1256 réponses à ce sujet

[antares_sublight]

jtav wrote...

Bodily sovereignty is important, but the right is not absolute. Granted, it would take extraordinary circumstances to justify it, but we have those. I'll let my belief in "thou shall not kill" override my desire to obtain consent.

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

LOL shaddup foo' ... you can't even find supporting evidence for your own claims if you were offered a free 1 grand, what to say of concepts that are not your own.

http://social.biowar...5041/3#12366487

Have a seat.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 juin 2012 - 04:23 .

[clennon8]

You have strawmanned that issue relentlessly, jtav, as have others. Not in your very last post, but on several other occasions. And it has happened many, many times in this thread. Seat belts, vaccines, forcing kids to go to school, etc. It's laughable. Simply laughable.

I honestly cannot imagine a more basic right than body sovereignty. To put it "somewhere in the middle" of your list simply boggles my mind, and speaks to how far apart the two sides of this argument are.

Modifié par clennon8, 12 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[clennon8]

antares_sublight wrote...

jtav wrote...

Bodily sovereignty is important, but the right is not absolute. Granted, it would take extraordinary circumstances to justify it, but we have those. I'll let my belief in "thou shall not kill" override my desire to obtain consent.

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

This is undoubtedly true, but I doubt the point will be acknowledged in a serious way.  Because super powers!

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I am not strawmanning. I am saying that sovereignty is somewhere in the middle of my list of priorities and not killing those geth or Reapers that now apparently have questionable responsibility for their actions trump that. As does doing something to take the sting off the relay destruction.

QFT. It bears repeating.

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

LOL shaddup foo' ... you can't even find supporting evidence for your own claims if you were offered a free 1 grand, what to say of concepts that are not your own.

http://social.biowar...5041/3#12366487

Have a seat.

I stand by what I said. Are you 10 years old? Your methods of defending synthesis resort to saying that people in power commonly make sweeping decisions for everyone under them depending on what they see as best. Your defense of Synthesis sounds just like Anakin talking about how a dictatorship would be a good thing.

[Axialbloom]

You are a Paragon, so you commit the most vile act ever in the history of the galaxy?

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I am not strawmanning. I am saying that sovereignty is somewhere in the middle of my list of priorities and not killing those geth or Reapers that now apparently have questionable responsibility for their actions trump that. As does doing something to take the sting off the relay destruction.

QFT. It bears repeating.

So, preserving:
"entities that have willingly killed countless across thousands of years and genuinely believe in what they are doing, but now have questionable responsibility"

is worth:
"fundamentally altering the very definition of all life in the entire galaxy in an unknown and unknowable way based on a couple of supportive sentences from the being that most definitely IS responsible for all those deaths".

[jtav]

I dispute the willing part. Essentially, the verdict has changed from "guilty" to "not guilty by reason of insanity." And we don't execute such people.

And the Catalyst is an exposition dump.

[Ieldra]

antares:
"Fundamentally altering the definition of life"? Eh......in which fictional universe are you living? Ah, I forgot. You create imaginary scenarios in order to better be able to attack Synthesis. Well, that doesn't happen. Not in your universe, because you don't choose Synthesis, and not in mine, because Synthesis doesn't do that here.

Adding synthetic symbionts to people doesn't even change basic organic biochemistry. Reproduction, digestion, everything works as before. A few things are added. And if you insist on a literal interpretation of an exposition that makes no sense, that doesn't help your case.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juin 2012 - 04:45 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

LOL shaddup foo' ... you can't even find supporting evidence for your own claims if you were offered a free 1 grand, what to say of concepts that are not your own.

http://social.biowar...5041/3#12366487

Have a seat.

I stand by what I said. Are you 10 years old? Your methods of defending synthesis resort to saying that people in power commonly make sweeping decisions for everyone under them depending on what they see as best. Your defense of Synthesis sounds just like Anakin talking about how a dictatorship would be a good thing.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it the truth, friend-y. All you've proven is that you're a broken-record. You keep making the same claim that "You always say ___!" but can't actually prove it. You walk into a thread claiming I say that, but can't actually find a post in that thread where I do, just hiding and then diverting back to repeating your lies when I ask of you.

What, you think I won't give you $1k? I can and I will, if you can do what I told you to. Oh that's right, you can't. Because it was a lie.

So, you're a lying liar that tells lies. And unlike you, I can prove that claim. This is the evidence!

You synthesis haters are all the same. You make up all these supposed "negatives" about what synthesis does, which you can't actually PROVE, while dismissing opposing arguments as just "headcanon/fanfic." The only halfway decent argument is of ethics, but that argument is pretty weak, given the circumstances for making the decision.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 12 juin 2012 - 04:46 .

[InHarmsWay]

Ieldra2 wrote...

antares:
"Fundamentally altering the definition of life"? Eh......in which fictional universe are you living? Ah, I forgot. You create imaginary scenarios in order to better be able to attack Synthesis. Well, that doesn't happen. Not in your universe, because you don't choose Synthesis, and not in mine, because Synthesis doesn't do that here.

Adding synthetic symbionts to people doesn't even change basic organic biochemistry. Reproduction, digestion, everything works as before. A few things are added. And if you insist on a literal interpretation of an exposition that makes no sense, that doesn't help your case.

The Catalyst literally said a new DNA is formed. That is indeed fundamentally changing all life in the galaxy.

[Ridwan]

Quite a few people here willing to play God and ****** on everything that makes our lives unique.

[o Ventus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

LOL shaddup foo' ... you can't even find supporting evidence for your own claims if you were offered a free 1 grand, what to say of concepts that are not your own.

http://social.biowar...5041/3#12366487

Have a seat.

I stand by what I said. Are you 10 years old? Your methods of defending synthesis resort to saying that people in power commonly make sweeping decisions for everyone under them depending on what they see as best. Your defense of Synthesis sounds just like Anakin talking about how a dictatorship would be a good thing.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it the truth, friend-y. All you've proven is that you're a broken-record. You keep making the same claim that "You always say ___!" but can't actually prove it. You walk into a thread claiming I say that, but can't actually find a post in that thread where I do, just hiding and then diverting back to repeating your lies when I ask of you.

What, you think I won't give you $1k? I can and I will, if you can do what I told you to. Oh that's right, you can't. Because it was a lie.

So, you're a lying liar that tells lies. And unlike you, I can prove that claim. This is the evidence!

You synthesis haters are all the same. You make up all these supposed "negatives" about what synthesis does, which you can't actually PROVE, while dismissing opposing arguments as just "headcanon/fanfic." The only halfway decent argument is of ethics, but that argument is pretty weak, given the circumstances for making the decision.

In much the same fashion that Synth-lovers headcanon or just make up reasons as to why Synthesis is good, just like jtav has done here.

[o Ventus]

M25105 wrote...

Quite a few people here willing to play God and ****** on everything that makes our lives unique.

Actually, it seems most are against it.

Maybe 3 or 4 supporters, tops.

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Quite a few people here willing to play God and ****** on everything that makes our lives unique.

Actually, it seems most are against it.

Maybe 3 or 4 supporters, tops.

And I'm watching them.

Every breath you take. Every move you make, I'll be watching you.

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

antares:
"Fundamentally altering the definition of life"? Eh......in which fictional universe are you living? Ah, I forgot. You create imaginary scenarios in order to better be able to attack Synthesis. Well, that doesn't happen. Not in your universe, because you don't choose Synthesis, and not in mine, because Synthesis doesn't do that here.

The only way you can come up with any defense of Synthesis is to
completely ignore in-game canon and insert your own fanfiction. It's
indefensible. It's a "winning" ending, but it's indefensible.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Adding synthetic symbionts to people doesn't even change basic organic biochemistry. Reproduction, digestion, everything works as before. A few things are added. And if you insist on a literal interpretation of an exposition that makes no sense, that doesn't help your case.

Fanfiction. Please explain how the introduction of foreign material into the body doesn't change "basic organic biochemistry". Aside from immunological considerations, how are these nanites getting their energy? Like I said, laughable, fanfiction.

[clennon8]

Even if the Catalyst is just "an exposition dump," which frankly seems like yet another metagaming cop-out to me, he isn't much of one.  You're still making an awful lot of ass-pull speculations about the wonderfulness of Synthesis, and then using those purely speculative outcomes to retro-justify an objectively insane choice.

Modifié par clennon8, 12 juin 2012 - 04:56 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

o Ventus wrote...

In much the same fashion that Synth-lovers headcanon or just make up reasons as to why Synthesis is good, just like jtav has done here.

So you agree that anti-Synthesis is invalid too for making sh*t up as reasons why it's bad?

[KDD-0063]

Perhaps it should be changed into why choosing between 3 doesn't matter.
The choice is an ultimatum from the reapers anyways. And since there's no choice to reject the god child, it shows that the races of the galaxy suck balls, that they can't come up with a plan to defeat the reapers, and that without the crucible we got nothing, simply nothing.

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

LOL shaddup foo' ... you can't even find supporting evidence for your own claims if you were offered a free 1 grand, what to say of concepts that are not your own.

http://social.biowar...5041/3#12366487

Have a seat.

I stand by what I said. Are you 10 years old? Your methods of defending synthesis resort to saying that people in power commonly make sweeping decisions for everyone under them depending on what they see as best. Your defense of Synthesis sounds just like Anakin talking about how a dictatorship would be a good thing.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it the truth, friend-y. All you've proven is that you're a broken-record. You keep making the same claim that "You always say ___!" but can't actually prove it. You walk into a thread claiming I say that, but can't actually find a post in that thread where I do, just hiding and then diverting back to repeating your lies when I ask of you.

What, you think I won't give you $1k? I can and I will, if you can do what I told you to. Oh that's right, you can't. Because it was a lie.

So, you're a lying liar that tells lies. And unlike you, I can prove that claim. This is the evidence!

You synthesis haters are all the same. You make up all these supposed "negatives" about what synthesis does, which you can't actually PROVE, while dismissing opposing arguments as just "headcanon/fanfic." The only halfway decent argument is of ethics, but that argument is pretty weak, given the circumstances for making the decision.

I was wrong, you're not 10 years old, you're 7.

Your posts are noxious enough I don't want to go through them, but even in that very thread, the page before, you say: "Get a reality-check. People with political power make decisions affecting people's health, well-being, life and death on an everyday basis."
My post was also referring to other posts you were making that day or the day before. Your posts are there, they exist.

In fact, here: http://social.biowar...660/21#12199338

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Democracy is not mutually exclusive with Fascism or Communism. The
latter are policies that can be implemented into democratic societies.
Plenty of fascist and communist principles exist in democracies today.

If
the argument is Democracy always being better than Dictatorship, I'd
argue otherwise. Democracy is only viable if that society's populace is
not stupid. Political leaders in democracies support policies that are
popular, what people want. But if the people are stupid, what's popular
won't often be what's best. Politicians trying to do what's best, but
not popular, in a democracy will not last long.

Why hasn't
democracy taken hold where the US tries to implement it? Lots of
reasons, but I'd say chief among those reasons is that those people need
to be lead, they are not capable of leading themselves.

Look at
the krogan in this game. Wrex is basically a dictator, but what he's
doing is probably best for the krogan people. If they decided things
democratically, you'd probably end up with Wreav's policies, which are
pretty awful for the krogan people.

Where's my $1000? Should I PM you my paypal address?

So, I can't prove my negatives, and pro-synthites have to resort to ignoring in-game canon and inserting their own, unprovable assertions to muster any semblance of a defense. What have we learned? It's all indefensible. BioWare says it's a "winning" ending, but it's a stupid concept that cannot be defended.

At least ALL of my questions are grounded in actual queries of what is actually happening. Very few have any actual response outside of hand-waving saying "it'll be ok, it must be - look at the silent 5 second clip: they're happyhappyhappy!"

I might still be overestimating your age now that I think about it.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 12 juin 2012 - 05:12 .

[CrutchCricket]

antares_sublight wrote...

So, I can't prove my negatives, and pro-synthites have to resort to ignoring in-game canon and inserting their own, unprovable assertions to muster any semblance of a defense. What have we learned? It's all indefensible. BioWare says it's a "winning" ending, but it's a stupid concept that cannot be defended.

Yes, the underlined. All the endings suck balls and I'm amazed you people are still at this.

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

In much the same fashion that Synth-lovers headcanon or just make up reasons as to why Synthesis is good, just like jtav has done here.

So you agree that anti-Synthesis is invalid too for making sh*t up as reasons why it's bad?

No. I've done everything in my power to tell people why it's bad, and it's worked. Justification after the fact is unacceptable.

The Synthesis people have a tendency to flee or work around the issue when you trap them, as yesterday so blatently revealed. You cannot justify the action, so you excuse it with the aftermath.

[akenn312]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Synthesis fundamentally alters the organization of life, environment and inter-species relationships. By choosing Synthesis, you are killing countless species across the galaxy by instantly radically altering their evolutionary niche and forcing their extinction. You are killing far more life than just the geth.

LOL shaddup foo' ... you can't even find supporting evidence for your own claims if you were offered a free 1 grand, what to say of concepts that are not your own.

http://social.biowar...5041/3#12366487

Have a seat.

I stand by what I said. Are you 10 years old? Your methods of defending synthesis resort to saying that people in power commonly make sweeping decisions for everyone under them depending on what they see as best. Your defense of Synthesis sounds just like Anakin talking about how a dictatorship would be a good thing.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it the truth, friend-y. All you've proven is that you're a broken-record. You keep making the same claim that "You always say ___!" but can't actually prove it. You walk into a thread claiming I say that, but can't actually find a post in that thread where I do, just hiding and then diverting back to repeating your lies when I ask of you.

What, you think I won't give you $1k? I can and I will, if you can do what I told you to. Oh that's right, you can't. Because it was a lie.

So, you're a lying liar that tells lies. And unlike you, I can prove that claim. This is the evidence!

You synthesis haters are all the same. You make up all these supposed "negatives" about what synthesis does, which you can't actually PROVE, while dismissing opposing arguments as just "headcanon/fanfic." The only halfway decent argument is of ethics, but that argument is pretty weak, given the circumstances for making the decision.

Just because Bioware throws in a cutscene showing EDI and Joker embracing does not make synthesis unethical. You have no supporting evidence other than that scene that says Synthesis is good, you take what Bioware gives you and you like it. Sure don't think for yourself or actually understand what this concept can push people into thinking.

One day it's okay to change everyones DNA to save the Galaxy, the next it's alright to gas everyone or turn them into your slaves to save it. Tyrants think along those lines. I will say it over and over you have no right. It's simple.

The proof is in the choice. The proof is in these posts and yours. The argument that Sythesis makes everybody better is extremly weak to justify forcing eveyone to change for their own good.  Circumstance even the end of our cycle doesnt justify a viloation like this.

1K yeah right,

Never trust a Vorcha

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Either way, the burden of proof is on you to show how introducing an entirely new biological existence — all this new stuff has to integrate with the body somehow — would not in any way affect the mind.

I don't need to prove anything more than you do. We are writing the consequences remember? If you think my version is implausible then tell me why you think so.

Thanks for leaving out the part of the quote where I explained why it’s implausible. I’ve added it to the end for reference.

So, yeah, you do need to prove your case. You’re asserting that people keep their minds intact, but simultaneously that your version of Synthesis fundamentally alters their perspective somehow.

What will happen is that perspectives will change. That will, of course, influence the way people are thinking.

Thank you. So, even in the best case scenario for your fantasy Thing That Is Kinda But Not Really Synthesis, people’s minds are altered.

Oh, or they can stick to the old existence, which invalidates the entire Synthesis ‘solution’.

Just say NO. You can’t even make your headcanon Thing That Is Kinda But Not Really Synthesis make sense, let alone the actual Synthesis from the game.

lillitheris wrote…

I’m sorry, weren’t you just arguing that your version of synthesis is
something that we can’t comprehend in our current form? That, obviously,
means that the end product of the synthesis is no longer the same person. They could be better (or worse), or they could just be made think they’re better, but the conclusion is inevitable.

Modifié par lillitheris, 12 juin 2012 - 05:16 .