262 réponses à ce sujet

[syllogi]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What was his plan, exactly, if he killed Alistair, the Warden, and put Riordan back in the dungeon (if he didn't kill him too?)

Defeat the Darkspawn armies on the field? The Archdemon doesn't have an unlimited source of troops and they can be killed in battle. Using the Warden to end the Blight is using a short term solution to a very long term problem.

If Loghain had won the Landsmeet he probably would have crushed the Darkspawn armies. He is a capable general with several armies backing him. The mages and/or Templars still would have supported him since they are Fereldan.

As for the Dalish and Dwarves, they were bound to fight the Blight. There is no mention of them being under the command of the Warden. The only ones who do mention that are the Werewolves.

Of course the Archdemon would have returned, yes and what of it? Tevinter stood it's ground for decades during the First Blight when the Darkspawn were vastly more powerful.

Furthermore there is no certainty that the Archdemon would have stayed in Fereldan after it had been killed once or twice. It does control the Deep Roads meaning it can hit ANY country in Thedas and I dunno about you but if I was facing very stiff resistance in one place I'd probably focus on hitting my enemy elsewhere. To the Archdemon countries means nothing and it's goal is to kill ALL humans regardless of nationality. It choose to strike Fereldan because it considered it weak.

Ferelden is considered a backwater country that is still recovering from years of Orlesian occupation.  You can't really compare Tevinter magisters staving off the Blight for decades to Ferelden's situation.  Even if the Archdemon moves on, Darkspawn Chronicles shows that if they win, Ferelden is pretty much ruined for decades to come.  

I didn't see Loghain as taking the threat seriously, not at Ostagar, and not during the Landsmeet.  He even was part of the problem in the Circle of Mages, by supporting Uldred.  Do you really think Abomination!Uldred would come to Denerim to offer support if Loghain called in his favor?  Would the dwarves come, if no new king was named in time?  Loghain would not help with that problem, so it wouldn't happen.  The Dalish would have fought the Blight, but not organized with the other armies, same with the werewolves.

I'm sure Loghain was confident in his ability to defeat the Blight without Grey Wardens, but even Anora took the threat more seriously, and saw that something was really wrong with the way Loghain was acting.  She would have never gone to the Warden at all if she weren't concerned.

[Dave of Canada]

Darkspawn have no siege weapons except for *possibly* Ogres, thus they're immediately disadvantaged in that regard. They may have more numbers but place mages and archers on the walls to eliminate the Ogres as they approach and all you've really got to worry about is superior numbers, which the fortifications and siege weaponry of your own would possibly overwhelm.

The Darkspawn army's biggest threat is constant attacks (especially on farms, villages and such), the disease that festers from their blood and the incapability of being destroyed except by Wardens. Previous blights lasted decades and the world wasn't destroyed, meaning some countries were capable of holding out for years.

Ostagar was a catastrophic failure due to Cailan's stupidity and Ferelden's armies underestimating the Darkspawn, in addition to Ostagar not being as defensible as they hoped--which makes sense considering it's years of neglect.

United under Loghain, Ferelden could've lasted possibly half-a-decade, maybe more. Considering all the Darkspawn really accomplished through a year of marching was destroying a few communities and bannorns while the armies were busy fighting themselves, post-Landsmeet Ferelden would've been prepared to deal with the encroaching Darkspawn.

All they'd really need to defend is Amaranthine and maybe Denerim, as their biggest threat was running out of supplies and they'd not trade with Orlais ever, leaving sea-trade the only viable option as most farmland would be tainted by disease and they'd be unable to grow despite pushing back the Darkspawn.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 juin 2012 - 06:46 .

[TEWR]

Ethreal Writer: The Darkspawn don't use Steel in DA:O if I recall and at any rate their armor is crusde, the formations non existenent pretty much. What the Archdemon gives them is cohesion.

No they do have formations I believe. But my memory's shakey, so unless corroborated on that point I'll concede it for now.

And they use steel. I've picked up a few Darkspawn weapons that were made out of it.

Food can be imported and there are always supplies stored away for winter and all.

Wouldn't that cost money though? Ferelden already had treasury issues due to the Civil War. And this isn't the first time either. Loghain exhausted the treasury nearly to the point of being empty when Maric went missing 5 or so years prior.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Nizaris1: Your argument is irrelevant considering that you do have to get the Fereldan Noble Armies in order to win.

nope, in order to win, we need to chop off Archdemon head and there is not only one way to do it...

Says the person who'll refuse to do that because they didn't get something as useless as revenge.

[syllogi]

Aeowyn wrote...

syllogi wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

syllogi wrote...
We're talking about Loghain as a ruler, and at the moment of the Landsmeet, the darkspawn and the Blight are a clear and present danger, while some vague Orlesian threat is not even proven.

When 4 Legions of Chevaliers camp at the borders when they were told to turn away, it's proof of very possible aggressive itnentions.

But I agree that Loghain was a poor leader, but not for the reasons you mention. Rather because he didn't eliminate Cailan long before, because he didn't kill Eamon and because he lacks political skills to manipulate the bannorn and avoid / alleviate the civil war.

I'm sure that Orlais had *something* planned, even if it just involved having Anora deposed and marrying Cailan to the Empress.   It just wasn't a pressing matter when darkspawn are invading.

Letting Cailan die at Ostagar was a pretty terrible idea, and I agree that if he wanted to be ruthless, having him offed beforehand would have been better for the country.

My main point is that Loghain is just as blinded by emotions as Alistair, just at a different point in the story.  And if everything had gone his way, Ferelden would have been completely destroyed.

He argued against Cailan fighting on the front lines but Cailan decided to do it anyway. It then appeared that the darkspawn horde was larger than they had expected and Cailan was smack in the middle of the battle. What was Loghain supposed to do? Sacrifice the rest of the army in order to maybe (unless he was dead by the time they arrived) save the King? Half an army is better than no army.

If Loghain had retreated and then gone on to formulate a plan to defeat the darkspawn on his own terms, I'd have no problem with this.  Instead, his brilliant idea was to kill or imprison any remaining Grey Wardens in Ferelden (what was the logic behind that again?)

He could have let Cailan know that he would not have his support in the upcoming battle.  That would have freaked Cailan out, but he would have been given a chance, at least, to listen.  Or, as I said, Loghain could have had him killed ahead of time, and formulated a battle plan he liked better than what was planned at Ostagar.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darkspawn have no siege weapons except for *possibly* Ogres, thus they're immediately disadvantaged in that regard.

But they have tunneling capabilities and have shown twice that they use them to their advantage.

I am surprised that they didn't use them more often in fact.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Darkspawn have no siege weapons except for *possibly* Ogres

They have ballista.

I imagine they make their own crude bolts for it as well. How effective they'd be, I dunno.

[KnightofPhoenix]

syllogi wrote...
 Instead, his brilliant idea was to kill or imprison any remaining Grey Wardens in Ferelden (what was the logic behind that again?)

Because he feared the Wardens were collaborating with Orlais, which is not farfetched. Historically, they have assisted in Orlesian imperial expansion, they have Wardens in the Imperial Court and Orlais in the country that hosts the most Wardens and the one that gives them the most stipends.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[Persephone]

syllogi wrote...

He could have let Cailan know that he would not have his support in the upcoming battle.  That would have freaked Cailan out, but he would have been given a chance, at least, to listen.  Or, as I said, Loghain could have had him killed ahead of time, and formulated a battle plan he liked better than what was planned at Ostagar.

Cailan would not have freaked out. He'd have played the "Remember who's king!" nonsense again. And thus doomed whole army.

[Costin_Razvan]

Instead, his brilliant idea was to kill or imprison any remaining Grey Wardens in Ferelden (what was the logic behind that again?)

Because he believe the Grey Wardens were Orlesian Agents? Considering that they showed up with four legions at their backs on the border, and the past events in the Calling I can hardly blame him.

You'd have to be suicidal to allow the Chevaliers in Fereldan considering their past.

Another reason is that he wanted to place the blame of the defeat at Ostagar on the Grey Wardens, that's why he put a bounty on their heads.

He could have let Cailan know that he would not have his support in the upcoming battle. That would have freaked Cailan out, but he would have been given a chance, at least, to listen. Or, as I said, Loghain could have had him killed ahead of time, and formulated a battle plan he liked better than what was planned at Ostagar.

And in that you have Loghain's biggest mistake, as Gaider himself mentioned Loghain didn't notice to let Cailan die until he saw the beacon. His flaw was that he actually cared for Cailan...too much if you ask me.

 
I am surprised that they didn't use them more often in fact.  

You're surprised Bioware doesn't understand **** about warfare?

 
Cailan would not have freaked out. He'd have played the "Remember who's king!" nonsense again. And thus doomed whole army. 

Or called him a traitor and ordered his head chopped off.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 juin 2012 - 06:57 .

[TEWR]

Another reason is that he wanted to place the blame of the defeat at Ostagar on the Grey Wardens, that's why he put a bounty on their heads.

Reflecting on this, I can't believe some of Ferelden's people are so stupid to believe such a thing. Common sense applies here.

The Wardens killing Cailan and severing the army's strength is effectively them helping the Darkspawn, which they are renowned to not do.

Of course, I imagine since it was Loghain that said it, common sense failed to come into play and hero worship did.

Thankfully, I can at least convince Ser Landry of how idiotic the notion is. So at least one person got educated and hopefully he'd educate others.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[Persephone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Another reason is that he wanted to place the blame of the defeat at Ostagar on the Grey Wardens, that's why he put a bounty on their heads.

Reflecting on this, I can't believe people are so stupid to believe such a thing. Common sense applies here.

The Wardens killing Cailan and severing the army's strength is effectively them helping the Darkspawn, which they are renowned to not do.

Of course, I imagine since it was Loghain that said it, common sense failed to come into play and hero worship did.

Except the Wardens HAVE allied with the darkspawn before. Warden Commander Genevieve.....

[Dave of Canada]

syllogi wrote...

Ferelden is considered a backwater country that is still recovering from years of Orlesian occupation.  You can't really compare Tevinter magisters staving off the Blight for decades to Ferelden's situation.

The first blight was far stronger than the fifth, Tevinter was just as much in disarray due to their religion being shattered and morale being ridiculously low with everyone scattering through the wind and they still lasted a long time.

Even if the Archdemon moves on, Darkspawn Chronicles shows that if they win, Ferelden is pretty much ruined for decades to come. 

Alistair in charge of leading Ferelden's armies.

Yep.

I didn't see Loghain as taking the threat seriously, not at Ostagar, and not during the Landsmeet.

True, he didn't take it seriously at Ostagar, though he didn't take it seriously at the Landsmeet? How? Trying to unite Ferelden under one banner and stop the civil war preventing people from working against the Blight?

The Bannorn were the minority and were being defeated, Loghain had "won" at that point and he'd be able to lead the defense once he shut Eamon and the Warden up.

He even was part of the problem in the Circle of Mages, by supporting Uldred.  Do you really think Abomination!Uldred would come to Denerim to offer support if Loghain called in his favor?

Abomination Uldred wasn't part of the bargain with Loghain, Loghain had promised freedom for the mages and supported Uldred to achieve it. Had Uldred successfully usurped control of the Circle, mages wouldn't have been shackled by the Templar and have been allowed to do how they pleased.

An army of blood mages, unrestrained mages and far more would've been useful in Ferelden's defense. Abomination Uldred wasn't part of the plan and only occured when Uldred "slipped" when trying to forcefully take the Circle.

Would the dwarves come, if no new king was named in time?  Loghain would not help with that problem, so it wouldn't happen.

Loghain was approaching the dwarves, his men outside the gates prove that. He was unable to do anything to assist them (or force them) because he didn't have the treaty which allowed his men past the front gates.

I'm sure Loghain was confident in his ability to defeat the Blight without Grey Wardens, but even Anora took the threat more seriously, and saw that something was really wrong with the way Loghain was acting.  She would have never gone to the Warden at all if she weren't concerned.

Anora wasn't taking the threat seriously, she was using the Warden to achieve the throne without any opposition. The Blight was another means to her, just like Loghain.

[Costin_Razvan]

It ties into the whole "Grey Wardens are agents of Orlais" argument since killing Cailan and sowing chaos in Fereldan is in Orlais's interest.

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...

Except the Wardens HAVE allied with the darkspawn before. Warden Commander Genevieve.....

That was an extraordinary case though, with an Awakened Darkspawn and not a horde of mindless ones.

But I haven't read The Calling, so I'm not sure what happened in there specifically or if Loghain knew about it all.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It ties into the whole "Grey Wardens are agents of Orlais" argument since killing Cailan and sowing chaos in Fereldan is in Orlais's interest.

Okay, that makes sense.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Another reason is that he wanted to place the blame of the defeat at Ostagar on the Grey Wardens, that's why he put a bounty on their heads.

Reflecting on this, I can't believe some of Ferelden's people are so stupid to believe such a thing. Common sense applies here.

The Wardens killing Cailan and severing the army's strength is effectively them helping the Darkspawn, which they are renowned to not do.

Of course, I imagine since it was Loghain that said it, common sense failed to come into play and hero worship did.

Thankfully, I can at least convince Ser Landry of how idiotic the notion is. So at least one person got educated and hopefully he'd educate others.

It might be because that's the only answer Loghain could come up with, and nobody else could come up with a better one either.

The Wardens were trusted to light a beacon that signaled Loghain to charge at the right moment, they didn't light it, battle lost. If you know for a fact that the darkspawn stopped them, that's one thing. Loghain doesn't seem to know that. (Nizaris1 is going to mention her theory that Loghain knew about the darkspawn's plans and encouraged them. I've already explained why that's not the case. Page 2, I think. At any rate, whether Loghain knew or not is irrelvant to the current topic, that the commoners bought Loghain's version of the defeat story.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[Dave of Canada]

 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But they have tunneling capabilities and have shown twice that they use them to their advantage. 

I am surprised that they didn't use them more often in fact. 

Maybe I'm misremebering but both cases required them from attacking from already created tunnels. Amaranthine's smuggler tunnels allowed open access into the center of the city and  Ostagar's tunnels were wide open, showing they're good at taking open advantages when presented.

I don't think they've actually dug tunnels themselves to create passages into the middle of cities, otherwise Orzammar would've suffered possibly far more than it has over the years.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

They have ballista.

I imagine they make their own crude bolts for it as well. How effective they'd be, I dunno.

They've shown capability of using ballista but they're not ones to craft it themselves, it seems mostly human / dwarven design and used when positioned in a strategically sound location. I doubt their armies march with ballista.

Nizaris1 wrote...

i failed to see how the players can idolize Loghain...if failed in duel against him, it is a game over....

 

Because the game is about your Warden, killing him/her ends the game because there's no other way to progress. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 juin 2012 - 07:11 .

[TEWR]

Alistair in charge of leading Ferelden's armies.

Yep.

Well, he actually did pretty well for himself considering. He failed sure, but it was far more then I'm willing to bet some people would've given him credit for.

He's not a horrible commander of forces really. That's Cailan. He's not exceptional either, but he can become a suitable leader of an army given time.

But always keep Loghain as the main commander. Alistair's the backup plan.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Well, he actually did pretty well for himself considering. He failed sure, but it was far more then I'm willing to bet some people would've given him credit for.

He's not a horrible commander of forces really. That's Cailan. He's not exceptional either, but he can become a suitable leader of an army given time.

Reading the codex entries does paint him in a very negative picture, however.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But they have tunneling capabilities and have shown twice that they use them to their advantage. 

I am surprised that they didn't use them more often in fact. 

Maybe I'm misremebering but both cases required them from attacking from already created tunnels. Amaranthine's smuggler tunnels allowed open access into the center of the city and  Ostagar's tunnels were wide open, showing they're good at taking open advantages when presented.

I don't think they've actually dug tunnels themselves to create passages into the middle of cities, otherwise Orzammar would've suffered possibly far more than it has over the years.

I seem to remember a codex entry where a group of miners blew themselves up to stop the darkspawn from breaking into a newly carved tunnel behind the patrols. Not sure whether or not that actually happened, the codex authors are said to show symptoms of lyrium poisoning.

[TEWR]

I don't think they've actually dug tunnels themselves to create passages into the middle of cities, otherwise Orzammar would've suffered possibly far more than it has over the years.

Two words: Crosscut Drifters.

If I'm remembering that codex right.

Also much of the tunnels we explore seem to be Darkspawn dug in the Deep Roads, leading into the old Thaigs. And they have to dig for centuries to find the Old Gods, which means that they are capable of building their own tunnels.

I doubt their armies march with ballista.

True, we never actually see them being used save for in the Deep Roads and Ostagar, where they may have been stationed.