1256 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

About harvesting: I can only assume that turning organics into goo somehow extracts DNA which is then used to create a similar thinking mind. But it is not the same. The original mind died. Gone. Forever.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 juin 2012 - 09:48 .

[Xellith]

Well supposedly the crucible can take your mind by electrocuting you. Its logical to asume that there are methods implimented either before or during liquification which copy your mind.

But even then a copy of a mind does not = original mind. The original person is gone forever.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And while I'm at it, I think it's the visual presentation which is at fault here. It's clearly made for effect and logic be damned.

This is very convenient. Anything you don’t like is just “for effect” and you can dismiss it.

From the first encounter with Sovereign on Virmire, there were always hints that Reaper minds are gestalt minds. In ME2, we learn that they're made from organic minds. Harbinger says "We are Harbinger".

ME, Virmire:

Sovereign: Oh, Shep! Just the person we wanted to see!

Shep: Oh? Who are you?

Sovereign: We’re called Sovereign. We used to be a species of intelligent beings just like you humans, but then these totally awesome Reapers came and ascended us to a new blissful eternal existence with no disease or death. We’re all immortal and it’s, like, totally awesome in here. We’d like to offer the same option to you — would you like to help us present it to the Council?

Shep: Sure, let’s go!

…

The reason that doesn’t happen? Obvious: there actually isn’t a gestalt mind, or if there is, it’s completely enslaved by an evil machine AI.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 juin 2012 - 09:53 .

[Vigilant111]

Destroyers are not concerned about making constructive scenarios for synthesis, but for destroy only

...and why on Earth would reapers preserve the minds and cultures by destruction, best thing to do is to leave organics alone, like establishing national parks and environmental reserves

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
About harvesting: I can only assume that turning organics into goo somehow extracts DNA which is then used to create a similar thinking mind. But it is not the same. The original mind died. Gone. Forever.

That would counter the Catalyst's statement that the species are preserved in Reaper form. And it would counter Legion's statement as well, for those minds wouldn't be organic any more, they would be created, thus synthetic. Also, a species is more than their DNA. Since the Catalyst is not stupid, I feel justified in assuming that it knows this. As I see it, the DNA is used to store information about the individual's physical form. Apart from that, the destruction of the "old form" is very much the point.

Another possibility is that they're using this "experience is a genetic marker" (Javik) principle. Which would be nonsensical, but Mac Walters has done worse to biology in the ME universe.

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...
The reason that doesn’t happen? Obvious: there actually isn’t a gestalt mind, or if there is, it’s completely enslaved by an evil machine AI....

...namely, the Catalyst. As I've outlined in my Reaper mind control hypothesis. As Mordin would say: no proof, but theory fits evidence.

Edit:
Link corrected.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 11:07 .

[Ieldra]

Xellith wrote...
Well supposedly the crucible can take your mind by electrocuting you. Its logical to asume that there are methods implimented either before or during liquification which copy your mind.

But even then a copy of a mind does not = original mind. The original person is gone forever.

We could discuss the latter forever. Copy a set of information then delete the original. The "copy" will be indistinguishable from the original. Unless you ascribe some supernatural attribute to a mind, for all intents and purposes copy and original are identical.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
About harvesting: I can only assume that turning organics into goo somehow extracts DNA which is then used to create a similar thinking mind. But it is not the same. The original mind died. Gone. Forever.

That would counter the Catalyst's statement that the species are preserved in Reaper form. And it would counter Legion's statement as well, for those minds wouldn't be organic any more, they would be created, thus synthetic. Also, a species is more than their DNA. Since the Catalyst is not stupid, I feel justified in assuming that it knows this. As I see it, the DNA is used to store information about the individual's physical form. Apart from that, the destruction of the "old form" is very much the point.

Another possibility is that they're using this "experience is a genetic marker" (Javik) principle. Which would be nonsensical, but Mac Walters has done worse to biology in the ME universe.

Some other idea which includes the original idea of the reapers: It would make sense in the dark energy scenario in which the reapers were looking for a species capable of solving the expansion problem. There, it is not the purpose to preserve the indiviuals, but creating a powerful bio-computer with unique problem solving features found in a race instead. It is not that this would be more ethical, but at least it would have a purpose other than a reproduction method to stay on top of the food chain.

Edit: If a species is self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought then it doesn't matter if that has an organic or a synthetic origin. It also doesn't matter if it has an individual mind or a collective mind. So, your remark about the geth escapes me.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 13 juin 2012 - 10:24 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

We could discuss the latter forever. Copy a set of information then delete the original. The "copy" will be indistinguishable from the original. Unless you ascribe some supernatural attribute to a mind, for all intents and purposes copy and original are identical.

Incorrect.

Consider: there’s a process that creates a perfect copy of you. The two of you exist simultaneously. Are you both persons at the same time? What happens when you die? Do you then become the copy rather than actually dying?

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
The reason that doesn’t happen? Obvious: there actually isn’t a gestalt mind, or if there is, it’s completely enslaved by an evil machine AI....

...namely, the Catalyst. As I've outlined in my Reaper mind control hypothesis. As Mordin would say: no proof, but theory fits evidence.

Ah, yes, this is the one where you ignore the individualism that the Reapers display in cases where it’s inconvenient to your theory, and rely on it in other cases.

♫ Faaaantasyy Sy-yyyynthesiiiis ♫

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
The reason that doesn’t happen? Obvious: there actually isn’t a gestalt mind, or if there is, it’s completely enslaved by an evil machine AI....

...namely, the Catalyst. As I've outlined in my Reaper mind control hypothesis. As Mordin would say: no proof, but theory fits evidence.

Ah, yes, this is the one where you ignore the individualism that the Reapers display in cases where it’s inconvenient to your theory, and rely on it in other cases.

Ah yes, this is yet another instance where you don't read my posts but instead rely on a one-sentence summary. I have dealt with exactly that problem in the OP of the linked thread.

Dishonest demagoguery, yet again. This seems to be the rule of the year for anti-Synthesis fanatics and witch hunters here on BSN.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 10:49 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Am I the only one who clicked that link? It has nothing to do with said subject.

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
We could discuss the latter forever. Copy a set of information then delete the original. The "copy" will be indistinguishable from the original. Unless you ascribe some supernatural attribute to a mind, for all intents and purposes copy and original are identical.

Incorrect.

Consider: there’s a process that creates a perfect copy of you. The two of you exist simultaneously. Are you both persons at the same time? What happens when you die? Do you then become the copy rather than actually dying?

Each of the two would think it's the original, since of course it was the one who had the idea to be copied in the first place. Perfect copies mean identical memories. Without external information, there is no way for you to say if you're original or copy.

@AngryFrozenWater:
I have postulated that the Reapers are the victims of true mind control. What we usually refer to as mind control is nothing of the sort - it's just the body being controlled. True mind control subverts the will. You will do what you want and it will be what your master wants. That way, personality traits are retained but you will still do the will of your master. Indoctrination is a good example, actually. Indoctrinated people are mostly still themselves but do the will of the Reapers. If the Catalyst has the Reapers under a similar kind of control (without the destruction of the mind that inevitably follows indoctrination), they can express different personalities while still being mind-controlled.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[Xellith]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xellith wrote...
Well supposedly the crucible can take your mind by electrocuting you. Its logical to asume that there are methods implimented either before or during liquification which copy your mind.

But even then a copy of a mind does not = original mind. The original person is gone forever.

We could discuss the latter forever. Copy a set of information then delete the original. The "copy" will be indistinguishable from the original. Unless you ascribe some supernatural attribute to a mind, for all intents and purposes copy and original are identical.

Incorrect.   Each persons brain is individual.  Specific chemicals are in each persons brain at specific levels etc.  If you were to take my brain for example and then somehow transfer it to another persons brain.  That persons brain's physical makeup would cause that copys brain patterns to come to other conclusions and thought processes.

Example:
Somehow magically get two identical people.  There is not a single thing different about them.  Put them into two identical rooms.  Give one of the people a cocktail of drugs to alter brain chemistry.  You would see them act differently.

Copying someones brain to a computer would not = identical people.  Not by a long shot.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@Ieldra2: Click that link again. It is about "emotional age".

[Ieldra]

Xellith wrote...
Example:
Somehow magically get two identical people.  There is not a single thing different about them.  Put them into two identical rooms.  Give one of the people a cocktail of drugs to alter brain chemistry.  You would see them act differently.

I'm not saying that each of them is the original. Only that each of them would think he's the original. Without marring the perfection of the copy in the first place, you could not convince any of the two they're not the original. After being copied, of course they're different people and can have different experiences. Still, each of them would continue to think he's the original.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juin 2012 - 11:08 .

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
@Ieldra2: Click that link again. It is about "emotional age".

Ah....sorry, I must've had a typo in the link. Here's the real one, this time (hopefully):

On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is such an attractive choice

[Vigilant111]

Modifié par Vigilant111, 13 juin 2012 - 11:12 .

[NedPepper]

jla0644 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

In much the same fashion that Synth-lovers headcanon or just make up reasons as to why Synthesis is good, just like jtav has done here.

That is all anyone can do, with any of the endings.

They all suck. The entire ending sucks. It sucked before you were given your 3 choices, it sucked after you were given the choices, and it sucked after you made your choice. There is no way to objectively and definitvely prove that one is better or more ethical than the others. It's all a matter of opinion. No matter what you choose, you are forever changing the galaxy without getting anyone's consent. There is no way around this fact, for any of the choices. This argument that Synthesis haters keep harping on applies to all three endings.

As bad as the ending is, the one thing Bioware did right was give us a choice of how we wanted to **** over the galaxy. If you don't like Synthesis (which I can understand, only 1 one of my Sheps has taken it), you don't have to choose it. You're free to commit genocide or become a Reaper, whichever one you think is more ethical, lol.

I will never understand why some of you, and you know who you are, cannot tolerate the fact that others choose not to take Synthesis in the direction you took it. If you're so damn concerned about choice and free will, let them have theirs without calling them fascists for it.  Does it really hurt you that they wanted to take it in a positive direction, that they were able to get something positive out of this trainwreck of an ending? Why does it offend you if they do that? It does not affect you in the slightest. You're only coming off as intolerant and self-righteous. And some of you are becoming quite unhinged in your hatred.

This needs to be repeated.  For the sake of sanity. 

Here's something else.  Let the endings be.  For now.  Aren't you tired of arguing about the same issues when all of these "endings" rely on head canon and trying to make sense of endings that don't make sense based on 99% of the Mass Effect narrative?

Look, Bioware claimed it went over our heads.  It's the opposite.  This forum has gone out of its way to try and bring some kind of logic to the endings, to the point that it has turned into a damn religious debate. 

I hope Bioware is at least reading some of this stuff, so maybe they can see the problems with their three endings, endings that felt like no thought was put into them at all.  I'd rather everyone go back to just hating the endings than sitting here locked on to their choice and defending it from silly moralistic perspective.  Take a breath.

And if the EC doesn't add clarification...maybe it's time, as hard as is may be...to just let it go.  Think of Mass Effect as a really great, inventive series that was a lot of fun until the last five minutes turned everything into a illogical mess. 

[Vigilant111]

@Ieldra2: Isn't it too convenient to just push everything onto the Catalyst? I thought the Catalyst is a part of the reapers

From what u r saying, now the Catalyst appears to be even less trustworthy

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
The reason that doesn’t happen? Obvious: there actually isn’t a gestalt mind, or if there is, it’s completely enslaved by an evil machine AI....

...namely, the Catalyst. As I've outlined in my Reaper mind control hypothesis. As Mordin would say: no proof, but theory fits evidence.

Ah, yes, this is the one where you ignore the individualism that the Reapers display in cases where it’s inconvenient to your theory, and rely on it in other cases.

Ah yes, this is yet another instance where you don't read my posts but instead rely on a one-sentence summary. I have dealt with exactly that problem in the OP of the linked thread.

Dishonest demagoguery, yet again. This seems to be the rule of the year for anti-Synthesis fanatics and witch hunters here on BSN.

You are anti-Synthesis.

What you argue — in a very tenuous and circular manner, to boot, you disregard evidence and bring in evidence not extant in the game as you please to try to make some kind of a plausible framework — is not the Synthesis the game presents. It’s Theory That Is Kinda Like Synthesis But Not Really.

As soon as you stop claiming that you’re speaking about Synthesis, I’ll stop calling you on it. Just admit it’s headcanon. That’s all.

…

Did I mention how awesome Destroy is because it only destroys the Reapers who are nothing but AIs, and nobody and nothing else? I don’t really understand why anyone would pick anything else.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[jtav]

We know only a few things about Synthesis. Synthetics acquire organic traits and vice versa. This will, in the mind of the Catalyst, stop a technological singularity from occurring, Beyond that is guesswork. I feel confident in saying personhood is retained because personhood is precisely what the geth and EDI attain over the course of the game. DNA becoming partly synthetic is a biological and physical impossibility, so metaphor is far more likely here.

As for the Reapers, the Catalyst refers to itself as a controller not a leader. They have their own personalities, but the will is subverted. Once they are blasted with the green light, they leave. It changed them too. Since their controller just got blown up, I can only assume they are free.

[InHarmsWay]

nedpepper wrote...

And if the EC doesn't add clarification...maybe it's time, as hard as is may be...to just let it go.  Think of Mass Effect as a really great, inventive series that was a lot of fun until the last five minutes turned everything into a illogical mess. 

And then we shall see how well DA3 does. Mass Effect 3's price went down by close to fifty percent in many store locations due to the ending.

People won't just let it go without a grudge. Fans have been burnt one too many times. Dragon Age 2, Old Republic, and now this.

[KingZayd]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
About harvesting: I can only assume that turning organics into goo somehow extracts DNA which is then used to create a similar thinking mind. But it is not the same. The original mind died. Gone. Forever.

That would counter the Catalyst's statement that the species are preserved in Reaper form. And it would counter Legion's statement as well, for those minds wouldn't be organic any more, they would be created, thus synthetic. Also, a species is more than their DNA. Since the Catalyst is not stupid, I feel justified in assuming that it knows this. As I see it, the DNA is used to store information about the individual's physical form. Apart from that, the destruction of the "old form" is very much the point.

Another possibility is that they're using this "experience is a genetic marker" (Javik) principle. Which would be nonsensical, but Mac Walters has done worse to biology in the ME universe.

I believe they're using a form of genetic memory. That said, I don't understand how having these organic minds and  then overruling them through mind control does anything to preserve the identity of the race? seems a bit pointless doesn't it?

[akenn312]

jla0644 wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

Sorry I have a right to feel how I feel. Why get upset because I have a belief?

LOL, this is almost word for word what I've been saying to Synthesis haters, and it's getting thrown back at me by a Synthesis hater. Gotta love it.

And FYI, I think Synthesis is easily the worst of three absolutely terrible options.

Ah the bravery to throw out childish insults behind the safety of computer screens. I love that part myself. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

Huh? What insult? I found it amusing that one of the people arguing with me would use one of the exact arguments I made earlier. Nothing more than that. Not an insult anywhere in there.

Check your previous posts in response. When you devolve and resort to comments like that that you are trying to just insult., not debate. Also you might feel that i'm trying to insult people on here but i'm not. I'm just stating that the game showing that it is okay for one man to make a choice that changes everyones genetics without their knowledge, has questionable ethics. You get angry having it even brought up and try to paint people as being crazy if they see it, but it's still there. 

Again you have effectively avoided the choice issue. The argument and what Taboo-XX is bringing to the table has nothing to do with Bioware's intentions, the results of the choice or the specifics what a new DNA means or even Mass Effect lore. Obviously Bioware would not put in a meaning that has such undertowns, At least I would hope they wouldn't. Obviously people are not trying to become dictators when they choose synthesis. But again the issue is still there. 

Again the point of the debate is the choice, One man can not take it upon himself to change all life without consent. If you are going to keep arguing with me about this. Bring something better to the table than "Bioware made the game that way." Duh hur hur hur. You are dumb."

Lets talk in a civil way why you think it's okay for that man to do such a thing. You keep saying i'm trying to cut off peoples rights to choose synthesis, I say people can choose it but it's unethical to take away everyone else's freedom or disregard consent to get a specific result even if you think it's for their own good or the results will be positive. 

Modifié par akenn312, 13 juin 2012 - 04:11 .