1256 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

Aurora313 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The synthetics we see in the games aren't the problem. The problem are the synthetics that will emerge from the geth consensus after their Matrioshka brain has been finished. Those will be godlike compared to organic life and may remove it without even being consciously aware of it, in a similar way humans habitually cause the extinction of species just by expanding across the face of the Earth. At least that's the root of the singularity interpretation. You may or may not believe in it, but it works as a premise.

That's all conjecture. 

So is believing that Synthesis turns everyone into Grayson-like husks when the cutscene clearly shows that isn't the case.

Yes, that would be. 

Any reason to quote me? 

I haven't said a thing about the possible implications of synthesis. At most, any negative comments have been specifically about how you impose the will of one on the entirety of life on the words of the enemy, without even knowing the very basics of what happens. 

[InHarmsWay]

Ieldra2 wrote...


There will be increased unterstanding since both sides have acquired traits from the other.

Really? Understanding? Each and every human is only different by 0.01%. And yet despite that, we have wars and violent conflicts over skin colour and ideology. We are all pratically the exact same on the genetic/biological scale yet we have had thousands of wars on our differences.

Ieldra2 wrote...

But there will be no permanent peace. Pure synthetics of the old form can still be created, though the incentive to do so will be less, and they'll be as much of an anomaly as humans without empathy are in the real world.

How is there less incentive? Again I have to ask how does making everything half and half make any less incentive from creating? The quarians weren't trying to make a synthetic race of people. They were making tools. These tools became more and more advance until they were a labour force of machines. These machines slowly became more and more advance until they started asking questions about their existance. The quarians didn't mean for this to happen. They didn't want for this to happen. It happen because of gradual developement.

Ieldra2 wrote...

There will still be conflicts between organic-origin and synthetic-origin life. The difference is that after Synthesis, organic-origin life will be able to keep up and will not become extinct. 

I still don't really see how this will happen without basically killing the person that once was and making them think like a computer.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 12 juin 2012 - 01:19 .

[Aurora313]

@The Night Mammoth


Apologies, didn't mean to offend.

Modifié par Aurora313, 12 juin 2012 - 01:20 .

[Apocaleepse360]

Zardoc wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Glad to see taboo has already got this one. No need to waste my time.

Ah, thank you for providing an example of the self rigtheousness that pollutes most of Destroyers.

You mean just like the Controllers and Synths? 

The funny thing is, I don't see much of those people. There may be one or two, but the two combined don't have as many as destroyers do.

Just let people make their own choices for crying out loud, people. It's not like they're controlling your save to do the same. Stop making threads about it. Jeez.

[DirtySHISN0]

People have wasted away trying to make sense of the endings.

I chose synthesis to.
Shepard dies so that my squadmates and all of the allies i have gathered survive. Fair trade.


Until the endings make more sense, there will be no sense to be found in explaining choices regarding them.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 12 juin 2012 - 01:25 .

[Aurora313]

My basic reason:
Galaxy is gonna end up in the crapper no matter what I do, if I can give everyone an edge to help 'em rebuild. I will.

[The Night Mammoth]

Aurora313 wrote...

@The Night Mammoth


Apologies, didn't mean to offend.

None taken, although it might look that way. 

I have nothing really against synthesis as a positive option, but it's not the one I would take when standing in front of the Catalyst. 

[Aurora313]

True enough, if a third party offered the concept, I'd probably accept the option more. Not saying I'm don't a face turn heel on the option, but it would have been more attractive if there were more foreshadowing.

Modifié par Aurora313, 12 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[mass perfection]

Synthesis is a valid choice even though you're forcing it on everyone.

[antares_sublight]

Synthesis is, according to BioWare, a "winning" ending. But it is INDEFENSIBLE. Trying to defend it with post-choice rationalizations and theories of what pure awesomeness you've just inflicted on EVERY LIFE FORM in the entire galaxy is pointless. Each and every single defense by the Pro-Synthites requires massive amounts of simultaneous fanfiction and ignoring in-game canon.

Synthesis is a nonsensical, indefensible, incredibly stupid thing. Trying to defend it as if it's something intrinsic to your real-life personality is bizarre.

You're free to choose it and even prefer it, but you simply cannot defend it.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 12 juin 2012 - 01:34 .

[mass perfection]

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis is, according to BioWare, a "winning" ending. But it is INDEFENSIBLE. Trying to defend it with post-choice rationalizations and theories of what pure awesomeness you've just inflicted on EVERY LIFE FORM in the entire galaxy is pointless. Each and every single defense by the Pro-Synthites requires massive amounts of simultaneous fanfiction and ignoring in-game canon.

Synthesis is a nonsensical, indefensible, incredibly stupid thing. Trying to defend it as if it's something intrinsic to your real-life personality is bizarre.

You're free to choose it and even prefer it, but you simply cannot defend it.

Especially since a lot of people here hate it without a doubt.I probably would have picked it only if the Catalyst said something about the technological singularity.It's almost certain it's talking about it,but it might just be preventing Terminator from happening.

[akenn312]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
Synthetics have better perception, more processing power, they can self-modify (see EDI), the geth have developed technology superior to the Council species, so they don't lack creativity and imagination. Legion is even good with philosophy. Synthetics are simply more versatile. They may lack certain emotions that bind organics together, but so far that hasn't prevented them from co-operating in much the same manner. So yeah, synthetics are superior. Their only downside is that they rely more on a technological infrastructure than organics.

And I haven't evens started on what will happen when the geth finish their Matrioshka brain.

You keep trying to argue the results outweigh consent or freedom of choice, this is wrong in so many ways. A tyrant may have a noble view if you romanticize it. But they still don't have the right to force it on the world. To force and mesh organics into something that you see fit is wrong, there is no doubt about it. Just because it's a video game you cannot make this concept cute.

I respect your head cannon results, but it doesn't mean you can grab everyone and squish them into something you desire. This is why diversity and individuality is important. You cannot change people without their knowledge this is just like gassing people for their own good. It's not the results, it's the choice that is the problem. 

I don't care what you can heal, give or ascend me too, I must always have the choice to accept it. You cannot force this upon me. You cannot say you know what is better for me, no one person can force their will upon another ever. 

Modifié par akenn312, 12 juin 2012 - 01:41 .

[Ieldra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The synthetics we see in the games aren't the problem. The problem are the synthetics that will emerge from the geth consensus after their Matrioshka brain has been finished. Those will be godlike compared to organic life and may remove it without even being consciously aware of it, in a similar way humans habitually cause the extinction of species just by expanding across the face of the Earth. At least that's the root of the singularity interpretation. You may or may not believe in it, but it works as a premise.

That's all conjecture.

Speculation informed by unpublished material, actually. And it makes sense. Rather more convincing than the hypothesis that Synthesis turns everyone into husks or similar nonsense where actual counterevidence exists.

[mass perfection]

akenn312 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@General User:
Synthetics have better perception, more processing power, they can self-modify (see EDI), the geth have developed technology superior to the Council species, so they don't lack creativity and imagination. Legion is even good with philosophy. Synthetics are simply more versatile. They may lack certain emotions that bind organics together, but so far that hasn't prevented them from co-operating in much the same manner. So yeah, synthetics are superior. Their only downside is that they rely more on a technological infrastructure than organics.

And I haven't evens started on what will happen when the geth finish their Matrioshka brain.

You keep trying to argue the results outweigh consent or freedom of choice, this is wrong in so many ways. A tyrant may have a noble view if you romanticize it. But they still don't have the right to force it on the world. To force and mesh organics into something that you see fit is wrong, there is no doubt about it. Just because it's a video game you cannot make this concept cute.

I respect your head cannon results, but it doesn't mean you can grab everyone and squish them into something you desire. This is why diversity and individuality is important. You cannot change people without their knowledge this is just like gassing people for their own good. It's not the results, it's the choice that is the problem. 

I don't care what you can heal, give or ascend me too, I must always have the choice to accept it. You cannot force this upon me. You cannot say you know what is better for me, no one person can force their will upon another ever. 

Agreed.If Shepard was going to choose Synthesis than he/she should contact dozens of powerful people and have their permission so they make it law that everyone has to become hybrids.

[The Night Mammoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The synthetics we see in the games aren't the problem. The problem are the synthetics that will emerge from the geth consensus after their Matrioshka brain has been finished. Those will be godlike compared to organic life and may remove it without even being consciously aware of it, in a similar way humans habitually cause the extinction of species just by expanding across the face of the Earth. At least that's the root of the singularity interpretation. You may or may not believe in it, but it works as a premise.

That's all conjecture.

Speculation informed by unpublished material, actually.

So conjecture, like I said. 

And it makes sense.

From a twisted, crack-pot theorist's perspective, sure.

It's so far-flung I don't know where to start. As I said before, it's a starggering leap of logic to believe that the possiblity for a the singularity to be proven means the inevitable extinction of all organic life. 

Rather more convincing than the hypothesis that Synthesis turns everyone into husks or similar nonsense where actual counterevidence exists.

That's an unrelated point, but thanks for sharing. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[antares_sublight]

leldra2 always forgets that, in the rush to stop pure synthetics from becoming "godlike", Synthesis simply makes hybrids be "godlike". Pure synthetics will still exist. Pure organics will still evolve. These pure organics will now face the same danger from a singularity, except it will be from the hybrids (at least).

leldra2's theories are perhaps the most harmful. The nanites proposed are simply parasites that act as puppetmasters to all life in the galaxy, forming and reforming lifeforms as they see fit to operate inside the framework of galactic life they choose. Pretty horrible future.

[Ieldra]

@akenn312:
We've been over that about 10000000000000 times. Shepard stands at the fulcrum of events. Shepard's choice will shape the galaxy for millenia to come, regardless of what you choose. If you choose Destroy, you kill the synthetics, and countless billions of conjoined organic minds who had been enslaved by the Catalyst. If you choose Control, you set yourself up as some kind of godlike guardian of life, guiding civilization along the same old paths until a new solution is found. Maybe forever. I happen to think that sacrificing everyone's organic purity is preferable to both other options, since it kills no one and still leaves the old paths behind, especially if it comes with benefits.

It's not as if I'm - as Shepard - sitting at a desk somewhere in peaceful times, thinking about pressing a button "synthesize everyone". Put yourself in Shepard's place - standing there, with everything you know about the Reapers. Suppose you know every Codex entry and did all conversations with Legion about the Reapers' nature. Well, maybe you'd come to the conclusion it's best to kill them all, but that's not how I think. jtav has explained it in her OP.

[Ieldra]

antares_sublight wrote...
leldra2's theories are perhaps the most harmful. The nanites proposed are simply parasites that act as puppetmasters to all life in the galaxy, forming and reforming lifeforms as they see fit to operate inside the framework of galactic life they choose. Pretty horrible future.

I would appreciate it if people stopped misrepresenting my scenario. There are no puppetmasters. And of course you'd say my scenario is harmful. Afraid it may come across as convincing, are you?

[jtav]

Exactly, Ieldra. If all those times I chose to stop squad members from killing people who ruined their life is to mean anything, I have to show mercy myself.

[Aurora313]

I'd actually prefer to follow Ieldra's theories of Synthesis. Morality be damned. In a matter of statistics, Synthesis saves the move lives. And despite what everyone things, it does not cause a genocide. As Jtav stated, the Reapers are as much a slave to everything as the organic victims of the cycle are. Synthesis is a way to set them free without causing what is a genocide onto itself. Like it or not, the Reapers are still a race.

And assuming the new hybrids turn into husk like creatures is completely idioitic, especially when there is visual evidence proving this assumption false.

Modifié par Aurora313, 12 juin 2012 - 02:10 .

[InHarmsWay]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you choose Destroy, you kill the synthetics, and countless billions of conjoined organic minds who had been enslaved by the Catalyst.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Hold the phone.

You're talking about the reapers right? You're perfectly fine with billions of enslaved minds, minds that were once people, staying in their hellish state?

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 12 juin 2012 - 02:10 .

[The Night Mammoth]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you choose Destroy, you kill the synthetics, and countless billions of conjoined organic minds who had been enslaved by the Catalyst.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Hold the phone.

You're talking about the reapers right? You're perfectly fine with billions of enslaved minds, minds that were once people, staying in their hellish state?

*snip*

I would rather kill the Reapers and put them out of their misery. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 juin 2012 - 02:11 .

[Aurora313]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you choose Destroy, you kill the synthetics, and countless billions of conjoined organic minds who had been enslaved by the Catalyst.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Hold the phone.

You're talking about the reapers right? You're perfectly fine with billions of enslaved minds, minds that were once people, staying in their hellish state?

It wasn't their choice to exist in that form. True. However, they have the right to choose whether or not to contiune to existance. If every or any of them choose not to, then they can choose to commit suicide, by setting a course into a sun or a blackhole. If they wish to attempt some form of cooperation with the Cycle races, perhaps as giant manual labours to rebuilt the relay network as one example, then they have the right to decide which path they will take.

Destroy them, and even as a slave race, its still a genocide.

Modifié par Aurora313, 12 juin 2012 - 02:14 .

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
leldra2's theories are perhaps the most harmful. The nanites proposed are simply parasites that act as puppetmasters to all life in the galaxy, forming and reforming lifeforms as they see fit to operate inside the framework of galactic life they choose. Pretty horrible future.

I would appreciate it if people stopped misrepresenting my scenario. There are no puppetmasters. And of course you'd say my scenario is harmful. Afraid it may come across as convincing, are you?

Lies. Your theory presents nanites that control the evolution of all species. You say that for intelligent species, the nanites allow them to purposefully adapt - self-driven evolution (except that it's only acceptable in the bounds of what is allowable in the galactic balance). For non-intelligent species, as you say, the nanites are controlling ther biological development. They are parasitic puppetmasters.

Your theory is laughable, feel free to buy super bowl ads.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 12 juin 2012 - 02:20 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Aurora313 wrote...

It wasn't their choice to exist in that form. True. However, they have the right to choose whether or not to contiune to existance. If every or any of them choose not to, then they can choose to commit suicide, by setting a course into a sun or a blackhole. If they wish to attempt some form of cooperation with the Cycle races, perhaps as giant manual labours to rebuilt the relay network as one example, then they have the right to decide which path they will take.

You assume they have free-will and sapience, you assume the Catalyst 'subjugates' and represses them. You assume they're capable of anything you just said. 

Destroy them, and even as a slave race, its still a genocide.

Good! They deserve to die, there's nothing of worth to keep.