1256 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Catalyst does not lie. Ever. He presents a fallacy. There is a difference.

And he needs that fallacy. And Bioware isn't going to address it either I would surmise, so Control and Destroy will remain just as valid as Synthesis.

To clarify, you mean fallacy as in a plausible argument using false or invalid references?

What false or invalid references, then? And if the Catalyst presents a fallacy in regard to Synthesis/Control, what exactly should Shep think about Destroy? If you're reasoning is based on the chest scene, I will politely agree to disagree, since fundamentally I don't think the chest scene should have any relevance. Of course, IMO, YMMV.

No, he presents a fallacy known as an appeal to probability. 

A is possible/therefore A is absolute.

This is logical fallacy. With no information about the singularity, nothing he says can be taken at face value. He says it will happen. Bull****. You can't do that, regardless of who you are.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 13 juin 2012 - 06:12 .

[PsyrenY]

Shepard CAN live in Destroy. But he can die as well. The Catalyst did not rule out either possibility.

It says, "Even you are partly synthetic." If PART of you dies, your chances of dying completely depend on which part.

o Ventus wrote...

1. Whatever. It's your belief and I can't take it from you.

2. Because you need something to contain those memories from the start. Unless they're somehow transferred BEFORE being melted down, then NOTHING AT ALL WAS ACCOMPLISHED.

3. It isn't "magic" when it's given a vaguely scientific explanation on how it works (Unlike Synthesis). Do you know what magic is? Synthesis will cease to be space magic as soon as some exposition is given.

4. I wasn't even saying it was related to Synthesis, only that it fueled the absurdity of the notion. I mentioned the Catalyst because Synthesis is the only option it apparently talks in metaphor when referring to it.

1. Fine.

2. How do you know what is needed to store memories? Have you melted many humanoids and poured them into supercomputers?

3. The operative word there is "vaguely." The Cipher is vaguely explained too, that doesn't make it science. For that matter, so is alchemy.

4. Because the other two are much more straightforward. "You can kill us or you can control us." Boom, done. He even has a handy illustration to go with each (Anderson or TIM.) For Synthesis, he has no frame of reference Shepard can readily grasp.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 13 juin 2012 - 06:16 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vigilant111 wrote...

WRONG! Democracy fails when its citizenry believe that it's okay to make the wrong choice if it's what most people want.

Democracy works when its leaders step up and convince their citizens to support them to make the right, but unpopular, decisions. And, when their citizens are smart enough to support the leaders who consistently make the right decisions.

Your point? the bolded text is not about democracy, its about a leader caring for his /her people, it is still up to the people to decide,

It IS about democracy, that's what you don't understand. The onus is on the citizens to prove they are worthy of their democratic PRIVLEDGES. If they are voting to support candidates that do not act in the best interests of the country, but rather, candidates that are catering to popular opinions to get themselves continually re-elected while not actually doing any good (and maybe actually doing bad) then the democracy is broken.

Also, it's leaders should show integrity and try to convince citizens to support their policies rather than rely on polls to decide their policies. Otherwise, again, the democratic system is broken.

in fact, tyranny happens when leaders don't ask the people what they want or what they are about to get into...

Wrong again. Tyranny happens when leaders fool citizens into being complacent. It's not enough to have a democratic system, the citizenry needs to be informed and keeping up with their policymakers. To quote Jefferson again - newspapers.  "Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." Being informed is the key.

Democratically-elected leaders prey on their citizens not paying attention to the fact that they aren't keeping election promises. And THAT is when tyranny happens.

[Taboo]

Thomas Jefferson? Are you serious?

People should be making these choices. A true democracy relies on the people, not one man or woman.

The possibility for Tyranny appears whenever someone takes a position of power. The people keep them in check.

ALL people have a right to that system. Being oppressed before hand only makes it harder.

[OMTING52601]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bioware has all but confirmed that Shepard lives in Destroy. Weekes even responded about him breathing in a tweet, asking the tweeter to "wait".

It WAS an Easter Egg, but now Bioware has to deal with it.

All but, respectfully, isn't the same as is. Furthermore, people who aren't playing the MP for reasons having to do with not having access to Xbox Live, for whatever reason, also aren't going to have access to the EC. As such, any and all arguments I make are based on the sum total of the SP player game as it was delivered to consumers upon its release.

That means that even if BW somehow makes that breath something that shows up in all Destroy endings, regardless of GaW scores, it still has zero relevance since everyone who bought the game will not have access to that change. And my position on this would be the same even if that scene were made accessible in all endings. Using it to justify or explain any position, which is totally within anyone's right to do, changes the foundation for a discussion, where my position and the other position are not drawing from identical information and as such, then, cannot be fruitful or balanced. FWIW.  

[o Ventus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. Whatever. It's your belief and I can't take it from you.

2. Because you need something to contain those memories from the start. Unless they're somehow transferred BEFORE being melted down, then NOTHING AT ALL WAS ACCOMPLISHED.

3. It isn't "magic" when it's given a vaguely scientific explanation on how it works (Unlike Synthesis). Do you know what magic is? Synthesis will cease to be space magic as soon as some exposition is given.

4. I wasn't even saying it was related to Synthesis, only that it fueled the absurdity of the notion. I mentioned the Catalyst because Synthesis is the only option it apparently talks in metaphor when referring to it.

1. Fine.

2. How do you know what is needed to store memories? Have you melted many humanoids and poured them into supercomputers?

3. The operative word there is "vaguely." The Cipher is vaguely explained too, that doesn't make it science. For that matter, so is alchemy.

4. Because the other two are much more straightforward. "You can kill us or you can control us." Boom, done. He even has a handy illustration to go with each (Anderson or TIM.) For Synthesis, he has no frame of reference Shepard can readily grasp.

2. Strawmanning, again.

3. You already know what I tihnk of the Cipher (At least, I think it was you I dsicussed it with). 

4. Then the fault is on Bioware not animating a tutorial video for Synthesis? That doesn't mean anything. He could just as easily said "Look here Stupid..."

[Vigilant111]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

WRONG! Democracy fails when its citizenry believe that it's okay to make the wrong choice if it's what most people want.

Democracy works when its leaders step up and convince their citizens to support them to make the right, but unpopular, decisions. And, when their citizens are smart enough to support the leaders who consistently make the right decisions.

Your point? the bolded text is not about democracy, its about a leader caring for his /her people, it is still up to the people to decide,

It IS about democracy, that's what you don't understand. The onus is on the citizens to prove they are worthy of their democratic PRIVLEDGES. If they are voting to support candidates that do not act in the best interests of the country, but rather, candidates that are catering to popular opinions to get themselves continually re-elected while not actually doing any good (and maybe actually doing bad) then the democracy is broken.

Also, it's leaders should show integrity and try to convince citizens to support their policies rather than rely on polls to decide their policies. Otherwise, again, the democratic system is broken.

in fact, tyranny happens when leaders don't ask the people what they want or what they are about to get into...

Wrong again. Tyranny happens when leaders fool citizens into being complacent. It's not enough to have a democratic system, the citizenry needs to be informed and keeping up with their policymakers. To quote Jefferson again - newspapers.  "Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." Being informed is the key.

Democratically-elected leaders prey on their citizens not paying attention to the fact that they aren't keeping election promises. And THAT is when tyranny happens.

*searching for a renegade interupt

That's not what tyranny is, that is called lying

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Are you serious? Really? People NEED a dictator?

Both Democracy and Dictatorships can be bad. Sometimes, they are so close they begin to look the same.

People have the right to choose what they want. Democracy can oppress, as can a Dictator.

Yes I'm serious and it's not nearly as apalling as you'll try to make it out to be. The Iraqi people themselves believe that they were better off under Sadam Hussein than they are now. Their democratic system gets nothing done. Leaders are corrupt, or get assassinated. The citizens are too busy fighting each other along religious and racial lines.

Let me reiterate: the people that are going to vote for who they want in charge think that killing their own neighbors is good for their country. Yeah, they're definitely not fit for a democracy. They NEED a dictator until they prove otherwise.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Vigilant111 wrote...

*searching for a renegade interupt

That's not what tyranny is, that is called lying

The US currently censors media, has secret-police in the form of intelligence agents, can arrest without a warrant and deny trial by jury. Privacy is non-existant. American citizens have allowed all of it. There are real stories of people who get thrown in jail for terrorism and other bogus charges without any evidence of wrong doing, and are guilty of no crime.

That is tyranny. And it happens in a democratic societry, all because citizens never held our leaders accountable for taking away basic Constitutional rights, but just believe their democracy is "working" because their leaders are being elected every year.

[OMTING52601]

Taboo-XX wrote...

No, he presents a fallacy known as an appeal to probability. 

A is possible/therefore A is absolute.

This is logical fallacy. With no information about the singularity, nothing he says can be taken at face value. He says it will happen. Bull****. You can't do that, regardless of who you are.

Okay, wait, when? If this is your perception of the conversation Shep has with the Catalyst, that's cool. Not trying to be an ass, I just don't know that I want to get into that kind of discussion, since they tend to be circular and go nowhere.

The Catalyst does say it will happen, but with no information about where the Catalyst comes from or how it came into being, the player also doesn't have enough data to know the Catalyst isn't right, either.

Plunging into speculation here, but for all Shep knows the Catalyst was the last synthetic left defending organic life in that long ago cycle. And for all Shep knows, the Catalyst decided that in order to stop the annihilation of organic life it had to harvest what was left of the organics of its cycle, thus removing their physicality from the equation. And then the Catalyst, unable to get with the rest of his synthetic society, couldn't completely destroy the organics, so he chose to store their collective consciousness inside a synthetic shell. Hiding them in plain sight, but also fundamentally changing them into an ordered, thus non-threatening, Reaper. Afterwhich, the Catalyst then took control of it's synthetic brethren, forcing them to his will, and allowing lower biological life to survive - and hopefully flourish. And life did, but then, once again organics created synthetics that rose up against them, bent on ending the chaos, and thus the Catalyst made the decision to use his Reapers to step in and prevent the destruction once more. Then again, and again, and again...

There isn't enough information in the game for Shep to know the Catalyst is making a logical fallacy. 

I'll admit the writers use of the word 'always' is poor word choice - but I'm not inclined to give BW the benefit of thinking they carefully chose their wording in order to offer a secret wink, wink, nudge, nudge to only the brightest of players capable of picking up on that one usage and from there intuit the actual secret truths of the end. I'm not castigating or belittling the writers, either.

Any game that purports itself to have been created to attract the widest audience possible, which I don't think anyone could say is opposite of what BW themselves have repeatedly shown, in the work itself, as well as in statements, would have gone with such an obscure item as the OMG amazing hidden reveal. Oc course, my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to agree with it

[Bill Casey]

[OMTING52601]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

*searching for a renegade interupt

That's not what tyranny is, that is called lying

The US currently censors media, has secret-police in the form of intelligence agents, can arrest without a warrant and deny trial by jury. Privacy is non-existant. American citizens have allowed all of it. There are real stories of people who get thrown in jail for terrorism and other bogus charges without any evidence of wrong doing, and are guilty of no crime.

That is tyranny. And it happens in a democratic societry, all because citizens never held our leaders accountable for taking away basic Constitutional rights, but just believe their democracy is "working" because their leaders are being elected every year.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Absolutely agree. Though his thoughts on poverty... not so much. Or not without relevent context, but I digress.

Democracy, as a pure idea, is great. But what we have in the US isn't a democracy. We live in a Republic, one which claims some democratic elements, but by no means is an actual democracy. I know the two terms are often used interchangably, but they actually aren't the same thing. Well, ROFL, depending I suppose on what book/expert you read. However, in point of fact, the founding fathers weren't keen at all on the idea of democracy - they built the foundation of this country on the ideals of a Republic. Of course, their opinions were influenced by what a democracy was in there time, still it's important to note.

IMO, the US is even less a Republic, now. It's more akin to an oligarchy or more truthfully a plutocracy where wealth equals power and the wealthiest few have the most influence. FWIW, YMMV.

[jla0644]

akenn312 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

Sorry I have a right to feel how I feel. Why get upset because I have a belief?

LOL, this is almost word for word what I've been saying to Synthesis haters, and it's getting thrown back at me by a Synthesis hater. Gotta love it.

And FYI, I think Synthesis is easily the worst of three absolutely terrible options.

Ah the bravery to throw out childish insults behind the safety of computer screens. I love that part myself. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Huh? What insult? I found it amusing that one of the people arguing with me would use one of the exact arguments I made earlier. Nothing more than that. Not an insult anywhere in there.

[jla0644]

OMTING52601 wrote...

There isn't enough information in the game for Shep to know the Catalyst is making a logical fallacy. 

Precisely. We have no idea what it knows or doesn't know. We can't make the assumption that it's just guessing based on probabilities. It may very well have seen the cycle play out over millions of years. It may well have seen all organic life wiped from the galaxy.

Regardless, the game certainly presents what it says as truth. The fact that we can't argue or question suggests to me that as far as the writers were concerned, the Catalyst is correct.

EDIT: damn this thread got weird. Some of the conversations don't even concern Mass Effect anymore.

Modifié par jla0644, 13 juin 2012 - 07:05 .

[o Ventus]

jla0644 wrote...

OMTING52601 wrote...

There isn't enough information in the game for Shep to know the Catalyst is making a logical fallacy. 

Precisely. We have no idea what it knows or doesn't know. We can't make the assumption that it's just guessing based on probabilities. It may very well have seen the cycle play out over millions of years. It may well have seen all organic life wiped from the galaxy.

Regardless, the game certainly presents what it says as truth. The fact that we can't argue or question suggests to me that as far as the writers were concerned, the Catalyst is correct.

EDIT: damn this thread got weird. Some of the conversations don't even concern Mass Effect anymore.

If he's seen it happen, then he should goddamn tell us. His role is a big fat exposition dump, and he's failing at the easiest job in storytelling.

And how could he have seen all organic life wiped out when... organic life so obviously exists? If such a super powerful synthetic that killed all organics existed... Where is it? Why are there no traces of one? No myths or legends? The super-synthetic would be failing it's task if it suddenly stopped killing organics after meeting its quota.

Shepard has mountains of evidence to use against the Catalyst, but the Catalyst has none. Since the Catalyst is the one making the claim (an absolute claim, no less), the burden of proof falls onto him, and he provides NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

[OMTING52601]

Ventus, I feel you. The Catalyst is totally a giant, massive info dump. A bundle of exposition that is so frakking out of place, I'll admit to being a bit dizzy from the sudden switch up the first time my Shep met the creepy AI ghost.

Maybe he's the reason all organic life didn't get wiped out? Maybe he stepped in and saved what ever bits were left, either indirectly by hiding some lower life forms away from his bent-on-annihilation-of-organics bros or directly by taking total control of his people then harvesting up the last advanced biologics and turning them into Reapers. Thing is, Shep doesn't know, the game doesn't give us enough information to make an informed decision - which I absolutely believe is the point.

The end was designed to force the player to abandon any and all logic and instead go with his/her 'gut' reaction.

[OMTING52601]

jla0644 wrote...

Precisely. We have no idea what it knows or doesn't know. We can't make the assumption that it's just guessing based on probabilities. It may very well have seen the cycle play out over millions of years. It may well have seen all organic life wiped from the galaxy.

Regardless, the game certainly presents what it says as truth. The fact that we can't argue or question suggests to me that as far as the writers were concerned, the Catalyst is correct.

EDIT: damn this thread got weird. Some of the conversations don't even concern Mass Effect anymore.

I won't say the Catalyst is correct, just that IMO there isn't enough information to definitively state the Catalyst is incorrect. Like I just said, I think the whole point was the players were supposed to meet the Catalyst and then basically, follow their emotional mind instead of their logical one. Why in the world the devs would imagine that would actually be what happened, I can't begin to guess.

And yeah, to your edit. Then again, with the word fascism being tossed around left and right, it was only a matter of time before things veered a bit out of whack. Still, I think for the most part, folks have managed to get things back on track before too long

[PsyrenY]

o Ventus wrote...

2. Strawmanning, again.

3. You already know what I tihnk of the Cipher (At least, I think it was you I dsicussed it with). 

4. Then the fault is on Bioware not animating a tutorial video for Synthesis? That doesn't mean anything. He could just as easily said "Look here Stupid..."

2. Nice dodge, but try again. How do you know what information is stored in a Reaper vs. what is not? How do you know what is recoverable or not? (The answer, to save you time: you don't.)

3. Maybe - refresh my memory. Do you consider the Cipher to be science, or space magic?

4. Indeed, it's Bioware's fault for poorly explaining it. That doesn't mean we conjure up impossibilities (giving robots DNA) and then declare them to fail, not when there are perfectly serviceable explanations we can use instea e.g. the original script's more detailed wording. Unless, again, your desire is that Synthesis fails - which again I point out is not possible, not since it "ends the Reaper threat," and isn't going anywhere in EC, so we may as well make lemonade out of lemons.

[lillitheris]

@Optimystic_X: You’re welcome to believe in whatever fantasy you like.

I only object to trying to portray Synthesis, as defined and shown by the game, to be a reasonable choice — both as a choice, and the actual ‘mechanics’ (LOL @ “new DNA”).

So, if a pro-Synthesis person says: “Well, I like this version of Synthesis that I invented for myself and has nothing to do with the game”, that’s peachy.

If they try to defend the actual version, then…well, you’ve seen how terribly they do at it, because it’s indefensible.


Re: ‘information stored in a Reaper’: the human mind consists of connections between neurons (typically idiosyncratic to the person). Those connections are destroyed if the brain is not intact. Therefore, brain paste does not store the person, or their intact memories.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 juin 2012 - 08:01 .

[Xellith]

lillitheris wrote...

@Optimystic_X: You’re welcome to believe in whatever fantasy you like.

I only object to trying to portray Synthesis, as defined and shown by the game, to be a reasonable choice — both as a choice, and the actual ‘mechanics’ (LOL @ “new DNA”).

So, if a pro-Synthesis person says: “Well, I like this version of Synthesis that I invented for myself and has nothing to do with the game”, that’s peachy.

If they try to defend the actual version, then…well, you’ve seen how terribly they do at it, because it’s indefensible.

yea...

Modifié par Xellith, 13 juin 2012 - 08:02 .

[PsyrenY]

lillitheris wrote...

So, if a pro-Synthesis person says: “Well, I like this version of Synthesis that I invented for myself and has nothing to do with the game”, that’s peachy.

If they try to defend the actual version, then…well, you’ve seen how terribly they do at it, because it’s indefensible.

Hey genius, there IS no "actual version." It was not explained. I get that you don't like speculations, but too bad, they're all we've got.

We know fragments of fragments. Reapers leave. Everything gets circuit patterns. Humans still look mostly human, robots still look mostly robot. Positive tone of epilogue, including confirmation that we won the war. Galaxy is still around 10k years later, along with memories of what you did.

That's it! There's nothing else until EC. Certainly nothing on the actual mechanics of synthesis or the capabilities of resultant beings. So what "actual version" am I defending, exactly?

lillitheris wrote...
Re: ‘information stored in a Reaper’: the human mind consists of connections between neurons (typically idiosyncratic to the person). Those connections are destroyed if the brain is not intact. Therefore, brain paste does not store the person, or their intact memories.

Right, because the Prothean Beacons were composed of  "connections between neurons." Clearly that is the only possible way to relay the memories of an organic race. Clearly.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 13 juin 2012 - 08:16 .

[lillitheris]

Optimystic_X wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

So, if a pro-Synthesis person says: “Well, I like this version of Synthesis that I invented for myself and has nothing to do with the game”, that’s peachy.

If they try to defend the actual version, then…well, you’ve seen how terribly they do at it, because it’s indefensible.

Hey genius, there IS no "actual version." It was not explained. I get that you don't like speculations, but too bad, they're all we've got.

We know fragments of fragments. Reapers leave. Everything gets circuit patterns. Humans still look mostly human, robots still look mostly robot. Positive tone of epilogue, including confirmation that we won the war. Galaxy is still around 10k years later, along with memories of what you did.

That's it! There's nothing else until EC. Certainly nothing on the actual mechanics of synthesis or the capabilities of resultant beings. So what "actual version" am I defending, exactly?

I really have no idea what you think you are defending. That‘s the problem.

Just preface your explanation with “this is my fantasy Synthesis, not supported by in-game evidence”, I’ll be happy.

lillitheris wrote...
Re: ‘information stored in a Reaper’: the human mind consists of connections between neurons (typically idiosyncratic to the person). Those connections are destroyed if the brain is not intact. Therefore, brain paste does not store the person, or their intact memories.

Right, because the Prothean Beacons were composed of  "connections between neurons." Clearly that is the only possible way to relay the memories of an organic race. Clearly.

Not sure if dumb… If you make paste of a human brain, it no longer stores the person or the memories. Full stop.

Feel free to try to explain that away, but remember to preface with “in my fantasy Synthesis…”

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 juin 2012 - 08:42 .

[Ieldra]

@lillitheris:
Information piece A: Legion: [A Reaper is] "Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within an immortal machine body".
Information piece B: human bodies are ground to paste as part of the process of building a Reaper.

These pieces of information are not imcompatible. Why? Because we have no idea when the uploading takes place. Actually, one does wonder why they waited so with the pasting process. The victims must've spent several days (the crew) to several weeks (Lilith) in the pods. The true answer is of course, "so that the player can see it happening", and logic be damned, but two pieces of information can be made compatible by positing that they use that time to record and upload minds before "destroying the old form".

And while I'm at it, I think it's the visual presentation which is at fault here. It's clearly made for effect and logic be damned. From the first encounter with Sovereign on Virmire, there were always hints that Reaper minds are gestalt minds. In ME2, we learn that they're made from organic minds. Harbinger says "We are Harbinger". This is a consistent setup with only the CB scene suggesting (not even proving, as I've shown above) something else. As I see it, they pushed the horror up to eleven to trigger an emotional reaction. Unfortunately, they succeeded all too well, so that actual debate about this is stymied by preconceptions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 09:32 .

[lillitheris]

♫ Faaaantasy Syyyyy-yyyynthessiiiiiis ♫

[Ieldra]

Oh yeah? Out of arguments, are you? Well then, I challenge you to create a better scenario than I did. Or a better one than jtav did. Oh I forgot, you aren't interested in being constructive, you just want to destroy (pun intended)....

Alternatively, you could try to answer to my points. But of course, since you won't be able to counter them, you resort to demagogue methods.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 09:42 .