1256 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

akenn312 wrote...
Giving? No you are forcing options on him there is a huge difference.

I am forcing him to be able to walk without breaking a leg? Can you see why I don't find that argument compelling?

Exactly "where do you sign up" you make a choice to want to be genetically perfect but it is wrong to force that on someone else. That why Miranda's father was a monster, she was not grateful of the gifts he forced upon her she tolerated them and used them because she did not have a choice, her main problem with them and her jealousy with Shepard was she could never totally believe her gifts where of her own actions of her genetics. Maybe now you can see where i'm going with this. Look past the easy advantages part and see freedom of choice is the important thing here.

Well, I always disagreed with Miranda on this particular aspect.

I you want to take steroids and become stronger go right ahead. I have every right to not take them and become stronger on my own merits. You had no right to pump steroids into everyone else because you think it would be good for them.

What? I can't use the vaccine analogy but you can use steroids?

[General User]

Optimystic_X wrote...

General User wrote...

Fourth option - While Synthesis makes our bodies "better" it also makes our ailments "worse."  Resulting in zero net change.

What it does to our bodies is actually irrelevant. Our minds are the important thing, because with sufficient brainpower we (a) can modify our bodies ourselves, and ( don't need to rely on AI to do our thinking for us.

We can do (a) already and we don't need to do ( at all.

Modifié par General User, 12 juin 2012 - 12:09 .

[Nightwriter]

The endgame choice of Mass Effect 3 is not worthy of debate.

[clennon8]

His steroid analogy actually was a lot more apt than the vaccine analogy was.

[Sisterofshane]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

How does that stop a synthetic/organic conflict then?

If it doesn't somehow "level the playing field", then it is useless.

Simple - AI is created to think for us, not to move heavy boxes for us. Synthetics are good at the latter too, obviously, but you don't need to go beyond VIs or even less complicated programs for that.

That is the source of the danger. Organics, through laziness, greed and hate, create AIs to get an edge over other organics (who cannot hope to keep up.) AIs, being both smarter and infinitely more patient, will eventually break free - or be destroyed trying. Note that these are both purely mental traits.

The Geth weren't created to "think" for the Quarians - they were created as a cheap source of manual labor.  The fact that they were designed to become more intelligent was a part of the fact that the Quarians needed them to do increasingly more complex tasks.  Therefore, simply eliminating the need for a faster-processing being to complete a job does not necessarily mean that AI will never be created.

What Synthesis would need to do in order to make any difference would be to put on organic on par with a synthetic MENTALL AND PHYSICALLY, or else it is just useless.

[Taboo]

The ONLY thing that can make it worse for Synthesis fans is if Bioware actually decides it mixes DNA.

I will not be able to contain myself if that happens.

Miranda is very hurt because she is that way. You support something that causes her pain? Why would you do that?

Is a person not worthwhile without the upgrades? I think Miranda is worthwhile as a person, why don't you?

[silentassassin264]

I chose synthesis because it was the one straight ahead. I turned from the Catalyst and ran as fast as my crippled Shep could make it and then dived in knowing that I would become a god and recreate life in my own image. Felt so good. No regrets whatsoever.

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Miranda is very hurt because she is that way. You support something that causes her pain? Why would you do that?
Is a person not worthwhile without the upgrades? I think Miranda is worthwhile as a person, why don't you?

If I didn't think Miranda had an amazing personality, she wouldn't be my favorite character.
However, I also think having perfect genes it's not something to lament over and she might agree if her father hadn't abused her as a child.

[jtav]

Miranda's problem was that her father was abusive. Oriana is just as gifted, and has no such psychological scars because she had a loving family.

As for steroids, there are serious health risks not present here.

[PsyrenY]

Sisterofshane wrote...

The Geth weren't created to "think" for the Quarians - they were created as a cheap source of manual labor.  The fact that they were designed to become more intelligent was a part of the fact that the Quarians needed them to do increasingly more complex tasks.  Therefore, simply eliminating the need for a faster-processing being to complete a job does not necessarily mean that AI will never be created.

Ah, but it does mean that the Quarians won't be so lazy that they rely on their creations to self-optimize. Or even if they do still allow that functionality, they'll be able to keep pace with them mentally.

[PsyrenY]

General User wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

What it does to our bodies is actually irrelevant. Our minds are the important thing, because with sufficient brainpower we (a) can modify our bodies ourselves, and ( don't need to rely on AI to do our thinking for us.

We can do (a) already and we don't need to do ( at all.

(a) It's not a matter of "being able to do it already." We'd be better at it if we were smarter.
( Of course we do. As long as organics are dumber than AI (which is always, without synthesis) they will pursue AI research.

[Taboo]

It doesn't matter. She hates the way she is. If she can be unhappy, so can others. That's the issue.

He didn't allow her to have friends or a social life, that happens today. The gene therapy is just an icing on the cake.

Remember how she says how Shepard was born great? She doesn't like the idea that she has to made to be perfect.

Because you cannot be perfect.

[Sisterofshane]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The Geth weren't created to "think" for the Quarians - they were created as a cheap source of manual labor.  The fact that they were designed to become more intelligent was a part of the fact that the Quarians needed them to do increasingly more complex tasks.  Therefore, simply eliminating the need for a faster-processing being to complete a job does not necessarily mean that AI will never be created.

Ah, but it does mean that the Quarians won't be so lazy that they rely on their creations to self-optimize. Or even if they do still allow that functionality, they'll be able to keep pace with them mentally.

No, because being smarter does not autmoatically equal being less lazy. That's a personailty trait, and can be independent of intelligence.  Someone can still come along and decide they don't want to put the time into optimizing their machines, and then we are back in the same mess - and at that point we may be able to match them intellectually, but physically they will still hold the advantage.

The truth of the matter is that we either fundamentally change organics AND synthetics (how that works I have no idea), or it doesn't matter.

[Taboo]

The lack of control is what bothers Miranda. People should be allowed to grow and prosper without interference and that includes Synthesis.

[akenn312]

MisterJB wrote...
I am forcing him to be able to walk without breaking a leg? Can you see why I don't find that argument compelling? 

It still does not matter, there are consequences with every choice, no matter how much you think this will be a benefit to a person you cannot just change them without giving them the freedom to choose to let you do it. I might have a radical cure to cancer with all the statistics and data to back it up, but I still need to have a persons consent before I subject them to whatever trials or experiments that will affect their life in the future. If a person does not want this procedure I cannot subject them to it. No matter if the benefits are positive. This goes back to again the important need for people to give content to medical trials or experiments. Freedom of choice is more important and one of the greatest rights we all have.

MisterJB wrote...Well, I always disagreed with Miranda on this particular aspect.

Just because you disagree does not give you the right to force Oriana to become genetically perfect now or Miranda. Miranda has told you her stance on this. How can you go back and change her to what you think is better? She is not a toy to be changed whenever you want. Again If you love what Miranda is as she is right now. How can you even feel good by again changing her against her will or knowledge? 

If you consider Miranda good as is. then why are you merging her with synthetics? Her perfection is not enough now? You need a better Miranda? Blasphemy!

MisterJB wrote...
What? I can't use the vaccine analogy but you can use steroids?

You can use the vaccine point but the steroid and Implant points center on choice and not giving people the right to decide how they want to be using steroids they change you physically &  getting implants changes you cosmetically without your consent , getting a vaccine...  well basically you have consented to that even if you do it to your child you know what a vaccine will do. It wont cause some DNA change we know that. 

Why do you avoid the consent part of this? No matter what procedure we both put out there. Consent and choice is the main issue. Why do you feel it's okay force your ideals and to mess with everyones DNA? 

Modifié par akenn312, 12 juin 2012 - 12:54 .

[jtav]

Um, Ori is genetically identical to Miranda. The difference is upbringing. And Synthesis might actually help with her inferiority complex by raising everyone to her level.

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Um, Ori is genetically identical to Miranda. The difference is upbringing. And Synthesis might actually help with her inferiority complex by raising everyone to her level.

It doesn't matter. She is the way she is. You have no right to change that. Miranda is perfect the way she is, flaws and all. As is every other human, turian, krogan, salarian and yahg.

She hates her father because he imposed his will on her, making her into something he wanted. You do the same with Synthesis, right down to the genetic part.

Unethical.

[Sisterofshane]

jtav wrote...

Um, Ori is genetically identical to Miranda. The difference is upbringing. And Synthesis might actually help with her inferiority complex by raising everyone to her level.

The difference in upbringing is also being brought up in ignorance of her creation.  She never questions her place in life because she doesn't know that she was made.

And Miranda doesn't have an inferiority complex.  What she has is a feeling of lacking control over her life.  Imposing that same lack of control on everyone else is not going to make her feel better.  If anything, I would see her bringing into question her decision to try to take control over her life, if she never really had control in the first place.

[Taboo]

All people are perfect the way they are. There is no need to change for anyone.

Furthermore they are equals. No one is above another.

[clennon8]

It's obvious that the issue with the Synthesists is not that they don't understand the moral implications.  It's that they don't care.  They think they know what is best for everyone, and they will impose their will on all life in the galaxy.  Just like the Reapers. 

We're done here.  Or at least I am.

[MisterJB]

akenn312 wrote...
Why do you avoid the consent part of this? No matter what procedure we both put out there. Consent and choice is the main issue. Why do you feel it's okay force your ideals and to mess with everyones DNA? 

Because I don't care about their consent! How can I make that more obvious?
If someone has cancer and I have the cure, then that person should be cured. If that person does not wish to be cured of cancer, clearly that person is either not thinking correctly or is just plain stupid and its opinions should not be taken into account. It is for that person's good!
Should I allow you to kill yourself because you want to rather than help you? Of course not!

[me308f1cd5c]

It is evil to force Synthesis on people without their consent. Only a monster would do something like that. And though the monster may see what he did as good....it doesn't make it so.

[Taboo]

MisterJB wrote...

akenn312 wrote...
Why do you avoid the consent part of this? No matter what procedure we both put out there. Consent and choice is the main issue. Why do you feel it's okay force your ideals and to mess with everyones DNA? 

Because I don't care about their consent! How can I make that more obvious?
If someone has cancer and I have the cure, then that person should be cured. If that person does not wish to be cured of cancer, clearly that person is either not thinking correctly or is just plain stupid and its opinions should not be taken into account. It is for that person's good!
Should I allow you to kill yourself because you want to rather than help you? Of course not!

You have no right. Ever. If they wish to die it is their wish.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 12 juin 2012 - 01:15 .

[MisterJB]

Taboo-XX wrote...

All people are perfect the way they are. There is no need to change for anyone.

That is just plain wrong. There are people out there who were born with horrible, crippling diseases that prevent them from enjoying the simplest things in life.
Would you tell them they are perfect the way they are? That they don't need to change?

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 juin 2012 - 01:16 .

[me308f1cd5c]

MisterJB wrote...

akenn312 wrote...
Why do you avoid the consent part of this? No matter what procedure we both put out there. Consent and choice is the main issue. Why do you feel it's okay force your ideals and to mess with everyones DNA? 

Because I don't care about their consent! How can I make that more obvious?
If someone has cancer and I have the cure, then that person should be cured. If that person does not wish to be cured of cancer, clearly that person is either not thinking correctly or is just plain stupid and its opinions should not be taken into account. It is for that person's good!
Should I allow you to kill yourself because you want to rather than help you? Of course not!

If in the future mechanical body parts were made, that were superior to human parts, and if put on a human, could for sure cause said person to live longer, would you do it to people regardless of their opinions?  Though just because making people cyborgs could make them live longer, doesn't mean it should be forced on people.  If a man has a frail/weak body without any artifical attachments, he should be allowed to keep his body in the state it is in, even if doing so will cause him to die before the cyborgs would.

Modifié par me308f1cd5c, 12 juin 2012 - 01:21 .