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Alistair and Cailan not fit to be King


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#176
TEWR

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Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Well, he actually did pretty well for himself considering. He failed sure, but it was far more then I'm willing to bet some people would've given him credit for.

He's not a horrible commander of forces really. That's Cailan. He's not exceptional either, but he can become a suitable leader of an army given time.


Reading the codex entries does paint him in a very negative picture, however.


Which ones? I don't have DC and my comp won't load the wiki properly.



I don't think they've actually dug tunnels themselves to create passages into the middle of cities, otherwise Orzammar would've suffered possibly far more than it has over the years.


Two words: Crosscut Drifters.

If I'm remembering that codex right.

Also much of the tunnels we explore seem to be Darkspawn dug in the Deep Roads, leading into the old Thaigs. And they have to dig for centuries to find the Old Gods, which means that they are capable of building their own tunnels.


I doubt their armies march with ballista.


True, we never actually see them being used save for in the Deep Roads and Ostagar, where they were stationed (for Ostagar, anyway. Deep Roads ones may have been moved to where we see them by the Darkspawn).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 07:50 .


#177
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Because the game is about your Warden, killing him/her ends the game because there's no other way to progress.


Now you say it, so Loghain is not significat, but the Warden is...the Warden is the Messiah, not Loghain...just hear DA:O song...

If the Warden die then Ferelden fall into the Blight

#178
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Nizaris1 wrote...

Because the game is about your Warden, killing him/her ends the game because there's no other way to progress.


Now you say it, so Loghain is not significat, but the Warden is...the Warden is the Messiah, not Loghain...just hear DA:O song...

If the Warden die then Ferelden fall into the Blight


And Loghain tries to kill the Warden because he's perfectly aware of this, and wants everyone in Ferelden to die.

#179
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If the game is about Loghain and he is good guy...then Loghain will show up at chargen and we play as Loghain...lols

All trailer will show Loghain fighting darkspawns and dragons...the game will be named Loghain : Hero of Ferelden...

#180
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Nizaris1 wrote...

If the game is about Loghain and he is good guy...then Loghain will show up at chargen and we play as Loghain...lols

All trailer will show Loghain fighting darkspawns and dragons...the game will be named Loghain : Hero of Ferelden...


Which doesn't really answer the point that he had legitimate reasons to do what he did, based on the (limited) information he had available.

#181
Mr.House

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No, Loghain is an anti-villain. Please get your terms right Nizaris.

#182
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Well...we can create Dwarf Loghain, Elf Loghain, Mage Loghain or Noble Loghain...

The quest will be

1. Argue with Cailan
2. retreat when grey Warden light the beacon
3. Kill all remaining Grey Warden
4. Hire Assassins to hunt down Grey Warden
5. Kill Grey Warden at Landsmeet

edit ; Side Quests

1. poison Arl Eamon
2. create a Cvil War
3. sell slaves
4. promise to uldred First Enchanter position

Modifié par Nizaris1, 13 juin 2012 - 07:36 .


#183
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Nizaris1 wrote...

Well...we can create Dwarf Loghain, Elf Loghain, Mage Loghain or Noble Loghain...

The quest will be

1. Argue with Cailan
2. retreat when grey Warden light the beacon
3. Kill all remaining Grey Warden
4. Hire Assassins to hunt down Grey Warden
5. Kill Grey Warden at Landsmeet


Sarcasm aside, that would be a pretty cool campaign.

Edit: Do I get to import my Warden?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 juin 2012 - 07:37 .


#184
Persephone

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Mr.House wrote...

No, Loghain is an anti-villain. Please get your terms right Nizaris.


He is an antagonist, not a villain. His sacrifice and redemption at the end qualify him for the label "anti-hero".

Much more interesting that entitled "messiahs".:devil:

#185
Persephone

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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Well...we can create Dwarf Loghain, Elf Loghain, Mage Loghain or Noble Loghain...

The quest will be

1. Argue with Cailan
2. retreat when grey Warden light the beacon
3. Kill all remaining Grey Warden
4. Hire Assassins to hunt down Grey Warden
5. Kill Grey Warden at Landsmeet


Sarcasm aside, that would be a pretty cool campaign.


I'd buy THAT expansion!:o

#186
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Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Sarcasm aside, that would be a pretty cool campaign

Edit: Do I get to import my Warden?.


They should make a DLC....

edit ; SURE...:lol:

Modifié par Nizaris1, 13 juin 2012 - 07:43 .


#187
Mr.House

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I would love to play as Loghain during the civil war.Or durinf the war with Orlais.

Modifié par Mr.House, 13 juin 2012 - 07:41 .


#188
RedArmyShogun

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A hardend Alistar makes a great king if coupled with Anora actully.

#189
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Confess-A-Bear wrote...

A hardend Alistar makes a great king if coupled with Anora actully.


Wait, that's what we're supposed to be talking about, isn't it?

Wow, look at how off-topic the rest of you posters have gotten.

#190
TEWR

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Loghain's more important than bratty Cailan. Image IPB

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 08:05 .


#191
ejoslin

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.


If Alistair's made into a King and Loghain is alive, Arl Eamon still talks about Alistair wishing to fight. He does so as a King though, not as a Grey Warden.

He left the Warden's company if he was made a King, but he doesn't shirk his duties to Ferelden.

Not that you actually see him fighting, but you're told that he wishes to and that he's going to.


Oh, are you talking about the bug in Eamon's dialog where he talks about Alistair insists on going, even if Alistair has already made it clear that he is not?  

#192
TEWR

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ejoslin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.


If Alistair's made into a King and Loghain is alive, Arl Eamon still talks about Alistair wishing to fight. He does so as a King though, not as a Grey Warden.

He left the Warden's company if he was made a King, but he doesn't shirk his duties to Ferelden.

Not that you actually see him fighting, but you're told that he wishes to and that he's going to.


Oh, are you talking about the bug in Eamon's dialog where he talks about Alistair insists on going, even if Alistair has already made it clear that he is not?  


That's a bug? Huh, I always took it as just canon that he'd fight anyway, even if not in the Warden's party but he's king.

Ah well, it may not be officially canon, but it's personally canon for me when I play DAO.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 08:53 .


#193
ejoslin

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He leave the group if we recruit Loghain? I would do the same if i am at his place. Yes, i will curse everybody then leave because of what? Because i have honor. And i don't care everybody die from the Blight because they deserve it.


If Alistair's made into a King and Loghain is alive, Arl Eamon still talks about Alistair wishing to fight. He does so as a King though, not as a Grey Warden.

He left the Warden's company if he was made a King, but he doesn't shirk his duties to Ferelden.

Not that you actually see him fighting, but you're told that he wishes to and that he's going to.


Oh, are you talking about the bug in Eamon's dialog where he talks about Alistair insists on going, even if Alistair has already made it clear that he is not?  


That's a bug? Huh, I always took it as just canon that he'd fight anyway, even if not in the Warden's party but he's king.

Ah well, it may not be canon, but it's canon for me when I play DAO.


Yeh, here's the dialog.

Warden: Shouldn't Alistair be staying here?

Eamon: He insists on going. How can I say no? 
(said with a sigh of resignation -- there's nothing he can do, and he's worried about it) 

Eamon: I am... uneasy with the danger he puts himself in by accompanying you. I ask myself if he does not conspire to leave the throne to Anora after all. 

The dialog assumes that Alistair will be fighting with the Warden.  [edit] 
Since Alistair actually is NOT accompanying the warden, the dialog option is inappropriate [end edit]. 

However, head canon is fine -- Alistair never says he won't be fighting.  You only know that Eamon departed for Redcliff and Alistair was still sulking.  However, he survives the onslaught of Denerim, so it's more likely than not that he fights.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 juin 2012 - 09:33 .


#194
Aeowyn

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^That explains things. In my most recent pt I made him marry Anora and spared Loghain. When I received that dialogue I searched for him in Arl Eamon's Estate hehe.

#195
Chashan

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Chasham wrote...

The thing concerning this is, how common a type of tactic is tunneling supposed to be in Thedas?


For Darkspawn, they're renowned for it. And they didn't need to do much tunneling to access the lower chambers. They knew where to dig and it immediately led to the lower chambers.

So taking steps to prevent the Darkspawn from tunneling under and into the Tower -- or even just keeping them at bay temporarily -- were needed.


To get back on the bolded part:


Dave of Canada wrote...

Loghain is doing everything with the knowledge given to him, the stupidity of the Grey Warden order refusing to tell their "secrets" to monarchs and their generals to prepare for upcoming battle lead to the events of Origins. Loghain fully thinks he's capable of defeating the Blight on his own, as he has no idea about the Warden's necessity in killing the Archdemon.

[...]



As you said, Darkspawn are "renowned" for being vomited out of the ground. Namely the Dark Roads, which are of Dwarven make.
Considering that to people outside of the Grey Wardens Darkspawn are pretty much a legend, I would not be surprised that tales of Darkspawn ravaging through the earth at will are likely treated as such by most people: legends, not solid fact. Also, the battle-accounts we know of that describe surface battles don't mention any such tactics on the Darkspawn part.

And even considering insider knowledge of the Wardens, the whole situation is somewhat odd: if they are such an elitist, far-sighted order, why did the Ferelden-branch, or rather Mr Duncan, not press the issue that the lower chambers are a back-door? Why not confer directly with Loghain, the military brains of the army, instead of that foolish toad Cailan? Pointing out their uptight idiotic need for secrecy, as was mentioned by Dave, can be seen as something not exactly promoting trust in them on Mr Mac Tir's part.

Considering this, I do wonder whether Duncan or the whole Ferelden-section of that elitist order is a bunch of bumbling fools, or whether knowledge of concrete Darkspawn tricks such as offensive tunneling in a largely open-field battle are something even they, the supposed vanguard against Blights, have forgotten during the centuries.

Because the thing there is, the Dark Roads are not a Darkspawn invention, they are merely "hijacked" and occupied by the Darkspawn, of whom it is mentioned that they are not exactly the most efficient diggers, needing centuries to unearth their next dragon master, making practical usage in battle on their part even less likely...

#196
TEWR

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Considering that to people outside of the Grey Wardens Darkspawn are pretty much a legend, I would not be surprised that tales of Darkspawn ravaging through the earth at will are likely treated as such by most people: legends, not solid fact. Also, the battle-accounts we know of that describe surface battles don't mention any such tactics on the Darkspawn part.


Crosscut drifters.

They saw that the Darkspawn were working their way towards a highway expansion, digging away at the caverns connecting them.

The Crosscut Drifters happened to come across this and planted explosives that made the cavern collapse.

Additionally, one of the Facebook games ended with Darkspawn digging tunnels for some reason. I believe the Facebook DA games are considered canon.

And any Thedosian that ever believes Darkspawn are a legend should check their facts and consult with the Dwarves. It's foolish to believe such a thing.

And we do know they dig tunnels in search of the Darkspawn. It may take them a while to find them, but that's not indicative of them being bad at digging.




of whom it is mentioned that they are not exactly the most efficient diggers, needing centuries to unearth their next dragon master


That doesn't mean they're lousy diggers. They don't exactly know where to dig to find the Old Gods, and thus go more on instinct. That it takes them centuries doesn't mean they're bad at digging tunnels.

If all you had to go off of was a song that you're hearing in your head and not because it's actually being sung out loud, then you're going to have a tough time finding one of the sources for it.

We don't even know how deep within the earth the Old Gods are. They could be miles and miles beneath the deep roads.



And even considering insider knowledge of the Wardens, the whole situation is somewhat odd: if they are such an elitist, far-sighted order, why did the Ferelden-branch, or rather Mr Duncan, not press the issue that the lower chambers are a back-door?


I would say the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence here.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. He obviously didn't do it at the war council, but then again do you think Loghain would trust the Wardens -- who he pretty much makes known he doesn't trust during Ostagar -- with information that he (Loghain) just found out about a fortress?

I blame Loghain more then the Wardens for why the lower chambers weren't rendered unusable as should've been done, because he was the one devising the strategy.



Why not confer directly with Loghain, the military brains of the army, instead of that foolish toad Cailan?


Again, Loghain doesn't exactly trust the Wardens. From what I can tell, it has to do with what happened in The Calling.

Pointing out their uptight idiotic need for secrecy, as was mentioned by Dave, can be seen as something not exactly promoting trust in them on Mr Mac Tir's part.


Which I agree with. I said earlier that they do need to inform the heads of state about why they're needed and how they know it's a Blight.

But I don't completely blame the Wardens for that, because common sense would say that the Wardens know what they're talking about -- based on events that happen in-game with Duncan -- as well as the fact that the issue should've been pressed by the soldiers and Loghain just as much as Duncan should've done the pressing.

That said, I once again must say that Loghain wasn't really trusting of the Wardens to begin with, and from what I can tell it's due to what happened long before Ostagar.


Because the thing there is, the Dark Roads are not a Darkspawn invention, they are merely "hijacked" and occupied by the Darkspawn, of whom it is mentioned that they are not exactly the most efficient diggers, needing centuries to unearth their next dragon master, making practical usage in battle on their part even less likely...


Again, my point about the Crosscut Drifters.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 09:56 .


#197
Jedimaster88

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]

We have. Finland is one of my favorites. I'll try and dig up the "Don't **** With Finland" image I love so much.



[/quote]

You just put a big smile on my face :). I AM FROM FINLAND. Gotta admit Im a bit suprised to see my home mentioned in any way in these forums, but Im suprised in a good way.

Thanks!!

#198
TEWR

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Ah man, I ended up forgetting to search for the image.

But here it is, for everyone's viewing pleasure.

Image IPB

Greater numbers don't always = victory.




You just put a big smile on my face Image IPB


That's what I'm here for! Finland's a badass country. Great musicians too. Image IPB

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 juin 2012 - 11:07 .


#199
Chashan

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Considering that to people outside of the Grey Wardens Darkspawn are pretty much a legend, I would not be surprised that tales of Darkspawn ravaging through the earth at will are likely treated as such by most people: legends, not solid fact. Also, the battle-accounts we know of that describe surface battles don't mention any such tactics on the Darkspawn part.


Crosscut drifters.

They saw that the Darkspawn were working their way towards a highway expansion, digging away at the caverns connecting them.

The Crosscut Drifters happened to come across this and planted explosives that made the cavern collapse.

Additionally, one of the Facebook games ended with Darkspawn digging tunnels for some reason. I believe the Facebook DA games are considered canon.

And any Thedosian that ever believes Darkspawn are a legend should check their facts and consult with the Dwarves. It's foolish to believe such a thing.

And we do know they dig tunnels in search of the Darkspawn the Dragon Gods, you mean?. It may take them a while to find them, but that's not indicative of them being bad at digging.


I was specifically referring to the concrete, practical usage of tunneling in field battles on the surface by Darkspawn, not their adding tunnels of their own to the expansive Deep Roads. And then those "drifters" you mentioned were Dwarves who might be well aware of this, yet I doubt most of the rest of Ferelden would be.

What I meant to imply by referring to Darkspawn being canonized in legend was not the denial of their existence, but rather that most people would not believe every detail therein to be accurate, including a possible reference to Darkspawn bursting from the very ground at will. The briefing on Darkspawn-categories in the army camp of Ostagar at the beginning is frankly quite worrying in that regard, as apparently the rank-and-file seem to be fed next to no information, and even the sergeant briefing his troops there admits their knowledge on their nightmarish enemy is limited.

That doesn't mean they're lousy diggers. They don't exactly know where to dig to find the Old Gods, and thus go more on instinct. That it takes them centuries doesn't mean they're bad at digging tunnels.

If all you had to go off of was a song that you're hearing in your head and not because it's actually being sung out loud, then you're going to have a tough time finding one of the sources for it.

We don't even know how deep within the earth the Old Gods are. They could be miles and miles beneath the deep roads.

A possibility, granted. The thing I wanted to point out, though, was that for deploying their forces, Darkspawn can largely rely on the Deep Roads network thanks to the Dwarven ingenuity that made that work possible in the first place. That the Dragon Gods would be willing to wait for centuries on their mostly brutish servants to unearth them rather speaks of the patience of these than the expertise of Darkspawn in a field dominated by the Dwarves. I doubt Darkspawn even come close there.

[...]
But I don't completely blame the Wardens for that, because common sense would say that the Wardens know what they're talking about -- based on events that happen in-game with Duncan -- as well as the fact that the issue should've been pressed by the soldiers and Loghain just as much as Duncan should've done the pressing.

That said, I once again must say that Loghain wasn't really trusting of the Wardens to begin with, and from what I can tell it's due to what happened long before Ostagar. 


Distrust is not exactly a thing that is limited to the Loghain-Cailan-Duncan triangle in the force gathered at Ostagar. There is the bickering between Chantry and Circle as well, especially the moronic objection to simply lighting the flame with enchantment :wizard:
You mentioned earlier that Loghain should have assembled Templar and the entire might of the Circle as well at Ostagar. Concerning that, I would like to again point out that very probably Loghain thought the whole stand at Ostagar to be a bad idea to begin with. He might not have been alone in this, thus explaining the Chantry only sending in a bare minimum of their specialists.

And given the fact that the battle ended in bloody disaster even without the Archdemon, the one decisive Achilles-heel of the Horde showing up, I think throwing more bodies at it would have merely spelled doom for any efforts to rally a effective force within Ferelden's borders alone afterwards. Given the willingness of Warden personnel to let Ferelden be overrun to merely buy time in that case as I've seen mentioned here...

Modifié par Chashan, 14 juin 2012 - 10:59 .


#200
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tisoy13 wrote...

he's such a foolish man he talks too much considering he's a man


lolwut?