71 réponses à ce sujet

[AKOdin]

@ Kal: You are right that 24 isn't much, but it is something to be aware of if you are planning a level by level build.



@One: Why do you say that STR raises your damage post lethality? Lethality, as I understand it, replaces rather than supplements the STR Attribute bonus for weapons.

[OneBadAssMother]

If your CUN is higher then STR, raising STR still adds to damage. Test it and see for yourself. So pretty much you'll have high CUN + low STR in total for damage.

So you should not have to worry about raising a bit of STR to wear some armor. Warden commander's armor for example has +30% critical damage or something, but it's plate.
Unfortunately a CUN based rogue may not be able to wear it in the end - but anyways just so you know, some stuff are made for rogues but a bit of STR is required.

Modifié par OneBadAssMother, 13 décembre 2009 - 01:41 .

[AKOdin]

Just tested it on PC, and adding the Ring of the Warrior did nothing to increase the damage shown. Didn't test it in combat.

Running PC 1.00 with no hotfix, so for daggers the game only looks at STR (or, if you have Lethality, CUN).

What version are you running? Could be another wrinkle in the patch... or a console thing.

[OneBadAssMother]

Strange, I'm running 1.01 =/

[System Shock]

AndrewN wrote...

Yep, Assassin and duelist is probably the way to go. Daggers only, take the 3rd level of each of the duel weapon talents but the 4th are not necessary for a rogue..

You need the 4th levels for achievements

[Kalcalan]

If you go for Strength you'll get behind with Cunning and backstabs, it's as simple as that. There is nothing wrong with a Rogue in a heavy armour except that such a Rogue will be less efficient as a backstabber because of the lower Cunning.

System Shock wrote...

AndrewN wrote...

Yep, Assassin and duelist is probably the way to go. Daggers only, take the 3rd level of each of the duel weapon talents but the 4th are not necessary for a rogue..

You need the 4th levels for achievements

Get the achievements and cripple your build, yeah, right... <_<

Modifié par Kalcalan, 13 décembre 2009 - 05:12 .

[Chragen]

The way I did it was get 24 dex right away. I went to 26 since so I could used The Edge. Momentum is just to good to pass up. So get that.

After getting 24(26) dex up your str to 15. You will get 4 points in the fade and it should be your first stop. Then you can use all the best armor in the game.

After that you just need to up up your cunning. I would go assassin first then either bard or ranger. Ranger gives a ton of dps, but the pet is really annoying to control since it's a little bugged. Most of the abilities don't show up on the action bar and you can only access the tactics screen when it's summoned. And it despawns when you enter a new zone.

Bard is also great for song of courage which gives you increased damage, attack(Important for a cunning rogue) and crit chance. And it scales based on your cunning score so it's perfect.

Other than that there isn't much to say. Most of the tier 4 abilities in DW are really mediocre for rogues so focus on getting the skills that affect backstab right away.

[king chris 2]

i always do the fade first anyway, but might get shale first because he is just owns nearly every 1

[plecha]

I am sorry to barge in once more, but there ist one thing that i don't get:



Someone wants to create a rogue that can "pick all the locks" and people urge him not to take more than tier one in lockpicking.



You first up your dex, then your str to meet requirements and only after that you begin to invest in cun. It will be some time until you can open anything else than the most easy locks, not to mention hard locks ... do people really do that? I mean what do you do with those crates you couldn't open? let them be or make notes and try to come back later?



Rogue has many skillpoints, so i would not consider two more points into lockpicking to be "wasted".

[Hahren]

plecha wrote...

I am sorry to barge in once more, but there ist one thing that i don't get:

Someone wants to create a rogue that can "pick all the locks" and people urge him not to take more than tier one in lockpicking.

You first up your dex, then your str to meet requirements and only after that you begin to invest in cun. It will be some time until you can open anything else than the most easy locks, not to mention hard locks ... do people really do that? I mean what do you do with those crates you couldn't open? let them be or make notes and try to come back later?

Rogue has many skillpoints, so i would not consider two more points into lockpicking to be "wasted".

Yeah, people really do that. It's also talent points not skill points. Rogues get plenty of skills, but talents can be at a premium for everyone. When I talk about lockpicking, and cunning I do so from my game experience. I placed 2 ranks into that talent line because I didn't want to wait (and there is a random encounter with a lot of traps... traps = xp!). Two ranks plus my cunning score got me by. I do remember when I hit the Circle tower there was a chest just before the Sloth demon that I couldn't open right then. I leveled up before the Sloth though, and brought my cunning up to the next breaking point (I think around 30). Then I tested the lock, and it opened just fine.

That was the only lock in the game that I couldn't open immediately. It must have had a difficulty of 40. I had already begun working on cunning since I had Lethality then. So after that point I was putting 2 into cun, 1 into dex, and that worked the rest of the game. The game mechanics on lock/trap disabling are really vague, but there is a post that describes how the difficulty is calculated. Once armed with that knowledge people build their characters accordingly.

[Lord Niah]

I would actually focus on pumping dexterity instead of cunning. You still want to get your cunning up to 30 in order to open all chests, but you can really just focus on increasing cunning enough in the early game to qualify for skills and talents. You also want a strength of 20 to wear the best light armor (or 22 to wear the helm of honnelath), but since it will be a while before you start getting that armor, you can keep your strength low as well.



High dexterity will give you great defense, great attack rating, and good damage with daggers and bows. With a cunning of 30 and all the lock picking talents, you will be able to open just about every chest in the game and disarm every trap.



Talents are as follows:



(0) Dirty fighting

(1) Dual Wield Training, Dual Wield Sweep

(2) Deft Hands

(3) Flurry

(4) Improved Tools

(5) Stealth, (Momentum)

(6) Stealthy Item Use

(7) Combat Movement

(8) Combat Stealth

(9) Mechanical Expertise

(10) Coup De Grace

(11) Dual Wield Finesse

(12) Master Stealth

(13) Device Mastery



The above is your core build. It has full stealth, full lock picking, and is solid backstabing build. You will also be using bow (a short bow if you have the archery fix mod from nexus).



Your two specializations are probalby going to be duelist and assassin to improve your combat abilities. You could also consider bard for song of valor to boost stamina regen in combat or go with ranger pets. Choice is up to you. You could also get some archery talents in the higher levels for those battles where it makes more sense to stand back with your bow. Maybe go for arrow of slaying.



You could also pick up lethality to boost your damage output a bit, but it seems like a stretch for the small bonus to damage.



For skills I would take as many points in combat training as need for the combat talents you select (probably 3-4), I would max out coercion (or at least 3 points), I would get at least one in poison (or possibly more if you like using bombs and posions), I would consider experiementing with traps and possibly maxing that instead of posion (let another party memeber make the posions then), and you might also want at least one point in stealing to eneable a certain series of quests.

[plecha]

Hahren wrote...

plecha wrote...

I am sorry to barge in once more, but there ist one thing that i don't get:

Someone wants to create a rogue that can "pick all the locks" and people urge him not to take more than tier one in lockpicking.

You first up your dex, then your str to meet requirements and only after that you begin to invest in cun. It will be some time until you can open anything else than the most easy locks, not to mention hard locks ... do people really do that? I mean what do you do with those crates you couldn't open? let them be or make notes and try to come back later?

Rogue has many skillpoints, so i would not consider two more points into lockpicking to be "wasted".

Yeah, people really do that. It's also talent points not skill points. Rogues get plenty of skills, but talents can be at a premium for everyone. When I talk about lockpicking, and cunning I do so from my game experience. I placed 2 ranks into that talent line because I didn't want to wait (and there is a random encounter with a lot of traps... traps = xp!). Two ranks plus my cunning score got me by. I do remember when I hit the Circle tower there was a chest just before the Sloth demon that I couldn't open right then. I leveled up before the Sloth though, and brought my cunning up to the next breaking point (I think around 30). Then I tested the lock, and it opened just fine.

That was the only lock in the game that I couldn't open immediately. It must have had a difficulty of 40. I had already begun working on cunning since I had Lethality then. So after that point I was putting 2 into cun, 1 into dex, and that worked the rest of the game. The game mechanics on lock/trap disabling are really vague, but there is a post that describes how the difficulty is calculated. Once armed with that knowledge people build their characters accordingly.

Hmm yes, somehow i always think of it as a skill. :/
I also hit the tower as my first destination with my rogue and the same thing happened to me with the one crate near the end.
Still i think with the above suggestions to work on dex and str first it might be a bit tedious with only one rank in lockpicking until you've finished 2 main storylines or so. Just my opinion, though.

[kevinwastaken]

So rogues always use a dagger in the off-hand and something else in the main hand?

[Kalcalan]

plecha wrote...

I am sorry to barge in once more, but there ist one thing that i don't get:

Someone wants to create a rogue that can "pick all the locks" and people urge him not to take more than tier one in lockpicking.

You first up your dex, then your str to meet requirements and only after that you begin to invest in cun. It will be some time until you can open anything else than the most easy locks, not to mention hard locks ... do people really do that? I mean what do you do with those crates you couldn't open? let them be or make notes and try to come back later?

Rogue has many skillpoints, so i would not consider two more points into lockpicking to be "wasted".

One more time then.

You won't need to pump more than a few points to get to 20 in Strength with the Fade bonus and items. That being said you only need that only if you want to wear that armour.

Once you get momentum you don't need to pump that many points in Dexterity, 26 is enough for expert dual wielding. With items and specializations it will be enough for defence and hit rates.

Maxed Cunning will allow you to open all locks with only one rank (don't forget items that boost Cunning as they can make a difference on a few occasions). You may once or twice have to go back to unlock some of them later which would be the same with more than one rank and lower Cunning (I'm thinking about the chest in the shop in Redcliffe which is harder to unlock but that is in no way a major problem).

Ability points are not so abundant that you can spend some on lockpicking when you could do the same thing and spend that point on something much more useful. I don't know about you but there are always abilities that I would like to pick but that I can't pick because I have better ones to choose first.

It's about the "best" build so in that case more than one rank in lockpicking is not such a good choice.

[swk3000]

Lockpicking is not required to open locked chests or doors. To see this in action, create a throwaway Human Rogue. Put his 5 free points into Cunnning, and make his starting talents Stealth and Dual Weapon Training. Now, run through the Origin story, but make sure you try all the locked chests and doors you find. Every one of them should open, despite the fact that you don't have the Deft Hands talent. The reason is that the game takes your Cunning score and plugs it into the following equation:



L = (C - 10) + (10 * T)



Where

L = Your Lockpicking skill

C = Your Cunning Score as displayed on the Character Record screen

T = Your level in the Lockpicking Talent. Deft Hands is Level 1, and Device Mastery is 4.



The game then compares L to the difficulty of the lock in question (60 is the hardest lock in the game), and if L is equal to or higher than the lock's Difficulty, then it opens. Going with 2 points in Lockpicking gives you an effective +20 Cunning when picking locks. For my build, I use my first two levels to increase my Dexterity to 26, then dump everything else into Cunning. That means that at Level 8, when I would be able to pick up Mechanical Expertise, I have 2 levels of Lockpicking, and a Cunning score of 31. This translates to a Lockpicking Level of 51. I'm only 3 levels shy of being able to pick every lock in the game. And all of this using only the Fomari Tome I got with my Memory Band DLC. I may run into a chest or two I can't open between now and then, but by noting them and coming back later, I save valuable Talent Points that would get me abilities that would be far more useful.

[kevinwastaken]

What do you think the total worth of all the items in locked chests is? 20 sovereigns maybe?

Modifié par kevinwastaken, 13 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[swk3000]

First, kevin, your sig is hilarious.



Second, I don't really care what the worth is. If it has an item I'm going to use, then great. If not, more money once I sell it. And you can never, ever have enough money.

[Kalcalan]

It's not the loot (mostly useless) it's all the XP you get by unlocking those safes.

[Must have name]

Personally, my favourite dagger Rogue build:

-You'll barely need to invest in Strength at all. With Key to the City and Andriul's Belt (and/or Harvest Festival Ring), plus the +4 Strength from the fade, then be a Human or Dwarf and you'll only need invest one point to wear the best light armour.
-Dex should be at 36 or so naturally without buffs in order to get the best Dual-Weapon talents. Anything over that will still increase your dagger damage and attack, but points are better spent in Cunning. That's not to say +dex on gear is bad though, it's great.
-Rest in Cunning. The main reason for pumping Cunning over Dex is the Assassin and Bard bonuses that rise with Cunning.
-Skill set in particular as follows: Assassin up to Lacerate, Bard up to Song of Courage, Combat Movement, Lethality, Master Stealth, Dual-Weapon Mastery, Momentum. Feel free to chuck in stuff like Whirlwind, but with daggers you won't be doing as much with that as with swords. Note that to open all chests, you need 30 Cunning with all 4 Lockpick Talents. Since you'll be pumping Cunning, I wouldn't bother going past 2 Lockpick Talents as you'll easily be above 50 midgame, and you may only need just the one.
-With any leftover Talent points, feel free to complete the Assassin and Bard trees, and or grab Coup de Grace & Riposte. The latter combined with Dirty fighting makes you quite handy at demonlishing a target when your tank isn't up to it, Stealth is on cooldown, or you're fighting a shield bearing enemy.
-Battlewise, just use Song of Courage and Momentum. That's really it. Dual-Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind are good in a crowd, but that's really it. Your natural damage will simply be immensly high and fast that skills arn't that nescessary. Just keep track of your movement and Stealth if you have aggro problems.

Modifié par Must have name, 13 décembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[swk3000]

Must have name wrote...

Personally, my favourite dagger Rogue build:

-You'll barely need to invest in Strength at all. With Key to the City and Andriul's Belt (and/or Harvest Festival Ring), plus the +4 Strength from the fade, then be a Human or Dwarf and you'll only need invest one point to wear the best light armour.

Actually, if you're a Human Noble, you start with 11 Strength. 11+2+2+2+4=21. You only need 20 Strength to equip the best Light Armor.

-Dex should be at 36 or so naturally without buffs in order to get the best Dual-Weapon talents. Anything over that will still increase your dagger damage and attack, but points are better spent in Cunning. That's not to say +dex on gear is bad though, it's great.

I personally think that the only Tier 3 Dual Weapon Talent worth getting is Momentum. The other two, and the entire 4th tier, is useless. For me, it's 26 Dexterity to pick up Momentum and equip the Edge before I hit Ostagar. Other than that, I don't bother with Dex.

Other than that, I agree with everything.

[Kalcalan]

swk3000 wrote...

I personally think that the only Tier 3 Dual Weapon Talent worth getting is Momentum. The other two, and the entire 4th tier, is useless. For me, it's 26 Dexterity to pick up Momentum and equip the Edge before I hit Ostagar. Other than that, I don't bother with Dex.

I agree, the 4th tier is useless for such a build so getting more than 26 is not a priority especially if it means less Cunning (and we're talking about 10 points at least, that's quite a difference and enough to skip a second rank in lockpicking by the way). If you add the bonus from the Fade, items and specializations you'll get a high Dexterity score anyway.

[Gecon]

Best Rogue is not possible, one has always to make choices. But my attempt:

- Dwarf Noble for the starter money you can make in that Origin (28+ gold), plus you are Dwarf with 10% spell resistance. You lose all items in that origin, so dont have qualms about selling all stuff, including the fancy magic weapons.

- Save a talent at level 7 so you can get both Lethality and Stealth 3 on Level 8 for a HUGE boost.

- Archery sucks, Dualweapon all the way.

- Even best Daggers dont need Str to be used. All other melee weapons need Str. So Daggers is the choice for Rogue.

- Specializations: Assassin, then Duelist.

- Get the 2nd Stun from Dual Weapon Style ASAP. Its vital to have both stuns as early as possible, esp in 1 vs 1 fights. In early 1 vs 1 fights, the Dual Striking sustainable before that is uber to have, too. After you have said stun, Momentum is the next goal.

- Dex vs Cun: Dex 36 is needed for highest Dualweapon skills. Both Dex and Str give you Atk, Cun NEVER does, not even with Lethality. Dex also gives you defense, and with Daggers and Patch 1.02 it gives damage.

- Cun 70 is needed for hardest locks in the game. Every step of the device tree gives you +10 bonus. You do the math how much you need.

- Biggest problem for Rogue is skills. Give as many skills as possible to others. You only need the first stage of poison and traps to use all poisons, bombs and traps. Make them on one of the companios.

[swk3000]

How do you make 28 gold from the Dwarven Noble Origin? I was lucky to get 7 or 8.

[king chris 2]

hi all



my rogue has just finished lothering n is in camp, n just going to go to mage tower so can get bonuses in the fade. my characters stats are at the moment strength 14, dex 28, will 12, magic 11, cunning 24 and con 10. I'm wearing studded leather armor, gloves n boots with weapons thorn of the dead gods n the edge. i've also got the first tier trap making, hebalism, poison making n up to expert combat training. I've got mark of death, combat movement, below the belt, deadly strike, deft hands, improved tools sealth, stealthy item use n duel weapon training. level 7 human rogue with 1 level of assasin. I'm now going to focus on cunning till 70/80 then increase strength till 20, then dex 36, but am still going to finish off all rogue talents first, then after that will get all dual weapon skills n assasin with some duelist mixed in for good measure, but don't know if stealing or coercion should be next after lock-picking n last combat training skill, what would you suggest?



King chris



ps have managed to open every door n chest apart from 1 in ostagar where the tranquill is/was.

[kevinwastaken]

Kalcalan wrote...

It's not the loot (mostly useless) it's all the XP you get by unlocking those safes.

That's a good point, I forgot about that. It's the same reason I have Leliana disarm every trap she sees.

I also understand the completionist argument, as I'm usually pretty anal about making sure ever single item is looted in an RPG. That said, a lot of the loot in DAO is a slap in the face, e.g. when you unlock a chest to find a single elf root. It's maddening!