the Dwarves will automatically bow down to some outcast dwarf who got her name cleared when Orzammar has issues sorting out their own politics. Even the evening before they head to the final battle there are Dwarfs talking about a family who are stalling on sending their troops. Really, just do your research before you post.

lols

It is DN or DC warden who elect Orzamar king, so orzamar king is in his/her debt. A Paragon who give that power to DN or DC. Every Orzamarians will listen to DN or DC than Loghain...

Orzamar army is under DN/DC Warden, not under Loghain,

1. Do you always start your posts with "lols"?
2. You have no idea what you're talking about, so I'm through discussing with you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It might not be the best thing to tell them that stuff immediately after or even before they've Joined. I dunno. I only see Duncan as at fault for failing to inform the heads of state about the necessity of the Wardens.

Alistair was a Warden for 6 months. That and he and the Warden were the only ones not at the front in Ostagar, meaning that if anything happened, they were the only wardens left.

For ****'s sake Duncan! How can someone have such an epic beard and then turn out to be an imbecile??

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

though his refusal to help the Warden fight is lacking

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And again, Arl Eamon says that Alistair -- as a hardened king, married to anora -- is fighting in the coming battle.

He may not be fighting at the Warden's side or as a Warden, but he's fighting as a King. And if Loghain, Riordan, and the Warden all failed to kill the Archdemon he'd probably step up as well.

So he doesn't always walk away from Ferelden.

Side note: When Anora is seen wearing armor -- in that scene where she gives a speech with horrible VA -- can we take that to mean she too is fighting? Or is it just ceremonial armor.

Frankly, I don't see Anora as being a warrior. I don't think Loghain said she studied anything resembling military tactics, training, or anything else of the sort related to warfare and fighting.

[syllogi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

syllogi wrote...
We're talking about Loghain as a ruler, and at the moment of the Landsmeet, the darkspawn and the Blight are a clear and present danger, while some vague Orlesian threat is not even proven.

When 4 Legions of Chevaliers camp at the borders when they were told to turn away, it's proof of very possible aggressive itnentions.

But I agree that Loghain was a poor leader, but not for the reasons you mention. Rather because he didn't eliminate Cailan long before, because he didn't kill Eamon and because he lacks political skills to manipulate the bannorn and avoid / alleviate the civil war.

I'm sure that Orlais had *something* planned, even if it just involved having Anora deposed and marrying Cailan to the Empress.   It just wasn't a pressing matter when darkspawn are invading.

Letting Cailan die at Ostagar was a pretty terrible idea, and I agree that if he wanted to be ruthless, having him offed beforehand would have been better for the country.

My main point is that Loghain is just as blinded by emotions as Alistair, just at a different point in the story.  And if everything had gone his way, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed.

[Aeowyn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

though his refusal to help the Warden fight is lacking

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And again, Arl Eamon says that Alistair -- as a hardened king, married to anora -- is fighting in the coming battle.

He may not be fighting at the Warden's side or as a Warden, but he's fighting as a King. And if Loghain, Riordan, and the Warden all failed to kill the Archdemon he'd probably step up as well.

So he doesn't always walk away from Ferelden.

Side note: When Anora is seen wearing armor -- in that scene where she gives a speech with horrible VA -- can we take that to mean she too is fighting? Or is it just ceremonial armor.

Frankly, I don't see Anora as being a warrior. I don't think Loghain said she studied anything resembling military tactics, training, or anything else of the sort related to warfare and fighting.

I think it's only Ceremonial armour and she's there for morale support. I honestly don't think she's received any combat training.

[Costin_Razvan]

What was his plan, exactly, if he killed Alistair, the Warden, and put Riordan back in the dungeon (if he didn't kill him too?)

Defeat the Darkspawn armies on the field? The Archdemon doesn't have an unlimited source of troops and they can be killed in battle. Using the Warden to end the Blight is using a short term solution to a very long term problem.

If Loghain had won the Landsmeet he probably would have crushed the Darkspawn armies. He is a capable general with several armies backing him. The mages and/or Templars still would have supported him since they are Fereldan.

As for the Dalish and Dwarves, they were bound to fight the Blight. There is no mention of them being under the command of the Warden. The only ones who do mention that are the Werewolves.

Of course the Archdemon would have returned, yes and what of it? Tevinter stood it's ground for decades during the First Blight when the Darkspawn were vastly more powerful.

Furthermore there is no certainty that the Archdemon would have stayed in Fereldan after it had been killed once or twice. It does control the Deep Roads meaning it can hit ANY country in Thedas and I dunno about you but if I was facing very stiff resistance in one place I'd probably focus on hitting my enemy elsewhere. To the Archdemon countries means nothing and it's goal is to kill ALL humans regardless of nationality. It choose to strike Fereldan because it considered it weak.

[Mr.House]

They only joined the Warden after the Warden helped them with their personal problems.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alistair was a Warden for 6 months. That and he and the Warden were the only ones not at the front in Ostagar, meaning that if anything happened, they were the only wardens left.

For ****'s sake Duncan! How can someone have such an epic beard and then turn out to be an imbecile??

Oh I know Alistair was a Warden for 6 months. That's why I said immediately after. You have to give them time to settle in.

I suppose the best place for it to have been said would've been "What if the Archdemon shows up" where he would say something along the lines of...

"If it shows up, leave it to us. If we fail, then you two have to kill it. Because the soul of an Archdemon will perish if a Warden kills it as it fights your soul. Ugly yes, but necessary."

I still don't think he should be blamed for it, if his intention was to tell Alistair and the Warden about it after the battle as I believe.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 06:29 .

[Aeowyn]

syllogi wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

syllogi wrote...
We're talking about Loghain as a ruler, and at the moment of the Landsmeet, the darkspawn and the Blight are a clear and present danger, while some vague Orlesian threat is not even proven.

When 4 Legions of Chevaliers camp at the borders when they were told to turn away, it's proof of very possible aggressive itnentions.

But I agree that Loghain was a poor leader, but not for the reasons you mention. Rather because he didn't eliminate Cailan long before, because he didn't kill Eamon and because he lacks political skills to manipulate the bannorn and avoid / alleviate the civil war.

I'm sure that Orlais had *something* planned, even if it just involved having Anora deposed and marrying Cailan to the Empress.   It just wasn't a pressing matter when darkspawn are invading.

Letting Cailan die at Ostagar was a pretty terrible idea, and I agree that if he wanted to be ruthless, having him offed beforehand would have been better for the country.

My main point is that Loghain is just as blinded by emotions as Alistair, just at a different point in the story.  And if everything had gone his way, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed.

He argued against Cailan fighting on the front lines but Cailan decided to do it anyway. It then appeared that the darkspawn horde was larger than they had expected and Cailan was smack in the middle of the battle. What was Loghain supposed to do? Sacrifice the rest of the army in order to maybe (unless he was dead by the time they arrived) save the King? Half an army is better than no army.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain's mistake there was that he did not assassinate Cailan before the battle, a few drops of Darkspawn blood in his wine would have sufficed, to save his entire army.

 
The fact is the Warden army is NOT Loghain army

Even without Loghain, the Warden can order the army him/herself, Loghain is just a thorn in the bush

the landsmeet is actually not significant other than to remove Loghain, the warden can move even without going to landsmeet 

That so? What of the forces of West Hill, Dragon's Peak, Gwaren, Denerim, Amaranthine and all those other soldiers Loghain got together? You do not get them until after the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 juin 2012 - 06:27 .

[Aeowyn]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain's mistake there was that he did not assassinate Cailan before the battle, a few drops of Darkspawn blood in his wine would have sufficed, to save his entire army.

I don't really see how that would have saved the entire army? He made the decision to leave as soon as the beacon was lit. Half the army would still have been in the middle of the battlefield.

[Costin_Razvan]

Aeowyn wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain's mistake there was that he did not assassinate Cailan before the battle, a few drops of Darkspawn blood in his wine would have sufficed, to save his entire army.

I don't really see how that would have saved the entire army? He made the decision to leave as soon as the beacon was lit. Half the army would still have been in the middle of the battlefield.

I said before the battle, as in before the Darkspawn even advanced on Ostagar. I believe he wanted to retreat from Ostagar and Cailan refused to accept that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 juin 2012 - 06:29 .

[TEWR]

Defeat the Darkspawn armies on the field? The Archdemon doesn't have an unlimited source of troops and they can be killed in battle.

But they have constitution that is far more then any human, and during Blights the Archdemon assumes complete control over every Darkspawn at the time.

At least, I think that's the lore on Archdemons. I don't think there was ever a mention of control being affected by distance -- meaning an Archdemon can only control Darkspawn in one country.

Which even though their numbers aren't infinite, there are far more then any human army.

[Costin_Razvan]

Which even though their numbers aren't infinite, there are far more then any human army.

Oghren mentions their numbers himself at Denerim, they outnumber you 3 to 1.

Contrary btw to Riordan's idiotic notion, an army CAN win against those odds. Hell we've seen armies win against even higher odds. The Darkspawn might be tougher then humans but the humans have discipline, formations, cohesion, and better weapons.

Also with potential Golems and Mages, well I wouldn't place my money on the Darkspawn who have crude weapons.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[TEWR]

Loghain's mistake there was that he did not assassinate Cailan before the battle, a few drops of Darkspawn blood in his wine would have sufficed, to save his entire army.

And then Duncan would say he's tainted and needs to become a Warden if he wants to survive. And then Cailan becomes a Warden and gets all happy and excited like a little kid.

And then Cailan wants to charge into battle alone, with the disapproval of... well... everyone. But he does it anyway. And he dies.

Would've made for a nicer battle.

[Costin_Razvan]

If Cailan becomes a Warden he is no longer a king, thus he is removed from the chain of command. Either way it's a solution.

Nizaris1 : Considering the vast majority of your forces in the Battle of Denerim, you know based on the cinematics, are human, I'd say you don't know what the **** you are talking about. Yeah you get to use the Dwarves/Redcliffe soldiers etc. in Denerim but the main battle is taking place outside the city itself. This is mentioned.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 juin 2012 - 06:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Just kill the brat or give him the paralyzing potion and make him sleep for a few months.

[TEWR]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Which even though their numbers aren't infinite, there are far more then any human army.

Oghren mentions their numbers himself at Denerim, they outnumber you 3 to 1.

If those were the odds -- could've just been illustrative, but not indicative of actual numbers -- then fair point.

Contrary btw to Riordan's idiotic notion, an army CAN win against those odds. Hell we've seen armies win against even higher odds. The Darkspawn might be tougher then humans but the humans have discipline, formations, cohesion, and better weapons.

We have. Finland is one of my favorites. I'll try and dig up the "Don't **** With Finland" image I love so much.

However, the Archdemon seems to give them the discipline and formations they lack outside of a Blight, while we see that they have their own smiths that use materials other nations use.

Iron, Grey Iron, and Steel.

It's crude weaponry, but effective nonetheless. And armies need to be fed. The Darkspawn don't need food.

Eventually Loghain would face food shortages, more so with the tainted land everywhere. The Darkspawn would just be all happy about not needing any more food.

Though their weaponry and armor gets even better when they're Awakened.

I actually wish we could get those armor sets the Awakened Darkspawn wear. They're awesome.

[TEWR]

If Cailan becomes a Warden he is no longer a king, thus he is removed from the chain of command. Either way it's a solution.

Somehow I doubt that Cailan would adhere to that rule, being an idiot and all.

But if he did adhere to it, it would indeed be a boon for the nation. And if he did survive the battle, then maybe in 20 or so years he could learn a thing or two about warfare instead of "Ooh a sword!".

I'm being generous with the 20 years thing. That's if he studied diligently.

Although Ostagar still would've been a failure, since they were doomed from the start by way of not taking proper precautions.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 06:41 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Nizaris1: Your argument is irrelevant considering that you do have to get the Fereldan Noble Armies in order to win.

Ethreal Writer: The Darkspawn don't use Steel in DA:O if I recall and at any rate their armor is crusde, the formations non existenent pretty much. What the Archdemon gives them is cohesion. 

Food can be imported and there are always supplies stored away for winter and all.

As for what Cailan would have wanted had he become a Warden, it's ALL irrelevant. He would not be king anymore.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 juin 2012 - 06:43 .