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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Why Loghain stationed men at Tower of Ishal and don't give anyone to enter it before the battle?

It is not like he's doing anything important there, the guard just told us they found lower chamber, that's all the excuse to make it a restricted area?

Why Loghain don't mention anything about the "lower chamber" to Cailan?

Why Loghain don't interrupt Revered Mother who making a noise when Uldred suggesting the Tower is insignificant because the mages can give signal using magic?

Loghain know about the underground tunnel in the tower, there all the darkspawn come in. The darkspawn already infested the tower when we come in.

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

This is the word of David Gaider on the subject of Loghain's "betrayal". He isn't sure whether or not it can be taken as "true," but he's the lead writer. He's involved in planning the major stuff. I'd argue he's a pretty reliable source, and if relevant, his musings are likely to reflect in subsequent games/DLCs. (Which are "true" in this context, no way around it, no matter how much one might hate them.)

He also comes right out and says that while Loghain was considering blocking the beacon from being lit, his plan did not involve the darkspawn. (He does not come right out and say that only an idiot would try to control them, but I guess I will.) Some of the stuff he gets wishy-washy on, probably to leave room for what you're doing (which I suppose can be taken as approval.) That said, this is one of the points he seems definite on.

Edit: No, I didn't remember the above bit, and no, I agree it doesn't look good. Still, he was arguably justified. (See thread title.) At any rate, neither he nor Uldred (who was mentioned as having such plans too, probably as an ulterior motive for his offer) were able to carry out their plans. They made them, yes, and there's a strong case that's treason. Does somebody who carries a gun just in case get tried for 1st degree murder if someone else shoots the possible victim? The fact that he didn't actually get to do it is a strong mitigating factor.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 juin 2012 - 04:28 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

One question...

Why Loghain WAIT for the signal to retreat?

He can retreat BEFORE the signal...

You should read it. Not because I mind explaining this, but because as a general rule, you should read everything.

Speaking of explanations, he hadn't truly decided until he looked over and saw the beacon, then looked at the field to get a quick idea of how good an idea charging is. (And yes, this is one of the ones Gaider is deliberately wishy-washy on.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I have rwead them, David Gaider don't give any solid answer, that would be a spoiler, as the writer of a game where the player make own conclusion, he will not not give a direct answer

by the way...

PC : When do we light the beacon?
Duncan : We will signal you when the time come

in other dialogue path Duncan said Alistair know where the place to lit it...meaning Alistair ALREADY BE IN THE TOWER before for some reason...

There is NO signal from Duncan or Grey Wardens, we just light the beacon after killing the Orge

Now the bit regarding Duncan's signal is easy. You don't need to look anywhere for this answer, Alistair comes right out and says they've definitely missed it, and that the two are lighting the signal anyway hoping for the best. If you wanted a reasonable reason that a character who grew up in saint-devoid Thedas could forgive Loghain for deserting without any meta-game knowledge, this is it. (This isn't forgiving him for the other stuff, which is still up to the player, and his other crimes arguably justify offing him. I argue not, but hey.)

Edit: Oh, and the bit where Alistair's been in the tower before... I don't remember that. Played that scene 8 times, so if Duncan did say that, I'd probably know. I think I remember Duncan saying Alistair would know what the signal to light the beacon is. As for knowing what the beacon you're supposed to be lighting is... top floor, big bunch of wood, only fireplace/chimney in the room. Yep.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 juin 2012 - 05:08 .

[Klidi]

This is the word of David Gaider on the subject of Loghain's "betrayal". He isn't sure whether or not it can be taken as "true," but he's the lead writer. He's involved in planning the major stuff. I'd argue he's a pretty reliable source, and if relevant, his musings are likely to reflect in subsequent games/DLCs. (Which are "true" in this context, no way around it, no matter how much one might hate them.)

He is the lead writer, yes. And I will respect every single word that he wrote... IN THE GAME. I'm sorry, I have absolutely no interest in what remained 'in his mind'. That is just his HEADCANON. What matters is what is in the final text (in this case game) available to the reader. And I disagree, that 'as a general rule', the reader must search for 2 years old posts to read someone else's headcanon and then take it as a word of god.

I've read it, yes. It was interesting to read what was in Mr Gaider's mind. But as it's different to what is in the text, and as it only creates more inconsistencies and plotholes, I don't accept it as canon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Klidi wrote...

He is the lead writer, yes. And I will respect every single word that he wrote... IN THE GAME. I'm sorry, I have absolutely no interest in what remained 'in his mind'. That is just his HEADCANON. What matters is what is in the final text (in this case game) available to the reader. And I disagree, that 'as a general rule', the reader must search for 2 years old posts to read someone else's headcanon and then take it as a word of god.

That's not what I said. What I said was that as a general rule, one should read everything. (I now realize that's a stupid general rule, what with some really lame books out there on the shelves, so let's just go with "everything written by a sane, competent professional, with professional less important than those first two.")

And since this is what the lead writer has in his head regarding the characters in the game he put together, I'd argue it's a lot more relevant than you're trying to make it.

I've read it, yes. It was interesting to read what was in Mr Gaider's mind. But as it's different to what is in the text, and as it only creates more inconsistencies and plotholes, I don't accept it as canon.

And yet Loghain's actions make a lot more sense in this context. It's either this, or accept that drinking the darkspawn cocktail makes him suddenly not an insane murderous backstabbing... I think I remember reading that this site has filters to change this word to "male without father". (He's still Loghain of course, but if you've ever spared him, the personality difference between Loghain the boss of the Landsmeet arc and Loghain the repentant Warden is huge.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Whatever...

Loghain is still the bad guy in the game

There's another Word Of God post saying that Loghain was always meant to be someone you could justifiably off at the Landsmeet. On the other hand, I don't actually believe in capital punishment (though I seem to wind up playing Wardens that do), and there is another option.

On the other hand, you'll note I've never made any posts defending the "slavery" thing. The assassins, letting Cailan self-terminate, I'll forgive him for. Selling elves... no.

Edit: And no, the Warden doesn't actually have to forgive him in order to work with him. Under ordinary circumstances, yes they probably would, but this is a freakin' Blight.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 juin 2012 - 12:51 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

If want to talk about role-playing....

It depends on the character i play, if play a character who don't give an ass about Ferelden politic, Grey Warden and everything, so spare Loghain is okay, just to ****** off Alistair...

If i play a character who is sensitive to everything, who seek justice and do everything in the name of justice, so i will behead Loghain

If i play character who don't want to take part in all the BS at landsmeet, just leave it to Alistair deal with Loghain, let Alistair fight him, then behead him, i have nothing to do with it all and it is all not my problem...

It is role-playing...and in role-play it is the player choice

On the other hand, one could argue that the Warden would as legitimately say "Okay, justice has to take a backseat, we need as many swords as there are in this country."

Or maybe "The elves are still alive, killing Loghain is unjust." (Not saying that's principled, or even true for long under the Tevinter blood magi, just saying a Warden might think that way.)

Or maybe "I don't give an ass about Ferelden politics, the Grey Wardens, or anything like that. And Alistair's my friend. Seeya, dead-guy." (In fact, that was the decision I rp'ed in my second playthrough.)

Edit: But still, player choice. We agree there. (Though I'd argue that a Warden who genuinely considers Alistair a friend wouldn't go that far to annoy him. If, on the other hand, the Warden has been savagely attacking Alistair's beliefs the whole time, or the player views their character as a manipulative, amoral monster, then screwing Alistair over could be considered the logical final step. Best way to do that? Don't harden him, spare Loghain, try to get him to marry Anora anyway, let the Landsmeet watch him nix that deal to become an exile. Requires a bit of metagaming, but it's not like any of those steps are Out-Of-Character for a Warden of that description.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 14 juin 2012 - 02:46 .

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Whatever...

Loghain is still the bad guy in the game

No. Howe and...er....the Archdemon are.

[Persephone]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I have rwead them, David Gaider don't give any solid answer, that would be a spoiler, as the writer of a game where the player make own conclusion, he will not not give a direct answer

by the way...

PC : When do we light the beacon?
Duncan : We will signal you when the time come

in other dialogue path Duncan said Alistair know where the place to lit it...meaning Alistair ALREADY BE IN THE TOWER before for some reason...

There is NO signal from Duncan or Grey Wardens, we just light the beacon after killing the Orge

Alistair explains this: "We've surely missed the signal." The beacon was lit too late. Something he later conveniently "forgets".

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...
Alistair explains this: "We've surely missed the signal." The beacon was lit too late. Something he later conveniently "forgets".

Alistair assumes they missed the signal, because of what Duncan said. The general - that is Loghain -  could assume how the battle will develop, and he could tell Duncan about it.  But such things can't be predicted exactly. It could be forty minutes, it can be hour and half. Alistair has
no way to know that, as he's not in the battlefield, he's in the Tower.

Alistair is worried, because it was longer to get up there then expected, though he has no idea how much time passed. - in situation like this, the perception of time is different. But ok, let's say it was several hours and they were really late.

It is still Loghain's fault, not Alistair's.

Because, you know, Loghain was the general. Loghain was the one who made the strategy, including the stupid double-signal.

So, let's see: the Tower has the crucial part in the strategy. But Loghain waits till the beginning of the battle to make preparations for signal. Loghain knows about the tunnels. But he doesn't order to fill them in - there is enough people, material and time, while the Warden is in the Wilds.

One more thing - about the signal. The Wardens are supposed to wait for the signal, based on which they would lit the fire to signal to Loghain that he should join the battle, right? But, Loghian is watching the battle from the hill. He can see what the situation is (wasn't that his excuse, that he saw it was too late?). So even if the Warden and Alistair were late - he would have seen the first signal.

And even if not, the fact is he still saw the situation. But instead of reacting in time, he decided to wait for the signal. Because that was the agreement and he couldn't possibly break it, the honourable man he was, not even to save hundreds of people. No, he had to wait until it was too late - and then he suddenly didn't have the problem to break the agreement any more. Lol.

So no matter how you want to twist this - Alistair had nothing to 'conveniently forget'. He was a common soldiers who followed the strategic decisions made by the general (we see on the war council that it is Loghain's, not Cailan's strategy) forwarded to him through his Commander.

The fiasco at the Tower and in Ostagar was not the fault of Wardens, but of one incompetent general.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nizaris1 wrote...

^ yup, i agree with Klidi 100%

Like my early argument, why Loghain wait for the signal to retreat?

Because he is actually WAITING FOR FAILURE...

- he know about the tunnel
- he know darkspawn is filling up the tower
- he underestimate the Warden and Alistair
- he is shocked to see they both manage to lit the beacon

IF the beacon is not lit, the Warden and Alistair failed to lit it, HE CAN MAKE AN EXCUSE... "i don't see the signal, so the battle lost is not my fault, it just the Grey Warden are incompetent"...it turn out that the Warden and Alistair manage to lit it, that is why he retreat as soon as the beacon is lit....

The only counter-arguments I can give for your basic points are 1: This assumes Loghain's Plan A is to fight darkspawn and a much larger foreign country with half his army, even if he didn't expect the Civil War (which I suppose is unclear) 2: Nobody physically present on that battlefield could have controlled the darkspawn, which makes using them for one's own purposes (especially that close to where you personally are sitting) a very risky, completely idiotic move, (to Klidi's credit, she's not making this assumption) 3: Gaider's already stated that Loghain purposely screwing the king is not his interpretation, (though Klidi's idea that he just came up with a stupid plan has some merit, if only on the grounds that the whole battle was a stupid idea that Loghain tried to make work) and a lot of the time Gaider was probably either present when this game was being written or two doors or so down (I refer of course to the parts he didn't write personally) and 4: apparently there's actually comments hidden within the game files that heavily imply that this was not Loghain's plan A. The third one is kind of shaky, I guess, don't bother attacking it.. Try the rest of them.

Speaking of shaky arguments, Alistair's in a tower. The assumption that Loghain can see the first signal just because Alistair's supposed to be able to see it arguably makes less sense than taking Gaider's word. That's probably why the double signal was neccesary.

(Or actually, the double signal can also be partially explained by the Word Of God you're rejecting. Loghain wished to be able to control whether or not he could see the signal, that might be why he wanted to be watching a location near him. So by that interpretation, it's still Loghain's fault the King died, unless Ostagar was hopeless from the beginning, in which case... see thread title. Still, it's a giant tower. From the top, Alistair can see things Loghain can't possibly. Yeah, it's only supposed to be four floors or so, but that tower looks a lot bigger on the outside.)

As for the idiocy of not closing the lower chambers... I don't think there were any visible that the spawn didn't make. At first I thought that was developer oversight, but taken in context with the Word Of God that Loghain wanted to have control of the signal, tossing people out on a pretext starts to make some sense. Remember when I said that I decided to accept the Word Of God because the game's plot makes more sense that way? (No, I'm not calling it "Word of God" because Klidi did, this happens often enough that people actually came up with a term for it, hence the capitalization. I wasn't going to use it, but it's a lot easier than coming up with a term for myself that everyone understands.)

As for not knowing until it was too late that the window of oppurtunity had been missed... I dunno. Maybe he was watching the beacon instead of the battlefield? Maybe he was planning to second-guess the people who were going to signal him all along, substituting his own judgement for theirs if he didn't think he could win the battle by charging right then? Or maybe Alistair really did lose track of time and light the beacon too early, causing Loghain to conclude that he wasn't getting his signal. I don't know if that's possible, but it does make some sense.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 15 juin 2012 - 04:31 .

[TEWR]

Klidi wrote...

The fiasco at the Tower and in Ostagar was not the fault of Wardens, but of one incompetent general.

He's not incompetent. He's inconsistently portrayed.

We're told that he's a great general, but the game fails to show this. We're told that he likes to know where his borders end and he wants to know every crucial spot about his homeland that's tactically sound.

And yet he knows nothing of Ostagar, only deigning to learn about it when he's summoned there to fight the Blight.

And then he doesn't do the required things to make the battle go easier.

The strategy he proposed was the Anvil&Hammer strategy, meant to corral the Darkspawn. It was based on an erroneous assumption that the Darkspawn wouldn't be so numerous.

If he had an accurate estimation of the Darkspawn's forces, it'd be a great plan. And it is a great strategy, if you know your enemy's numbers -- roughly anyway. At least, it'd probably work better that way.

Like I said, it's not incompetence but rather an inconsistent portrayal. Something Bioware has been the victim of. They did this with the Arishok in terms of his military prowess and they were inconsistent (IMO) with Aveline's portrayal.

It stems from a lack of understanding of warfare tactics on Bioware's part.

Let's examine Ostagar. Instead of having the forces stay in the valley with the walls surrounding them -- where they could control the narrow pass with more ease -- they instead charge out into the open.

Bioware can say these characters are great generals all they want. And they can make them "win" by reason of authorial dictate all they want.

But without showing that they actually know how to fight a battle, it's inconsistent portraying and falls more to "They succeed because of the plot, rather then their skill".

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2012 - 07:06 .

[Sabariel]

I always put Anora and Hardened Alistair on the throne. Best of both worlds, I say.

[Persephone]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Let's examine Ostagar. Instead of having the forces stay in the valley with the walls surrounding them -- where they could control the narrow pass with more ease -- they instead charge out into the open.

Bioware can say these characters are great generals all they want. And they can make them "win" by reason of authorial dictate all they want.

But without showing that they actually know how to fight a battle, it's inconsistent portraying and falls more to "They succeed because of the plot, rather then their skill".

Cailan's forces charge into the horde, yes. Which is utterly moronic. And not part of the strategy. (That alone is enough to demolish the old Vice strategy employed here. The vice must be shut gradually, if one part clamps down rapidly, it falls apart) Yet Cailan wanted his "glory"....*Blech*

As for examining Ostagar: Remember again how stressed out he is. And he won those battles at Ostagar, the ones that preceded the one where the PC is present. He is responsible for everything because his king is an imcompetent dolt who is "bored with strategies" and whines about there being no Archdemon in sight! The Wardens do NOTHING to stop Cailan from throwing his life away, nothing. They don't tell him what he needs to know, they don't warn him against fighting on the front lines, nothing.

The debacle at Ostagar had many reasons. A much larger force than expected. An incompetent, lying king, a delayed signal, an army incapable of dealing with stealth attacks in the middle of a crisis, Grey Warden secrecy and arrogance... and yes, Loghain's miscalculations re: enemy numbers and Cailan's behavior.

He is not incompetent. Caesar himself could not have turned that fiasco around. And so he did the tactically sound thing and retreated. These are the troops holding Denerim until the Warden gets there from Redcliffe, btw. (They even shout Loghain's name as they fight....) Had he not saved them, the city would have been destroyed utterly.

[Klidi]

Persephone wrote...

Cailan's forces charge into the horde, yes. Which is utterly moronic. And not part of the strategy. (That alone is enough to demolish the old Vice strategy employed here. The vice must be shut gradually, if one part clamps down rapidly, it falls apart) Yet Cailan wanted his "glory"....*Blech*

Sorry, but that's nonsense. Loghain remarks about Cailan wanting to play the hero relates to his own presence at the battlefield, not his forces.
t is clearly stated in the game that it IS part of the Loghain strategy. After the argument, when Loghain doesn't offer any other solution except 'let's do nothing', they look at the maps and Cailan says: "Fine. Speak your strategy. The Grey Wardens and I draw the darkspawn into charging our lines. And then?"

But I agree that it was utterly moronic strategy.

Persephone wrote...

As for examining Ostagar: Remember again how stressed out he is. And he won those battles at Ostagar, the ones that preceded the one where the PC is present. He is responsible for everything because his king is an imcompetent dolt who is "bored with strategies" and whines about there being no Archdemon in sight! The Wardens do NOTHING to stop Cailan from throwing his life away, nothing. They don't tell him what he needs to know, they don't warn him against fighting on the front lines, nothing.

Remember again that he is a general. He can't afford himself to be stressed out. He won the battles together with Cailan, by the way. At the war council, it's clear that Cailan is not incompetent king. He suggested waiting for Orlesian reinforcements. He wants to cooperate with Orlais and to strengthen international position of Ferelden by political marriage with Orlais. Loghain, on the other hand, shows that his personal interests matter more to him than the interests of his country.

Persephone wrote...
The debacle at Ostagar had many reasons. A much larger force than expected. An incompetent, lying king, a delayed signal, an army incapable of dealing with stealth attacks in the middle of a crisis, Grey Warden secrecy and arrogance... and yes, Loghain's miscalculations re: enemy numbers and Cailan's behavior.

He is not incompetent. Caesar himself could not have turned that fiasco around. And so he did the tactically sound thing and retreated. These are the troops holding Denerim until the Warden gets there from Redcliffe, btw. (They even shout Loghain's name as they fight....) Had he not saved them, the city would have been destroyed utterly.

Even if Cailan was incompetent and lying (where did he lie?), it wouldn't have impact on the battle strategy, as he was not the one who made it. Except for his own presence at the battlefield, he followed Loghain's decisions.
And, as he was there watching the battle, he could have easily decide to charge in before the second signal. He was the general. He had the power to make that decision. But the fact is, that he just stood there waiting, watching the slaughter until it was too late and then pulled out.

If he kept his promise to Maric not to abandon soldiers on the battlefield because of one man, he could have made difference, or at least save more of them.
His troops were also what he used against other Fereldens who questioned what happened at Ostagar and didn't accept him as a ruler - ignoring the horde of darkspawn for almost a year and losing whole south of the country to Blight. He knew that it was real Blight, as he was watching the horde massacring Cailan's troops. But even that was not enough for him to put his personal interests aside and defend the country.

[TEWR]

Persephone wrote...


Cailan's forces charge into the horde, yes. Which is utterly moronic. And not part of the strategy. (That alone is enough to demolish the old Vice strategy employed here. The vice must be shut gradually, if one part clamps down rapidly, it falls apart) Yet Cailan wanted his "glory"....*Blech*

I would hope that it was just more on Cailan's vain and idiotic need for a "glorious battle" and not actually part of Loghain's strategy that Cailan charge out there, ruining the plan as a result.

I mean I know Loghain didn't want Cailan to die on purpose. I'm just hoping he wasn't telling Cailan to charge out there because Loghain thought that'd actually work for his strategy.

The strategy works better when you can control your enemy's space, which works doubly better when you can control how much damage your own forces will take.

As for examining Ostagar: Remember again how stressed out he is. And he won those battles at Ostagar, the ones that preceded the one where the PC is present. He is responsible for everything because his king is an imcompetent dolt who is "bored with strategies" and whines about there being no Archdemon in sight! The Wardens do NOTHING to stop Cailan from throwing his life away, nothing. They don't tell him what he needs to know, they don't warn him against fighting on the front lines, nothing.

Again, that falls more to authorial dictate rather then an actual expressed showcasing of Loghain's talent as a general.

Informed Ability is what the trope is called.

Yes Cailan didn't help the battle of Ostagar, but that's not what I'm getting at.

Loghain is inconsistently portrayed. We're told he's a great general, but in reality a general with the same persona as Loghain wouldn't have done the following:

1) Waited until he's brought to Ostagar to learn about one of the best fortresses in Ferelden
2) explored the lower chambers of the Tower of Ishal on the eve of battle instead of collapsing them so as to strengthen the chance of victory. Remember, it was Loghain's men in there.
3) wouldn't have accepted seven mages. He, the Grey Wardens, and his King would've pressed the Chantry for Mages and Templars to fight the Blight, because the Darkspawn are more important then Chantry fear.

Loghain's the general here. While Cailan is an idiot hero in the truest sense of the word, Ostagar was a failure due to Loghain just as much as it was to Cailan, the army itself, and the Wardens.

By reason of authorial dictate, we are told he's a great general. But we don't see it -- in fact, we constantly hear about it -- and thus Loghain is inconsistently portrayed.

Loghain's a great character. Probably my favorite in Dragon Age. And I want to believe he's a great general, but in reality a great general would have bothered to learn about Ostagar in the thirty years that Ferelden was free.

Loghain is made out to be a man that wants to know where his borders end and how best to defend those borders.

And yet he didn't bother to learn about Ostagar, the fortress that stands on the edge of the Korcari Wilds and prevented the Chasind Wilders -- which Sister Petrine says Ferelden ignores at their own peril -- from taking Ferelden.

 

The debacle at Ostagar had many reasons. A much larger force than expected. An incompetent, lying king, a delayed signal, an army incapable of dealing with stealth attacks in the middle of a crisis, Grey Warden secrecy and arrogance... and yes, Loghain's miscalculations re: enemy numbers and Cailan's behavior.

Yes, all of those are factors. And additionally, not enough fortifications were built. And Arl Howe's betrayal of the Couslands led to the Amaranthine forces being "delayed".

But Loghain is the general. He is the one that's supposed to plan for every eventuality. The lower chambers are one of those.

A prudent and smart general would order the chambers to be destroyed and collapsed, for safety's sake at the very least.

And Loghain is a smart general. We just don't see it when it should count, save for when he retreats -- which I'll state that IMO anyone with half a brain would do.

I guess what I'm really getting at is that he's not being a proactive general.

He is not incompetent

I said he was inconsistently portrayed. I didn't say he was actually incompetent. Just that Bioware has no clue how to make him be a general that lives up to what we're told he is.

"Loghain's a great general!" -- told by various NPCs.

Then prove it Bioware. Keep your portrayal consistent, because I know he's not incompetent. But you're really inconsistent on this matter.

. Caesar himself could not have turned that fiasco around. And so he did the tactically sound thing and retreated.

Yes that was the sound thing to do. But I think common sense would apply there, when you see Darkspawn continuously pouring out of the Wilds with no end in sight.

However, even had Loghain taken precautions to ensure the battle had a greater chance of victory and still failed, I could say that he was made out to be a great general because he did things prior to the battle that any halfway decent general would've done.

If we were told he studied Ostagar in the past and sealed up those lower chambers upon finding them, then that'd be a more consistent portrayal of him as a great general. Because then he not only knows about the fortress that sat on the edge of the Wilds and is critical to Ferelden's southern defenses, but he knew well enough that he shouldn't take any chances with the lower chambers.

If the Darkspawn still poured into the Tower even after he had done so, I wouldn't find much to blame him for. Because he did the prudent thing. It may have still failed, but he would've acted accordingly.

Ostagar would've still been a failure, but Loghain would've had a more consistent portrayal and thus have been less of a reason for its failure -- inaccurate estimations of the Darkspawn's numbers being one of the few things, if not the only thing, he could be blamed for.
 

These are the troops holding Denerim until the Warden gets there from Redcliffe, btw. (They even shout Loghain's name as they fight....) Had he not saved them, the city would have been destroyed utterly.

Um... I'm not claiming Loghain should've charged in to save Cailan. What he did when the beacon was lit was the best course of action.

I'm not claiming he was incompetent. I'm denying that he is incompetent, in fact. I'm saying Bioware can't give the man a consistent portrayal.

He's a competent general by word of mouth and I do believe he is.

I just don't ever see it, save for one instance where it's the obvious course of action -- his hesitant retreat.

Klidi wrote...

He wants to cooperate with Orlais and to strengthen international position of Ferelden by political marriage with Orlais. Loghain, on the other hand, shows that his personal interests matter more to him than the interests of his country.

Loghain made a promise to Maric that no one man would ever be more important then the kingdom. That includes the King, if the King is endangering Ferelden.

Loghain knows nothing about Celene other then that she's an Orlesian Empress. She's even reputed to be an expansionist in one codex, which lends credibility to why Loghain distrusts her and Orlais still.

Never mind that Orlais was just kicked out 30 years ago and a political marriage would not go over well with the populus.

Idealism is fine, but not blind idealism. And Cailan is a blind idealist, ignoring how Orlais conquered Nevarra under the pretense of helping them in the Third Blight. They helped, certainly.

But they never left, because Nevarra was too weakened to fight back. Nevarra had to kick them out decades later.

While we the players eventually find out Celene is against invading Ferelden again, Loghain had no way of knowing this.

But he also wants to prove that Ferelden can defend itself without the aid of any other nation. He is the very embodiment of Fereldan independence and hard work, less a man and more a symbol. To go to them for aid renders that spirit that they can fight their own battles with minimal aid -- if any at all -- invalid.

Asking Orlais for aid, while they may not have tried to reconquer Ferelden then, was not in Ferelden's best interests, as far as anyone knew.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 juin 2012 - 11:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The answer is simple, Bioware knows **** about warfare. End of story.

With regards to the underground chambers, the tower was full of soldiers and including at least one mage. Not sure what more he could have done. We know from RtO and Gaider that the Darkspawn got there because an Ogre broke through. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 juin 2012 - 11:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bah nevermind.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 juin 2012 - 11:23 .