170 réponses à ce sujet

[Aiyie]

ABjerre wrote...

Lividliver wrote...
Regarding the multishot sniper,at least a non-krysae one isn't able to take out whole groups at a time.Case in point,an experienced infil with a black widow would be hard pressed to take out 3 or 4 phantoms (grouped up together and charging towards him),within the span of a clip of 3 rounds.The average infil and even possibly other classes armed with a krysae x can take them all out within a 3 round clip.

If you show me a vid of you or anyone else in an unmodded game taking out 3 phantoms from 100% health and barriers with 3 shots from a Krysae with any mods+gear i'll agree with you that its possible - not likely, but possible when attempted enough times.

Untill then, i'll say that you are exaggerating its performance by a huge margin.

he's not.

you can easily 2 shot phantoms on gold with a krysae X and even a lvl one amp, without using any ammo power, as an infiltrator.

get a group of phantoms close enough together, and you could 2 shot the whole bunch of them without even realizing it.

[DarthSliver]

Blind2Society wrote...

Yes the L33T people who find everything in this game easy as it is should be catered to, we get it.

We lesser beings should be forced to pull our hair out so that all you greater beings can feel challenged.

How bout this, if the the gun makes the game too easy for you don't use it. If you're complaining about others using it then you are simply mad that you didn't get as many points and/or the top score. And you're probably the same people that say there is no such thing as kill stealing in a co-op game. Hypocrites.

If they nerf the gun because of the whiners i will whine myself that is the fact of life. The gun does need skills to one shot things, I know from experience. My friend who is better at this game than I am can one shot things with it but i do the same build and everything as him and I still cant one shot things with it. This whole thing about the gun not needing skills is a load of bull crap and they know it. They just wanna be on top of the score board like you said Blind2Society. I hope Bioware see this too like we do. 

[Aiyie]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

dont think ive seen it one shot anything other than husks, assault troopers and geth troopers.

My Geth Infil, with max damage Networked AI, Cloak and Hunter vision, with a damage barrel and Sniper Gear 3 can 1-shot Rocket Troopers. If I trade out any one of these things I lose the ability (leaving them with 1-3 health bars) but I can make up for it with an ammo amp or a Sniper amp.

ok, i know what you mean now.

it almost seems as though the krysae ignores shield gate sometimes... and yea, it can one shot rocket troopers and maraduers and centurions sometimes.

but its so inconsistent i always figured it wasn't intentional, and didn't really want to count it as being something it was capable of.

[JiceDuresh]

Aiyie wrote...


as for losing... i disagree with the "as it should be" line.  yes, i may lose some, but that should not be accepted as a law, or something that is unavoidable.  if someone has the capability of winning once, they should be able to win all the time (especially in a coop game where you're going up against a scripted AI). 

there should never be an artificial limit placed on people that will guarantee a loss simply because nobody should win all the time.  the threshold to achieve complete victory should be high, but it should never be unachievable.

The idea is that it's not scripted, that one bad grenade or some really unlucky banshee grabs could ruin a game for people. If you win every time, it's not gold diffculty, it's silver with better rewards. I'm not saying it's not possible that you couldn't win every single one you go into.  I'm saying that the risk of failing should always be there.  With skill it's mitigated, with good Krysae Snipers, it's a guaranteed extraction reguardless of skill, that's not what difficulty is supposed to be about. If you want a guarnateed extration at your skill level you should play silver, if you want better rewards for your better skill and harder work, that's what gold should be for. Currently with certain builds, there's no difference.

[ABjerre]

Aiyie wrote...

ABjerre wrote...

Lividliver wrote...
Regarding the multishot sniper,at least a non-krysae one isn't able to take out whole groups at a time.Case in point,an experienced infil with a black widow would be hard pressed to take out 3 or 4 phantoms (grouped up together and charging towards him),within the span of a clip of 3 rounds.The average infil and even possibly other classes armed with a krysae x can take them all out within a 3 round clip.

If you show me a vid of you or anyone else in an unmodded game taking out 3 phantoms from 100% health and barriers with 3 shots from a Krysae with any mods+gear i'll agree with you that its possible - not likely, but possible when attempted enough times.

Untill then, i'll say that you are exaggerating its performance by a huge margin.

he's not.

you can easily 2 shot phantoms on gold with a krysae X and even a lvl one amp, without using any ammo power, as an infiltrator.

get a group of phantoms close enough together, and you could 2 shot the whole bunch of them without even realizing it.

The invitation to show a vid of it is hereby extended to anyone. I have yet to see it do these truely amazing things on a reliable basis. The scenarios people describe are so rare that they can only be counted as an annomaly - its much more likely for a Geth Inf with melee spec and melee stunner on his scorpion to melee 3 or 4 phantoms, yet you talk about it like its a common occurrance.

Modifié par ABjerre, 11 juin 2012 - 10:09 .

[Lividliver]

ABjerre wrote...

Then by extention if all the mooks of all the waves spawned at the same time and moved right on top of eachother, you could take out all of them in 3 shots, but when game design and movement pattern makes it impossible, that is also, just like the one you describe where 4 phantoms move on top of eachother, and none of them target you, not a factor to be counted into the equation.

Pardon me,I'm abit confused by your reply.My statement was never to imply that when they spawned,they litteraly moved on top of one another.The few times I saw 3 or 4 phantoms spawn together at the same spot,it was side by side and behind each other.They then proceeded as a group to head towards the player nearest to them,hence the close proximity and possibility of the krysae round affecting them all.I don't see how game design and movement pattern makes it impossible for what I have described.

The phantoms were after one of the non-infil players while the infil player(armed with the krysae) who was cloaked at that time took them out.Even if the player armed with the krysae was not cloaked,the phantoms need not necessarily be targeting the person armed with the krysae,not especially if there is another player closer to them.

[ABjerre]

Lividliver wrote...

ABjerre wrote...

Then by extention if all the mooks of all the waves spawned at the same time and moved right on top of eachother, you could take out all of them in 3 shots, but when game design and movement pattern makes it impossible, that is also, just like the one you describe where 4 phantoms move on top of eachother, and none of them target you, not a factor to be counted into the equation.

Pardon me,I'm abit confused by your reply.My statement was never to imply that when they spawned,they litteraly moved on top of one another.The few times I saw 3 or 4 phantoms spawn together at the same spot,it was side by side and behind each other.They then proceeded as a group to head towards the player nearest to them,hence the close proximity and possibility of the krysae round affecting them all.I don't see how game design and movement pattern makes it impossible for what I have described.

The phantoms were after one of the non-infil players while the infil player(armed with the krysae) who was cloaked at that time took them out.Even if the player armed with the krysae was not cloaked,the phantoms need not necessarily be targeting the person armed with the krysae,not especially if there is another player closer to them.

Then it shouldn't be hard to reproduce.

My answer was an extention of your scenario, where you imply that it is only possible when they are in extremely close proximity to eachoter - in which case it can take out an infinite amount of enemies due to AOE, but as you said: it would be very hard to reproduce.

Be it right at the spawn or you manage to kite them to cross paths with other phantoms, i really dont care. Just show me a vid of someone with a Krysae taking out 3 or 4 phantoms from full bars with a single clip to back up your claims as to how amazing the gun is.

Modifié par ABjerre, 11 juin 2012 - 10:17 .

[Lividliver]

B3ckett wrote...

It's tiresome to use a power or shoot the last bullet at targets, that are constantly exploding.
I bet it's fun for the krysae's owner, but for me it's the other way round.

A good player with this gun in a small room = nothing to kill and just empty shots/power uses.

You havn't met a melee vorcha in such a scenario,they make for the saddest panda.Their very survival depends on getting the killing blow.

[DarkerCompanion]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The simple answer to the OP's question is that...
-It is disproportionately powerful compared to other Infiltrator weapon choices, with next to no downsides to offset its advantages.
-It requires relatively little skill to use to its potential.
-It exasperates the advantage of Infiltrators due to truly outstanding synergy with them.
-Balance affects many aspects of fun for many people, and many understand this to some degree or another.

I think the other thing that piggy-backs on the "little skill required" is that unlike other snipers, it does not require significant aim-time. Even body-shotting enemies requires lining up shots, which can take anywhere from half a second to three or four, maybe more if the enemy is behind cover. The Krysae takes as long as necessary to get the enemy in your scope at all, then just fire. You also don't have to wait for them to hop out of cover.

To empty a B. Widow clip for full damage, expect a good 5 seconds, or as long as 10 seconds (this includes time BEFORE you decloak, as you set up the shots). Krysae is literally as fast as the gun will fire.

B. Widow -> Cloak, wait, wait, wait, fire, reaim, fire, reaim
Krysae -> Cloak, firefirefire, reload.

[Lividliver]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The simple answer to the OP's question is that...
-It is disproportionately powerful compared to other Infiltrator weapon choices, with next to no downsides to offset its advantages.
-It requires relatively little skill to use to its potential.
-It exasperates the advantage of Infiltrators due to truly outstanding synergy with them.
-Balance affects many aspects of fun for many people, and many understand this to some degree or another.

I think the other thing that piggy-backs on the "little skill required" is that unlike other snipers, it does not require significant aim-time. Even body-shotting enemies requires lining up shots, which can take anywhere from half a second to three or four, maybe more if the enemy is behind cover. The Krysae takes as long as necessary to get the enemy in your scope at all, then just fire. You also don't have to wait for them to hop out of cover.

To empty a B. Widow clip for full damage, expect a good 5 seconds, or as long as 10 seconds (this includes time BEFORE you decloak, as you set up the shots). Krysae is literally as fast as the gun will fire.

B. Widow -> Cloak, wait, wait, wait, fire, reaim, fire, reaim
Krysae -> Cloak, firefirefire, reload.

Not forgetting that each krysae shot can potentially affect multiple enemies for the same amount of damage.

The most damning thing about the krysae is that it does not suffer the same hipfire penalties like other sniper rifles.

[Aiyie]

Lividliver wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

honestly... its this mindset that makes me use the krysae in random matches.

FBWG "strategy" is specifically designed so that enemies will never get close enough to be a legit threat.

its when, even when playing FBWG, that the bad guys do get close enough to be dangerous that i feel the need to break out the kryase.  and when i say dangerous, i don't mean not within counter grab range... i mean the average team that lets hunters sneak in behind the counters where they can't be grabbed.

a team that isn't capable of doing a FBWG match without letting the bad guys that close, is just too risky to not use the krysae... at least not if you want to be sure of making it to the end without pulling your hair out.

A full team of infils using it on FBWGG,makes for the opposite extreme whereby it turns into a snooze fest of just popping out from behind cover,shoot in general direction and things die.

I have begun noticing an increasing prevalance of players running about with nothing other than an infil krysae.If this keeps up,this game will become boring fast since nothing is more effective at killing than playing an infil krysae.People scream for variety in gameplay but isn't this working against what they are shouting out for?

well, FBWG is too dam easy even without the krysae... one of the reasons i don't do it anymore.

there are limits to even how far ill go for a win (at least in a game... in a real fight there's no such thing as a fair fight).

course... thats a win for me if everyone else starts using the krysae.  the gun can make up for their lack of skill enough so that i can go back to using more challenging weapons without feeling like i may be exceeding my limits for carrying them.

plus it presents a new challenge in that id have to work to do just as well with a conventional weapon as they do with the krysae.

granted, i doubt id be beating them by a hundred thousand or more anymore, but something tells me id still manage to at least break even, which, in light of just how easy the krysae is to use, ill take.

[Mailak]

Aiyie wrote...

if other players were better, if i could rely on them to do more than die to the first prime or ravager that looks at them cross eyed, then id love to be able to run with a different weapon... sadly, thats not the case.

Exactly the reason I use my Revenant on Silver and Gold but a Phaeston on Bronze. I'm happy to play around on Bronze but on higher difficulties I want a weapon capable of carrying my team if it comes to that.

Modifié par Mailak, 11 juin 2012 - 10:25 .

[Pitznik]

Blind2Society wrote...

Yes the L33T people who find everything in this game easy as it is should be catered to, we get it.

We lesser beings should be forced to pull our hair out so that all you greater beings can feel challenged.

How bout this, if the the gun makes the game too easy for you don't use it. If you're complaining about others using it then you are simply mad that you didn't get as many points and/or the top score. And you're probably the same people that say there is no such thing as kill stealing in a co-op game. Hypocrites.

Why do you feel the need to make up other people's motivations? Is it because it is easier for you to counter that false motivation? I could say the same ie: you just want to top scoreboard, and since you can't do it with a real weapon, you need an OP Krysae. There. I totally made up your motivation, you did nothing to suggest it is like that, but I don't care, it is easier for me to discuss with the strawman.

Truth is OP weapons spoil the fun part, and for me the fun part is beating a challenge through good play. Good play is staying alive, aiming, scoring headshots, picking your target so you eliminate what is currently most dangerous. Krysae makes some of this stuff for you - it aoes, so no picking target, no headshots. It explodes on proximity, so no aiming. If you score good with BW, I know that you're a good sniper. If you score good with Krysae, you might also be a good sniper, I'll never know. But if you aren't and we still won, that means we didn't really deserve to win, and that pretty much gives me no satisfaction, just credits.

I already grew bored of my Kroguard, since I'm most effective with Reegar, and that is some really mindless playing. I can top scoreboard 9 times out of 10, so I would stick to it if that was motivation to play. I'm killing enemies in a blink of an eye, while being basically immortal, and I can charge myself to the thick of action. But I rather play Batarian Soldier or Krogan Sentinel with Claymore - still a powerful weapon, one of the best ingame, but it requires some effort from me - scoring headshots, closing range for max effectiveness, reload canceling for max efficiency, I feel that I play the game, not that game is playing itself.

[Aiyie]

JiceDuresh wrote...

Aiyie wrote...


as for losing... i disagree with the "as it should be" line.  yes, i may lose some, but that should not be accepted as a law, or something that is unavoidable.  if someone has the capability of winning once, they should be able to win all the time (especially in a coop game where you're going up against a scripted AI). 

there should never be an artificial limit placed on people that will guarantee a loss simply because nobody should win all the time.  the threshold to achieve complete victory should be high, but it should never be unachievable.

The idea is that it's not scripted, that one bad grenade or some really unlucky banshee grabs could ruin a game for people. If you win every time, it's not gold diffculty, it's silver with better rewards. I'm not saying it's not possible that you couldn't win every single one you go into.  I'm saying that the risk of failing should always be there.  With skill it's mitigated, with good Krysae Snipers, it's a guaranteed extraction reguardless of skill, that's not what difficulty is supposed to be about. If you want a guarnateed extration at your skill level you should play silver, if you want better rewards for your better skill and harder work, that's what gold should be for. Currently with certain builds, there's no difference.

i don't accept luck as being a factor.

sufficient skill, ability and planning makes luck a non-issue.  especially against scripted AI.

luck should never come into play... whats the old saying?  a fair fight is a fight you didn't plan well enough for.

its kinda like the idea of a gun going off by accident.  guns do not go off by accident.  they go off because somebody didn't treat them with the proper amount of respect and didn't handle them properly.

the kyrsae simply makes the margin of error larger, so that those who lack the skill, ability and planning can still get to the end, whether they deserve it or not.

(most do not... but since im not skilled enough to solo gold, even with the krysae, i have no choice but to accept that they will win even when not deserving to, because in order for me to win, they must as well).

[Aiyie]

ABjerre wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

ABjerre wrote...

Lividliver wrote...
Regarding the multishot sniper,at least a non-krysae one isn't able to take out whole groups at a time.Case in point,an experienced infil with a black widow would be hard pressed to take out 3 or 4 phantoms (grouped up together and charging towards him),within the span of a clip of 3 rounds.The average infil and even possibly other classes armed with a krysae x can take them all out within a 3 round clip.

If you show me a vid of you or anyone else in an unmodded game taking out 3 phantoms from 100% health and barriers with 3 shots from a Krysae with any mods+gear i'll agree with you that its possible - not likely, but possible when attempted enough times.

Untill then, i'll say that you are exaggerating its performance by a huge margin.

he's not.

you can easily 2 shot phantoms on gold with a krysae X and even a lvl one amp, without using any ammo power, as an infiltrator.

get a group of phantoms close enough together, and you could 2 shot the whole bunch of them without even realizing it.

The invitation to show a vid of it is hereby extended to anyone. I have yet to see it do these truely amazing things on a reliable basis. The scenarios people describe are so rare that they can only be counted as an annomaly - its much more likely for a Geth Inf with melee spec and melee stunner on his scorpion to melee 3 or 4 phantoms, yet you talk about it like its a common occurrance.

at some point i'd think you'd accept the multitude of people saying its true as evidence enough of its truth.

you've never been to the moon, but you accept that there's no air there because enough people have told you so (or at least i hope so).

[cronshaw]

because it is a silly weapon

[ABjerre]

Aiyie wrote...
at some point i'd think you'd accept the multitude of people saying its true as evidence enough of its truth.

you've never been to the moon, but you accept that there's no air there because enough people have told you so (or at least i hope so).

Well most flies and good deal of dogs enjoy feasting on fecal matter. Why dont you? If enough think its delicious, then it must be true, yes? No, seriously...

If a published and respected professor tells me something, i'll take his word for it. If some random guy on an internet forum tells me something, i'll reserve the right to remain sceptical untill some sort of proof is given.

It comes down to credibility, and as far as i am concerned, people on gaming forums have none unless they can back up their claims.

Modifié par ABjerre, 11 juin 2012 - 10:44 .

[molecularman]

@abjerre: Krysae used by geth inf WILL 2-shot phantoms and that's a fact. You can do the math if you want to.

[Blind2Society]

^That's assuming it actually hits the phantom and/or doesn't fire blanks.

Pitznik wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

Yes the L33T people who find everything in this game easy as it is should be catered to, we get it.

We lesser beings should be forced to pull our hair out so that all you greater beings can feel challenged.

How bout this, if the the gun makes the game too easy for you don't use it. If you're complaining about others using it then you are simply mad that you didn't get as many points and/or the top score. And you're probably the same people that say there is no such thing as kill stealing in a co-op game. Hypocrites.

Why do you feel the need to make up other people's motivations? Is it because it is easier for you to counter that false motivation? I could say the same ie: you just want to top scoreboard, and since you can't do it with a real weapon, you need an OP Krysae. There. I totally made up your motivation, you did nothing to suggest it is like that, but I don't care, it is easier for me to discuss with the strawman.

Truth is OP weapons spoil the fun part, and for me the fun part is beating a challenge through good play. Good play is staying alive, aiming, scoring headshots, picking your target so you eliminate what is currently most dangerous. Krysae makes some of this stuff for you - it aoes, so no picking target, no headshots. It explodes on proximity, so no aiming. If you score good with BW, I know that you're a good sniper. If you score good with Krysae, you might also be a good sniper, I'll never know. But if you aren't and we still won, that means we didn't really deserve to win, and that pretty much gives me no satisfaction, just credits.

I already grew bored of my Kroguard, since I'm most effective with Reegar, and that is some really mindless playing. I can top scoreboard 9 times out of 10, so I would stick to it if that was motivation to play. I'm killing enemies in a blink of an eye, while being basically immortal, and I can charge myself to the thick of action. But I rather play Batarian Soldier or Krogan Sentinel with Claymore - still a powerful weapon, one of the best ingame, but it requires some effort from me - scoring headshots, closing range for max effectiveness, reload canceling for max efficiency, I feel that I play the game, not that game is playing itself.

Elighten me then your highness, what could be your motivation for giving a crap how powerful my weapon is or how I get my kills? Don't tell me that it's because there's no kills left for you and then go to another thread and say there's no such thing as kill stealing. Oh and by the way on gold, there are plenty of enemies for everyone even with someone tearing **** up with a Krysae. And if it really does upset you that much, leave the lobby or play private with your friends.

And this whole no-aiming-required crap is exactly that, crap. Yes, it takes less aiming than other SRs but it is still quite capable of missing and is quite efficient at hitting the wrong target. It also consistantly fires blanks and it still takes at least two cloaked shots to kill anything above an assault trooper.

If I'm trying to shoot a prime, it instead hits it's useless combat drone, decloaks me and I get killed by said prime. There are plenty of drawbacks to the weapon. Yes it's very powerful and I think that's a good thing, it's as powerful if not a bit less powerful than the other SRs should be.

If my team is being wiped in the hack circle by a crap ton of geth, I bet there very happy when I show up, clear the area and revive all three of them.  Also, if I'm sniping a bunch of enemies and all of a sudden I'm surrounded by 3 hunters, I'm quite happy I have a gun that can stun all three of them at once so I can hightail it to safety.

Basically it boils down to this, if you don't like the gun don't use it. If you don't like me using the gun then don't play with me. If it's my lobby, leave. If it's your lobby, kick me. If you don't like the gun, avoid it.

Stop crying nerf and trying to ruin other people's fun just because it's not fun for you.

Modifié par Blind2Society, 11 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[molecularman]

^ If OP weapons are your concept of fun you should go play bronze

[WandererRTF]

But then he won't be getting the CR€DIT$, which apparently are the sole reason for some of the people for playing the MP.

[Blind2Society]

If you want everything to fit your idea of fun and no one else's then you should go play single player.

[ABjerre]

Blind2Society wrote...
Basically it boils down to this, if you don't like the gun don't use it. If you don't like me using the gun then don't play with me. If it's my lobby, leave. If it's your lobby, kick me. If you don't like the gun, avoid it.

Stop crying nerf and trying to ruin other people's fun just because it's not fun for you.

I second this.

Saying someone should go play Bronze if they want to feel powerfull implies that gold is a reserved bracket for people "worthy of it". What someone plays and how he does it, especially if the motor behind the complain is that he is too effective, is noone elses business.

I dont enjoy GI's with melee specs, scorpions and melee stunners, so naturally i dont play that class. I dont enjoy playing with people that do because they tend to need a lot of revives, and i dont find that fun even though they potentially kill a lot of mobs. Therefore i naturally avoid them when i can, and bite the bullet when i get dropped into a fight with one. I never complain about ner... balancing their playstile, as increasing my own level of joy shouldn't happen at the expence of denying it completely to someone else.

Modifié par ABjerre, 11 juin 2012 - 11:16 .

[Zorinho20_CRO]

molecularman wrote...

@abjerre: Krysae used by geth inf WILL 2-shot phantoms and that's a fact. You can do the math if you want to.

Yes,it is a fact for infiltrators,I hadn´t tested with other chars.
As I wrote somewhere,Phantoms "hate" Krysae more than AA.This gun is some kind of equalizer,´cos have AoE and stagger effect and it is very useful to carry it in public matches,´cos you never know what kind of players you can expect.
 To upgrade Krysae you need few hours and my BW is at lv IX after hundreds hours of playing.
I don´t hate the gun,but for people who seek challenge there are other weapons.

[ABjerre]

zorinho20 wrote...

molecularman wrote...
Krysae used by geth inf WILL 2-shot phantoms and that's a fact. You can do the math if you want to.

Yes,it is a fact for infiltrators,I hadn´t tested with other chars.
As I wrote somewhere,Phantoms "hate" Krysae more than AA.This gun is some kind of equalizer,´cos have AoE and stagger effect and it is very useful to carry it in public matches,´cos you never know what kind of players you can expect.
 To upgrade Krysae you need few hours and my BW is at lv IX after hundreds hours of playing.
I don´t hate the gun,but for people who seek challenge there are other weapons.

I have no doubt that it does - my QMI with 5 levels of fitness does them in 3 shots, and the 3rd is mostly overkill. There is however quite a distance from this to the original claim that it wipes out entire squadrons of elite units on a regular basis.