37 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Why not? Good and bad is what you use something for. I see no evidence that there is anything intrinsic to bloodmagic itself that is either good or evil. It IS more potent than other magic and does open up possibilities that would be tempting to misuse (like mind control). Thus it IS dangerous in that sense.

However, you don't automatically have to deal with demons to learn it and even if you do, you DON'T have to sell a kid's soul. In DAO if you have Coercion 4, you can *intimidate* the Demon into teaching you Bloodmagic for free. You get something, hose over a demon, and save the kid with no strings attached. Definately a good result in my book.

Merrill is the same way. I never see Merrill do the remotest thing "evil' with her bloodmagic. I wish I could say the same for her Keeper/mentor Meretheri.

-Polaris

[Plaintiff]

Blood magic is not inherently evil. You can use it and still be a good mage and a good person in general.

[Night Dreams]

I think the 'evil' part about it is the consequences of using it. It apparently corrupts its uses more often than not, just as any sort of power may. *spoilers* In Asunder, Wynne almost submits herself to using a staff fueled by a sort of blood magic, and immediately her perceptions seem to change for the worse, and it is only when it is destroyed (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) does she return to her old self.
It is a very grey area, however, and debatable about what is so evil about it. Wynne and Alistair seem to think it is the all and end all in Origins, but why is never really explained.

[LobselVith8]

Meeeps wrote...

Hello, as I just started a new playthrough as mage, I wonder if it is possible to play a good mage but still become a blood mage. Please help to explain myself "not every blood mage is a bad or rather evil mage".

I know Merill does also blood mage stuff but not sure how much and I know Anders does not like it, without too much spoilers, how much does it infect relationships?

Grey Wardens are created through blood magic. Duncan notes that some Warden mages use blood magic to fight the darkspawn. Merrill never abuses her abilities as a blood mage. Anders and Merrill clash over a lot of things, including her Dalish religious beliefs in contrast to his Andrastian religious beliefs. Anders' opinions are simply that - opinions, not indisputable facts.

Blood magic doesn't mean your character is evil any more than wielding a sword or an axe does. It's a type of magic - that's all.

[Gervaise]

I think any character that has been brought up by the Chantry (Alistair) or in the Circle (Wynne, Anders) is going to be prejudiced against blood magic because the negative aspects have been impressed upon them. There is also the possibility that Wynne and Anders are influenced by their own spiritual partner. The "good" spirits do not like "bad" spirits and are either afraid of them (if weak) or will attack them (if strong).

Perhaps what is more important to the debate is exactly how blood magic increases mana, which is linked in with why blood seems to attract demons. With regard to the latter, I have a theory that it is not the blood itself but the accompanying emotion that is released. So cutting your finger would be unlikely to elict much of a response but slicing your hand will because it is going to be very painful and result in some sort of strong emotion even if self inflicted. When someone else is an unwilling sacrifice, the emotions generated will be even stronger and since they are "negative" emotions, they attract demons who feed upon them. This is true in the site of large scale bloodshed through war, even if no magic was actually involved. Obviously during the battle there is going to be a high level of anger, fear, anguish and suffering.

Since the mage needs the connection to the fade to perform magic, presumably you are drawing upon the spiritual power of the Fade in some way. Lyrium helps to boost this because there is some sort of connection between lyrium and the Fade. Likewise, spirits (good and bad) can do the same. Spirit Healers draw upon the connection made through "good" spirits to power their spells. These spirits are attracted to the emotions of compassion, etc, that the healer feels. Blood mages draw upon the connection made through "bad" spirits, which are attracted to the negative emotions. So whilst you do not have to be taught blood magic by a demon, there is a definite link between the power you gain and the presence of demons. If the link you create is too strong, you increase your chances of possession along with the power you receive. I think this may be what happened to Uldred in Origins. Tranquil can no longer perform normal magic because they are cut off from the Fade. They have also lost their emotions, so there must be some sort of two way flow, since they get them back the moment they touch the Fade again. May be spirits are needed generally to perform magic and are always present on the other side of the veil when magic is being performed.

So there is a case for saying that blood magic is only as good or bad as the person who uses it but the source of the power is a very risky one. On the whole, the demon will not be attracted by "happy" thoughts or benevolent ones. Merrill's demon was attracted by her pride, not her desire to help her people. Of course, as we know from Anders, this emotional effect can work in the opposite direction and corrupt the spirit - in fact according to the Chant of Light that is how demons first came to be. In Rivain their wise women allow themselves to be deliberately possessed. That is all we have been told so far but we know that you can be possessed by both benign spirits and demons, so may be this is another way in which magical power can be enhanced without turning into an abomination.

It is hinted at the end of Asunder in Rhys' speech that mages like him will use the opportunity freedom has given them to investigate the relationship between magic, the Fade and spirits more fully. Hopefully in DA3 this will give rise to some interesting plot lines and greater variety in magic so that blood magic won't necessarily be that attractive anyway.

[Janni-in-VA]

The difference between blood magic and the more accepted form of mana magic (for lack of a better term) is what fuels it. Blood magic draws on the life force in blood for power, while the magic taught in the Circle relies on mana (which can be replenished by lyrium). The Joining isn't really blood magic. Although darkspawn blood and the Taint it carries is part of the potion, the blood isn't fueling any form of magic. It is prepared by mages using lyrium and some other components, but it is NOT blood magic.

Now, that distinction being made, the danger of blood magic is twofold -- first, that it can control minds and secondly, that its power is (in theory at least) unlimited. Because blood magic can use the blood of more than one person to fuel spells, its practitioners are open to the dangers of corruption. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Apparently, because of magic's connection to the Fade, it attracts attention to mages. I liken it to firing off a flare gun or, in the case of blood magic as practiced in Tevinter, lighting a beacon. The flare of power is different from that normally seen by spirits in the Fade, and they come to investigate. From there, I think it likely that the emotions surrounding the spell and the intentions of the practitioner attract particular demons or spirits.

So, I think it's perfectly possible to be an ethical blood mage. You may deliberately choose to use only your own blood, thereby making blood magic a last resort in a particularly difficult situation. You may also choose to scrupulously avoid any form of mental manipulation. It would, however, take a strong person to fight the temptation presented by the powers of blood magic. 

Modifié par Janni-in-VA, 16 juin 2012 - 11:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

The difference between blood magic and the more accepted form of mana magic (for lack of a better term) is what fuels it. Blood magic draws on the life force in blood for power, while the magic taught in the Circle relies on mana (which can be replenished by lyrium). The Joining isn't really blood magic. Although darkspawn blood and the Taint it carries is part of the potion, the blood isn't fueling any form of magic. It is prepared by mages using lyrium and some other components, but it is NOT blood magic.

Considering Gaider said the phylacteries are a form of blood magic, the Joining can be viewed as blood magic as well.

[TEWR]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

The difference between blood magic and the more accepted form of mana magic (for lack of a better term) is what fuels it. Blood magic draws on the life force in blood for power, while the magic taught in the Circle relies on mana (which can be replenished by lyrium). The Joining isn't really blood magic. Although darkspawn blood and the Taint it carries is part of the potion, the blood isn't fueling any form of magic. It is prepared by mages using lyrium and some other components, but it is NOT blood magic.

Just because you use lyrium to perform something doesn't mean it's not blood magic. Blood magic is about using blood to perform/amplify magic or gaining abilities through blood.

Indeed, the phylacteries are a form of blood magic -- per Word of God. We see a case of Gascard using blood kept in a vial to track down Alessa.

That is, without a doubt, the same function a phylactery performs. So it seems that blood can track down the person it belongs to, mage or no. And that is still blood magic.

My theory is that the Templars add lyrium to the vial of blood to bypass the need for a blood mage. We know that both lyrium and phylacteries glow -- the latter when in the presence of the Mage it belongs to.

If that's the case, it's still blood magic.

And the Joining IS blood magic. As I said above, blood magic is also about gaining abilities from blood.

The Reaver specialization is gained through the ritualized consumption of blood and is labeled as being "definitely a form of blood magic". Additionally, Dragons in DAO are known to use both the Blood Magic ability as well as Frightening Appearance -- a Reaver talent.

Because the Reaver Joining and the Warden Joining follow the same principles -- ritualized consumption of blood -- then they are both blood magic.

Use of lyrium does not negate how something is blood magic. The Tevinter Imperium's Magisters of Olde used lyrium in conjunction with their blood to amplify their magic to extraordinary heights.

And indeed, Finn in DAO:WH acknowledges that the Scrying ritual is, at best, a grey area. Just because blood isn't powering the spell doesn't mean it isn't blood magic, or that it cannot be considered it.

But since David Gaider has said the phylacteries are blood magic, that means that blood doesn't always have to power the spell to actually be blood magic.

[KiwiQuiche]

Personally I don't view Blood Magic as evil; killing people to fuel your own power, yes that's a no-no. (Leeching from your teammates is okay I presume, since they don't complain about it.)

It's how you wield it; unfortunetly most Blood Mages you come across are competely bonkers which makes it look bad...

But just look at all the loonies using swords (yeah I'm looking at you Meredith) and yet swords aren't treated as vile things. It's how you use it.

[Meeeps]

I do agree too, blood magic itself isn't evil, but it is a very strong weapon against the evil. Like grey wardens use it, templers use it to "control" the mages. The evil part is IMO involvement of spirits/daemons like almost every other blood mage shows (including Anders), which does not need blood magic.

[Gervaise]

Which again comes back to the question of how exactly blood augments the magic. Clearly when using phylacteris or in the Grey Warden ritual the blood itself is not sufficient but something else has to be added to make the magic effective. In the case of the warden ritual, they add lyrium which is known to be a magic enhancer. So whilst technically it is blood magic (since you use blood) it is not the same as when blood is used to fuel spells.
When Merrill uses blood magic to open the barrier she admits a demon briefly materialised to aid the spell. When other blood mages are active they tend to glow red in the same way that Anders glows white, so either they are already possessed or a demon is making temporary contact with them and this augments their powers.
When spirit healers operate, they use benign spirits to aid and augment their spells. The explanation about spirit healing says that templars only barely tolerate spirit healers because they are using creatures of the Fade to assist them and it is only because the magic is benign and beneficial that they are allowed to do so.
Whilst the writers have not made it explicitly clear, there does seem a clear implication that when you perform blood magic (using either your own blood or someone elses to allow casting of spells) then your powers are being aided by Fade creatures, more specifically demons.
In Legacy part of the reason Malcolm Hawke objected to using blood magic for the binding ritual is that involved using demons.
Even if you feel there is nothing intinsically wrong in using demons to aid you, it is a highly risky business.

[LobselVith8]

According to the lore: "Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters.Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free,because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[sylvanaerie]

Meeeps wrote...

Hello, as I just started a new playthrough as mage, I wonder if it is possible to play a good mage but still become a blood mage. Please help to explain myself "not every blood mage is a bad or rather evil mage".

I know Merill does also blood mage stuff but not sure how much and I know Anders does not like it, without too much spoilers, how much does it infect relationships?

I think the bad with it as it pertains to a player character has to do more with how it's used and/or abused.  I've always looked on it as a tool, but the potential to abuse it (controlling other peoples' minds and bodies is pretty heinous to me) is too easy to do thanks to human nature.  If you don't like how someone is behaving, heck instead of talking it out and trying to reason with them, if you had the ability to just change their minds without working at it, who wouldn't?  It's just too easy/lazy to alter their perceptions and 'fix' the argument without having to actually fix it. 

I suppose it all boils down to how you roleplay why your Hawke would take up blood magic, and how he/she uses it.  There is the potential to be a good person just using a short cut to power to accomplish some worthwhile goal (like Merrill felt about the mirror) or a heinous psychopath like...well, (with a couple of exceptions) just about every other mage in the game.  But we all know about that road to hell and how it's paved...

Your companions have no reaction whatsoever to Hawke's chosen specialization.  There is no commentary at all (too bad, I'd have chosen the spec if there had been some realistic reaction to it, I found Spirit Healer much more useful--group heals and rez ftw!).  Similarly, there is no reaction to Warrior Hawke suddenly using templar abilities (without any logical explanation/access to lyrium).