1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Xellith]

jtav wrote...

So Synthesis must make it possible for organics to keep up with synthetics.

What organics?  They dont exist anymore.  GJ. 

[General User]

Optimystic_X wrote...

General User wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

What it does to our bodies is actually irrelevant. Our minds are the important thing, because with sufficient brainpower we (a) can modify our bodies ourselves, and ( don't need to rely on AI to do our thinking for us.

We can do (a) already and we don't need to do ( at all.

(a) It's not a matter of "being able to do it already." We'd be better at it if we were smarter.

We'd be better at alot of things if we were smarter.  But Synthesis doesn't make us smarter.  It puts life into "a new framework."  It changes how we relate to each other.

Optimystic_X wrote...
( Of course we do. As long as organics are dumber than AI (which is always, without synthesis) they will pursue AI research.

Not true.  Every AI in the game, the Catalyst included, is constantly looking to Shepard.

That's one of the major problems with Synthesis: it's not a partnership of equals.  On a mental level, organics are so far above and beyond synthetics that the synthetics simply aren't capable of contributing anything of serious worth.

Modifié par General User, 12 juin 2012 - 11:34 .

[KingZayd]

General User wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

General User wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

What it does to our bodies is actually irrelevant. Our minds are the important thing, because with sufficient brainpower we (a) can modify our bodies ourselves, and ( don't need to rely on AI to do our thinking for us.

We can do (a) already and we don't need to do ( at all.

(a) It's not a matter of "being able to do it already." We'd be better at it if we were smarter.

We'd be better at alot of things if we were smarter.  But Synthesis doesn't make us smarter.  It puts life into "a new framework."  It changes how we relate to each other.

Optimystic_X wrote...
( Of course we do. As long as organics are dumber than AI (which is always, without synthesis) they will pursue AI research.

Not true.  Every AI in the game, the Catalyst included, is constantly looking to Shepard.

That's one of the major problems with Synthesis: it's not a partnership of equals.  On a mental level, organics are so far above and beyond synthetics that the synthetics simply aren't capable of contributing anything of serious worth.

Actually based on what we've seen, it's not that organics are "far above and beyond", it's that they think differently.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
Also i don't think they put any thought into developing any ending consequences. They just threw them out there to generate speculation, which is what has occurred. No doubt they will try and explain a positive interpretation in EC but unless they can explain away dichotomy of good interpretation of synthesis not stopping the generation of new AI's they will be pushing a boulder uphill as far as i'm concerned.

Several threads have tried to explain how Synthesis is a solution. This one, for instance (see several of jtav's posts), and this one. 

[General User]

I disagree. Each and every organic can conceptualize and re-conceptualize the universe, and the place they and others fit within it in radical and revolutionary ways. We're capable of feats of imagination and creativity of a type and on a scale that synthetics just can't match. Synthetics can... do math fast. It's just not in the same league.

[Ieldra]

@General User:
Synthetics have better perception, more processing power, they can self-modify (see EDI), the geth have developed technology superior to the Council species, so they don't lack creativity and imagination. Legion is even good with philosophy. Synthetics are simply more versatile. They may lack certain emotions that bind organics together, but so far that hasn't prevented them from co-operating in much the same manner. So yeah, synthetics are superior. Their only downside is that they rely more on a technological infrastructure than organics.

And I haven't evens started on what will happen when the geth finish their Matrioshka brain.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juin 2012 - 11:55 .

[InHarmsWay]

Most supporters of synthesis seem to ignore the fact that the Catalyst outright says that synthesis will stagnate evolution (by making everything at the "apex"). So if you have an understanding of evolution you'd realize that would result in the total extinction of all life in the galaxy because it can no longer adapt or evolve.

Congratulations.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 12 juin 2012 - 11:57 .

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Synthetics have better perception,

That's a hardware issue.  You'd get roughly the same results with any number of technologies.  That's something organics and synthetics share, we create an use tools to compensate for our shortcomings.

Ieldra2 wrote...
more processing power,

The ability to process large mounts of data is largely irrelevant unless you can successfully and correctly interpret the information you are processsing.  It's in that interpretation process that organics leave synthetics hoplessly in the dust.

Ieldra2 wrote...
they can self-modify (see EDI).

So can we.  (see Shepard, Miranda, Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Thane, Samara, etc., etc.)

Ieldra2 wrote...
They are simply more versatile.

Not when it come to mental flexibility they aren't.  And the physical limitations organics face can (and have) been overcome by tools and technology.

Ieldra2 wrote...
They may lack certain emotions that bind organics together, but so far that hasn't prevented them from co-operating in much the same manner.

Emotion, imagination, they lack alot.

Ieldra2 wrote...
So yeah, synthetics are superior.

Only if your standard of superiority is the ability to do arithmetic or move heavy boxes without a forklift.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Their only downside is that they rely more on a technological infrastructure than organics.

That's not even a real downside.  Of course they rely on technology more, just as we rely more on biology more.

Ieldra2 wrote...
And I haven't evens started on what will happen when the geth finish their Matrioshka brain.

That's their business, they can do as they please.

Modifié par General User, 12 juin 2012 - 12:11 .

[Ieldra]

@InHarmsWay:
Most Synthesis supportes dismiss that claim as bad writing. Because there is no such thing as an apex of evolution, and evolution doesn't have a direction.

That Bioware chose to use the most ignorant tropes about evolution (Goal-oriented Evolution, Evolutionary Levels, Ultimate Life Forms), doesn't mean we have to buy that bullsh*t.

Things become different if you guide evolution. Then it's artificial evolution, which can be goal-oriented, but you can't use that to justify things since the goals of anyone's artificial evolution are arbitrary.

So.....I just dismiss this claim. The closest I can come is "A step forward on some scale of artificial evolution".

[lillitheris]

It’s much easier to defend Synthesis when you just invent your own story rather than sticking to the one given by the game.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...
Also i don't think they put any thought into developing any ending consequences. They just threw them out there to generate speculation, which is what has occurred. No doubt they will try and explain a positive interpretation in EC but unless they can explain away dichotomy of good interpretation of synthesis not stopping the generation of new AI's they will be pushing a boulder uphill as far as i'm concerned.

Several threads have tried to explain how Synthesis is a solution. This one, for instance (see several of jtav's posts), and this one. 

I've read plenty of attempts to explain it and don't find them particularly believable. If the central argument that AI's will surpass organic life and wipe it out is viewed as gospel(which i think is BS) The only 2 options is see are a) you limit these new lifeforms so they are not capable or inclined to create new AI's or b)you remove so much that is inherent in organic life in order to raise them up to a level that they won't be surpassed that they are no longer in any way recognisable. Neither is appealing to me and neither is the idea of the reapers watching over the experiment ready to clean the board if things don't go according to plan.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

jtav wrote...
Let's see, biotic powers, super strength, enhanced agility? Yeah, sign me up as long as I can keep my mind.

You don’t get to keep your mind.

Says who? There is not a shred of evidence that you'll be mind-controlled or mentally reprogrammed or anything of the kind. That's just another one of those baseless assumptions people make up to justify their visceral aversion.

I’m sorry, weren’t you just arguing that your version of synthesis is something that we can’t comprehend in our current form? That, obviously, means that the end product of the synthesis is no longer the same person. They could be better (or worse), or they could just be made think they’re better, but the conclusion is inevitable.

Either way, the burden of proof is on you to show how introducing an entirely new biological existence — all this new stuff has to integrate with the body somehow — would not in any way affect the mind.

[Ieldra]

General User wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Synthetics have better perception,

That's a hardware issue.  You'd get roughly the same results with any number of technologies.  That's something organics and synthetics share, we create an use tools to compensate for our shortcomings.

Except that synthetics have that technology integrated more naturally than organics.

Ieldra2 wrote...
more processing power,

The ability to process large mounts of data is largely irrelevant unless you can successfully and correctly interpret the information you are processsing.  It's in that interpretation process that organics leave synthetics hoplessly in the dust.

Uh....the geth create technology more advanced than all organic species in....300 years? I see a lot of creativity here. Legion is good with philosophy. Philosophy is interpretation the world and your place in the universe. EDI comes along nicely.

Ieldra2 wrote...
they can self-modify (see EDI).

So can we.  (see Shepard, Miranda, Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Thane, Samara, etc., etc.)

Unlike EDI, organics cannot modify their brain processes just by thinking about it.

Ieldra2 wrote...
They are simply more versatile.

Not when it come to mental flexibility they aren't.  And the physical limitations organics face can (and have) been overcome by tools and technology.

....while synthetics, who don't have that limitation, use their resources to build themselves up into a super-intelligence.

Ieldra2 wrote...
And I haven't evens started on what will happen when the geth finish their Matrioshka brain.

That's their business, they can do as they please.

...after which they will surpass organics so much that they'll become practically godlike. Recall EDI when she links to the geth consensus? "A mind the size of a galactic arm"? That's just the very small start.

[KingZayd]

If you're saying synthetics are better, then can't you see you're forcing inferior organic parts onto the Geth and other synthetics?

[NedPepper]

lillitheris wrote...

It’s much easier to defend Synthesis when you just invent your own story rather than sticking to the one given by the game.

To be honest, you can say that for all three endings....

[Aurora313]

I saw Synthesis as Legion's ending. Legion gave his 'life' to give an upgrade his people and turn them into a truly sentient race. In Synthesis, Shepard theorhetically sacrifices his own bio and nano-technology to do the give the same to the rest of the galaxy. I'm not saying it's ethical to enforce that kind of change in the galaxy, but no matter what choice Shepard makes in the end, he's screwing over galactic civilization anyway. If there is a chance that he could somehow pull something that could be seen as 'positive' or 'benifical' out of the situation, he would do it. Sure, some people would hail him as a new Messiah-like figure, others would hate and curse him for all eternity, but it's a risk my Shepard is willing to take if the people of the galaxy are allowed to continue to live without the Reaper threat.

Like Jtav, I have read the Retribution book (actually, I listened to the audiobook. Same difference). Paul Grayson was turned into an Avatar of the Reapers and it twisted his body into something physically grotesque, yes, but you can't deny that what Grayson obtained (though he was not in control) was benefical to him as well. Enhanced muscles, reflexes, agility, inteligence, biotic abilities where he used to have none, and the ability to analysis and disect information in a matter of seconds. Granted, the methods that Cerberus used to implant that tech was gruesome and turtorous, you can't deny that the physical benefits are very impressive.

I don't see it as submission to a superior race but mutual understanding, cooperation. A Genesis of a new age. Synthesis sets the Reapers free from the cycle, it sets everyone free. And to be perfectly frank, while I would miss my baby blue eyes, I wouldn't mind getting a bit of glowy ink and contact lenses if it meant I could have all the abilities I mentioned before.

Modifié par Aurora313, 12 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[InHarmsWay]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@InHarmsWay:
Most Synthesis supportes dismiss that claim as bad writing. Because there is no such thing as an apex of evolution, and evolution doesn't have a direction.

That Bioware chose to use the most ignorant tropes about evolution (Goal-oriented Evolution, Evolutionary Levels, Ultimate Life Forms), doesn't mean we have to buy that bullsh*t.

Things become different if you guide evolution. Then it's artificial evolution, which can be goal-oriented, but you can't use that to justify things since the goals of anyone's artificial evolution are arbitrary.

So.....I just dismiss this claim. The closest I can come is "A step forward on some scale of artificial evolution".

If you don't believe that then why believe that there will be peace? Does synthesis somehow stop all life from creating synthetics? If so how? If so, how is it different than facism where you are unable to create? How does being part syntehtic stop any future wars with any future synthetics? Does being human stop people from being racist against other people of skin colour?

Synthesis does not solve any problem. Synthetics will be created again and there is nothing to stop them from being oppressed. If anything it will be worse because everyone believes that they are the most superior lifeform in the galaxy. This actually might even cause more wars between the races as they fight over who is the most superiror lifeform.

The solution to the problem of synthetics does not come from making everyone and everything half and half. It stems from mentality. This is shown by Shepard's character throughout the trilogy. You start off in ME1 killing any synthetics that lay within your path. In ME2 you decide to sate your curiousity and risk reactivating Legion. You learn that synthetics are that much different than from organics and by ME3 you see synthetics as people and even go as far as to encourage a romantic relationship between EDI and Joker.

All synthesis does is nonconsentually violate everyone in the galaxy and irreparably changes them.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 12 juin 2012 - 12:43 .

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...
Either way, the burden of proof is on you to show how introducing an entirely new biological existence — all this new stuff has to integrate with the body somehow — would not in any way affect the mind.

I don't need to prove anything more than you do. We are writing the consequences remember? If you think my version is implausible then tell me why you think so.

What will happen is that perspectives will change. That will, of course, influence the way people are thinking. But it's neither mind control nor mental programming. People start out with the same way of thinking, the same tastes, the same imagination - or lack of it - the same preferenes as they had before. And actually, since at least in my interpretation, only the tools for self-modification are provided, plus the mental networking you can use or not, you can stick to your old existence if you want. Not that I understand how anyone would want to, but you could. Just ignore all the new stuff.

As for that "entirely new biological existence", there are rather different ways you can interpret that. My interpretation simply gives individuals more options. They don't need to use them. The more unpleasant interpretations inevitably come from Synthesis detractors. Sorry if I don't put any credence in their claims.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juin 2012 - 12:36 .

[The Night Mammoth]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

[quote]General User wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
Synthetics have better perception, [/quote]That's a hardware issue.  You'd get roughly the same results with any number of technologies.  That's something organics and synthetics share, we create an use tools to compensate for our shortcomings.[/quote]
Except that synthetics have that technology integrated more naturally than organics. [/quote]

Irrelevant. The technology can be 'integrated' much the same. 

[quote][quote][quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
more processing power,[/quote]The ability to process large mounts of data is largely irrelevant unless you can successfully and correctly interpret the information you are processsing.  It's in that interpretation process that organics leave synthetics hoplessly in the dust.[/quote]
Uh....the geth create technology more advanced than all organic species in....300 years? I see a lot of creativity here. [/quote]

That's all conjecture, to be honest. I see nothing except their Dyson Sphere that points to the Geth being far and above all othe organics life you would have us believe. 

[quote]Legion is good with philosophy. Philosophy is interpretation the world and your place in the universe. [/quote]

The Geth consensus has one singular belief shaped by its experience with the Quarians. Legion simply 'knows' this belief, it didn't think about it or reason the point.

[quote]EDI comes along nicely. [/quote]

Because Joker, EDI, and the crew of the Normandy, help her to. Without their influence she would never have reached the stage she did by the end of ME3. Organics learn creativity and emotion naturally very early on, synthetics evidently must be taught it or artifically learn in well after their creation, it is not an intrinsic part of their existence. 

[quote][quote][quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
they can self-modify (see EDI). [/quote]So can we.  (see Shepard, Miranda, Ashley, Garrus, Jacob, Thane, Samara, etc., etc.)[/quote]
Unlike EDI, organics cannot modify their brain processes just by thinking about it. [/quote]

Yes....... we can...... by thinking.... that's how we mentally evolve. 



[quote][quote][quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
They are simply more versatile. [/quote]Not when it come to mental flexibility they aren't.  And the physical limitations organics face can (and have) been overcome by tools and technology.[/quote]
....while synthetics, who don't have that limitation, use their resources to build themselves up into a super-intelligence.[/quote]

Potentially. Theoretically. Nothing organics cant achieve though. 

[quote][quote][quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
And I haven't evens started on what will happen when the geth finish their Matrioshka brain.[/quote]That's their business, they can do as they please.[/quote]
...after which they will surpass organics so much that they'll become practically godlike. Recall EDI when she links to the geth consensus? "A mind the size of a galactic arm"? That's just the very small start.


[/quote]

So?

Let them, I couldn't care less. The Geth are no threat to anyone, neither are other synthetics. Maybe they will become vastly superior, but that's just assumtive reasoning with little basis in fact, and it certainly has nothing to do with a possible extinction scenario, because that ventures into the realm of crack-pot theory. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that synthetics have that technology integrated more naturally than organics.

That synthetics can use technology easier is only natural, they ARE technology!  And, in much the same vein, organics are simply far and away more adept at emotional/imaginative/creative/etc. affairs.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Uh....the geth create technology more advanced than all organic species in....300 years? I see a lot of creativity here.

Not  "advanced" enough it would seem, Alliance (and Migrant Fleet) technology blew the geth away.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Legion is good with philosophy. Philosophy is interpretation the world and your place in the universe.

And Legion operates at a simple, childlike level.

Ieldra2 wrote...
EDI comes along nicely.

EDI is neither Reaper, nor geth.  She is a machine built in the mental and physical image of a human being.  As she is the most human-like synthetic, it is only natural that she should be mentally superior to the other synthetics.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Unlike EDI, organics cannot modify their brain processes just by thinking about it.
 

No they can't.   Can they?  They have to actually exert time/money/effort to improve themselves.   A more difficult way perhaps, but not a worse one.  Not every robot will have a personal Shepard to keep them on the straight and narrow you know.

Ieldra2 wrote...
....while synthetics, who don't have that limitation, use their resources to build themselves up into a super-intelligence.

That's just it!  Synthetics can become as "super-intelligent" as they like, but they will always lag behind or be completely unable to grasp aspects of existence and concepts that organics master as a matter of course.

Ieldra2 wrote...
...after which they will surpass organics so much that they'll become practically godlike. Recall EDI when she links to the geth consensus? "A mind the size of a galactic arm"? That's just the very small start.

Thank you for proving my point.  Despite exhaustive investigation, that "mind the size of a galactic arm" did not understand basic concepts that Shepard understood nigh instinctively.

[InHarmsWay]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

EDI comes along nicely.

Because Joker, EDI, and the crew of the Normandy, help her to. Without their influence she would never have reached the stage she did by the end of ME3. Organics learn creativity and emotion naturally very early on, synthetics evidently must be taught it. 

She even explicitly said this.

"It was Joker who gave me free will, but it was you who made me feel truly alive." -EDI to Shepard, paraphrase

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 12 juin 2012 - 01:00 .

[jtav]

And from a strictly metagame perspective, the point where you unlock Synthesis is also the point where the green bar is filled and you get the best text describing preparedness. It ought to look like it. The writing is a colossal mess, but the tone of the end is hopeful. I'm trying to work with the writers here.

And as Auora said, whatever I do I trash the galaxy. If I can help make that more bearable, I will.

[Ieldra]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@InHarmsWay:
Most Synthesis supportes dismiss that claim as bad writing. Because there is no such thing as an apex of evolution, and evolution doesn't have a direction.

That Bioware chose to use the most ignorant tropes about evolution (Goal-oriented Evolution, Evolutionary Levels, Ultimate Life Forms), doesn't mean we have to buy that bullsh*t.

Things become different if you guide evolution. Then it's artificial evolution, which can be goal-oriented, but you can't use that to justify things since the goals of anyone's artificial evolution are arbitrary.

So.....I just dismiss this claim. The closest I can come is "A step forward on some scale of artificial evolution".

If you don't believe that then why believe that there will be peace? Does synthesis somehow stop all life from creating synthetics? If so how? If so, how is it different than facism where you are unable to create? How does being part syntehtic stop any future wars with any future synthetics? Does being human stop people from being racist against other people of skin colour?

There will be increased unterstanding since both sides have acquired traits from the other. But there will be no permanent peace. Pure synthetics of the old form can still be created, though the incentive to do so will be less, and they'll be as much of an anomaly as humans without empathy are in the real world. There will still be conflicts between organic-origin and synthetic-origin life. The difference is that after Synthesis, organic-origin life will be able to keep up and will not become extinct. 

The solution to the problem of synthetics does not come from making everyone and everything half and half. It stems from mentality. This is shown by Shepard's character throughout the trilogy. You start off in ME1 killing any synthetics that lay within your path. In ME2 you decide to sate your curiousity and risk reactivating Legion. You learn that synthetics are that much different than from organics and by ME3 you see synthetics as people and even go as far as to encourage a romantic relationship between EDI and Joker.

The synthetics we see in the games aren't the problem. The problem are the synthetics that will emerge from the geth consensus after their Matrioshka brain has been finished. Those will be godlike compared to organic life and may remove it without even being consciously aware of it, in a similar way humans habitually cause the extinction of species just by expanding across the face of the Earth. At least that's the root of the singularity interpretation. You may or may not believe in it, but it works as a premise.

[The Night Mammoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The synthetics we see in the games aren't the problem. The problem are the synthetics that will emerge from the geth consensus after their Matrioshka brain has been finished. Those will be godlike compared to organic life and may remove it without even being consciously aware of it, in a similar way humans habitually cause the extinction of species just by expanding across the face of the Earth. At least that's the root of the singularity interpretation. You may or may not believe in it, but it works as a premise.

That's all conjecture. 

[Aurora313]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The synthetics we see in the games aren't the problem. The problem are the synthetics that will emerge from the geth consensus after their Matrioshka brain has been finished. Those will be godlike compared to organic life and may remove it without even being consciously aware of it, in a similar way humans habitually cause the extinction of species just by expanding across the face of the Earth. At least that's the root of the singularity interpretation. You may or may not believe in it, but it works as a premise.

That's all conjecture. 

So is believing that Synthesis turns everyone into Grayson-like husks when the cutscene clearly shows that isn't the case.

Modifié par Aurora313, 12 juin 2012 - 01:12 .