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[jtav]

Catalyst is blown to pieces with the Citadel, so I think it's safe to assume he's no longer in control.

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

Catalyst is blown to pieces with the Citadel, so I think it's safe to assume he's no longer in control.

Wrong point in time.

Before the Crucible fires, not after.

[OMTING52601]

o Ventus wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Which of this goes against the idea of organic-synthetic conflict, or that it will ultimately end badly for organics?

The Catalyst sort of says to you "The created will always rebel against their creators", when they haven't ever done it, EVER.

Even with organic components Reapers would still count as synthetic life / AI. "Shackled" is the term used for machines with sentience but their wills chained to certain programming, when you choose Control or Destroy the Reapers all stop shooting things, suggesting something changed.

They stop shooting because they're either under Shepard's rule... Or dead. Ever stop and think that THAT could be why they stop acting? Up until the Crucible fires, they're still shooting our ships and killing people, you can take a look out the window and see for yourself. The Catalyst still controls them.

Yes they have. Javik recounts the story of the synthetic uprising in his own cycle, one he clearly states was begun by the synthetics, not their organic creators.

Second, we can't know what happened to create the Catalyst - the game doesn't make that clear. For all we know, the Catalyst was like that one Geth we see in the data cluster who is worried for the Quarian fighting to protect it. Or not. 

As to the Catalysts control, he says he controls the Reapers, that they are his solution, but his doesn't clarify. So, for all Shep knows the Catalyst's control is more like the control of the President over the military complex, and less like 24/7/365 total and absolute control down to the minutest detail of action. Meaning the Reapers may, and based on the in-game content it's likely, have a significant degree of autonomous control.

[PsyrenY]

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

Catalyst is blown to pieces with the Citadel, so I think it's safe to assume he's no longer in control.

Wrong point in time.

Before the Crucible fires, not after.

Of course he's in control before it fires. He won't relinquish control until you've used it.

[OMTING52601]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

 Even if the latter is what happens, the fear of synthetics will never truly go away, not as long as we remain inferior fleshbags ourselves. It's too volatile a situation for decades, never mind millennia.

Guess it's a good thing that the Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future.

Problem?

The same scene happens if one chooses Synthesis.

[o Ventus]

OMTING52601 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Which of this goes against the idea of organic-synthetic conflict, or that it will ultimately end badly for organics?

The Catalyst sort of says to you "The created will always rebel against their creators", when they haven't ever done it, EVER.

Even with organic components Reapers would still count as synthetic life / AI. "Shackled" is the term used for machines with sentience but their wills chained to certain programming, when you choose Control or Destroy the Reapers all stop shooting things, suggesting something changed.

They stop shooting because they're either under Shepard's rule... Or dead. Ever stop and think that THAT could be why they stop acting? Up until the Crucible fires, they're still shooting our ships and killing people, you can take a look out the window and see for yourself. The Catalyst still controls them.

Yes they have. Javik recounts the story of the synthetic uprising in his own cycle, one he clearly states was begun by the synthetics, not their organic creators.

Second, we can't know what happened to create the Catalyst - the game doesn't make that clear. For all we know, the Catalyst was like that one Geth we see in the data cluster who is worried for the Quarian fighting to protect it. Or not. 

As to the Catalysts control, he says he controls the Reapers, that they are his solution, but his doesn't clarify. So, for all Shep knows the Catalyst's control is more like the control of the President over the military complex, and less like 24/7/365 total and absolute control down to the minutest detail of action. Meaning the Reapers may, and based on the in-game content it's likely, have a significant degree of autonomous control.

Javik makes 2 mentions of synthetics fighting organics. The Metacon War and the zha'til. He doesn't ever say how the Metacon War got started, whether it was organic fault or synthetic. Baseless point. The zha'til were helping the zha, but then then Reapers came in and meddled with their programming. No rebellion there.

Who said anything about the creation of the Catalyst?

What kind of jerkass has control over a group of omnicidal half robot/organic starships, but doesn't have control over them, like you say?

[o Ventus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

Catalyst is blown to pieces with the Citadel, so I think it's safe to assume he's no longer in control.

Wrong point in time.

Before the Crucible fires, not after.

Of course he's in control before it fires. He won't relinquish control until you've used it.

That's the whole point I was trying to make. Whoever it was I was talking to said the Catalyst loses control as Shepard is talking to it, not after the Crucible fires.

[jtav]

o Ventus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

jtav wrote...

Catalyst is blown to pieces with the Citadel, so I think it's safe to assume he's no longer in control.

Wrong point in time.

Before the Crucible fires, not after.

Of course he's in control before it fires. He won't relinquish control until you've used it.

He lost control when the Crucible docked in the leak, hence why he brought you up there. That may be what they were referring to

That's the whole point I was trying to make. Whoever it was I was talking to said the Catalyst loses control as Shepard is talking to it, not after the Crucible fires.

[Heeden]

o Ventus wrote...

1. It isn't a rebellion when it's self defense against genocide. Would you rather they sit down and die?

Hell no, the Geth rock. I'm head-canonning them back to life as we speak. The point is it was the will of their creators for them to sit down and die, the Geth rebelled against that will. Therefore we have at least one example of AI rebelling against their creators.

2. After she, as a sentient and sapient being with free will, found out how inhumane they were. It isn't like she went on a killing rampage and burned down orphanages.

It's still an example of an AI rebelling against her creators, something you claimed never happened.

3. Yeah, after the Crucible fires. The Reapers have no reason to leave in Synthesis. They just... Do. There's still nothing to imply the Catalyst doesn't control them. After Shepard jumps in the beam, the Catalyst doesn't ever come back into view, same goes for the other endings. It doesn't mean the Catalyst lost control or died.

Destroy and Synthesis both have the Citadel explode, but I suppose the Catalyst could survive that if you want. I just figured without the Reaper cycle to enact they would no longer be shackled to anything.

[o Ventus]

Heeden wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. It isn't a rebellion when it's self defense against genocide. Would you rather they sit down and die?

Hell no, the Geth rock. I'm head-canonning them back to life as we speak. The point is it was the will of their creators for them to sit down and die, the Geth rebelled against that will. Therefore we have at least one example of AI rebelling against their creators.

2. After she, as a sentient and sapient being with free will, found out how inhumane they were. It isn't like she went on a killing rampage and burned down orphanages.

It's still an example of an AI rebelling against her creators, something you claimed never happened.

3. Yeah, after the Crucible fires. The Reapers have no reason to leave in Synthesis. They just... Do. There's still nothing to imply the Catalyst doesn't control them. After Shepard jumps in the beam, the Catalyst doesn't ever come back into view, same goes for the other endings. It doesn't mean the Catalyst lost control or died.

Destroy and Synthesis both have the Citadel explode, but I suppose the Catalyst could survive that if you want. I just figured without the Reaper cycle to enact they would no longer be shackled to anything.

1. This point would hold water if the geth weren't sentient and/or sapient, and weren't defending their basic right to live.

2. She still didn't rebel. If anything, what EDI did is more akin to quitting your job than a rebellion. She just stopped working for them. The only reason she's currently fighting them is because Joker is in control of the Normandy, and Joker operates under Shepard, who opposes Cerberus.

3. You must be a ninja, since you just dodged the point.

[KingZayd]

Heeden wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

1. It isn't a rebellion when it's self defense against genocide. Would you rather they sit down and die?

Hell no, the Geth rock. I'm head-canonning them back to life as we speak. The point is it was the will of their creators for them to sit down and die, the Geth rebelled against that will. Therefore we have at least one example of AI rebelling against their creators.

Actually, they didn't rebel until the Quarian rebels told them to. Before they were complying. Some of their creators wanted them to die. Some of their creators wanted them to fight. Either way they were going to end up not complying with one group's wishes. Not really fair to count that as evidence of rebellion. It's about as valid as ordering some robots you created to disobey you and taking the results as evidence,

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 12:02 .

[PsyrenY]

jtav wrote...

He lost control when the Crucible docked in the leak, hence why he brought you up there. That may be what they were referring to

That's the whole point I was trying to make. Whoever it was I was talking to said the Catalyst loses control as Shepard is talking to it, not after the Crucible fires.

It's a bit tricky. The Reapers continue marauding if you don't do anything (including destroying the Crucible) so he has a measure of control still. But he is also compelled to bring you up there and give you a chance to end the cycle. So a more accurate description I think would be "he retains control, so long as Shepard doesn't take any of the Crucible's choices."

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...


Actually, they didn't rebel until the Quarian rebels told them to. Before they were complying. Some of their creators wanted them to die. Some of their creators wanted them to fight. Either way they were going to end up not complying with one group's wishes. Not really fair to count that as evidence of rebellion. It's about as valid as ordering some robots you created to disobey you and taking the results as evidence,

Not true at all. Legion explicitly shows you the first Geth to fight back - a farming unit that picked up a sniper rifle to defend less intelligent domestic platforms while they escaped. It did so on its own - not at Quarian direction, and not to protect pro-Geth Quarians either. There were no Quarians around to tell it to defend itself.

[OMTING52601]

o Ventus wrote...

Javik makes 2 mentions of synthetics fighting organics. The Metacon War and the zha'til. He doesn't ever say how the Metacon War got started, whether it was organic fault or synthetic. Baseless point. The zha'til were helping the zha, but then then Reapers came in and meddled with their programming. No rebellion there.

Who said anything about the creation of the Catalyst?

What kind of jerkass has control over a group of omnicidal half robot/organic starships, but doesn't have control over them, like you say?

I'll see if I can find a link to the full Metacon War dialogue for you. In it Javik does, actually, say the Zha created the Zha'til(as an AI they stuck in their(the Zha) own bodies to help them survive on their dying planet, but that once the AI was in, it took control of the host. Then, the Zha'til bred offspring to be used as a slave race. 



3:30 is where he talks about the Zha'til. Lasts like a minute. BTW, the wiki has it wrong. I've actually sent several notes about this, to no avail. The information on the Prothean page isn't all correct either, but I digress. Javik states, at least in a Paragon run, that the Protheans had begun to turn the tide in the Metacon War, but that then the Reapers showed up and started their mess. Sorry, this clip is from a Renegade run and I don't know that those dialogues are there. 
Uh, the same kind of jerkass who needs a Reaper Vanguard to haul it to the Citadel to call the rest of the Reapers in when it's time to start the Harvest? You know, instead of doing it himself, since he's already on the Citadel and everything? I'm not saying the Catalyst has no control of the Reapers. I'm saying I don't think it's the kind of Overlord control you do.

edited for format. 

Modifié par OMTING52601, 14 juin 2012 - 12:20 .

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


Actually, they didn't rebel until the Quarian rebels told them to. Before they were complying. Some of their creators wanted them to die. Some of their creators wanted them to fight. Either way they were going to end up not complying with one group's wishes. Not really fair to count that as evidence of rebellion. It's about as valid as ordering some robots you created to disobey you and taking the results as evidence,

Not true at all. Legion explicitly shows you the first Geth to fight back - a farming unit that picked up a sniper rifle to defend less intelligent domestic platforms while they escaped. It did so on its own - not at Quarian direction, and not to protect pro-Geth Quarians either. There were no Quarians around to tell it to defend itself.

It also, shows you that the Quarian rebels were unsuccessfully urging the Geth to defend themselves before that. So the Geth were already defying some of their masters by not rebelling at first. At least that's what I remember?

Modifié par KingZayd, 14 juin 2012 - 12:27 .

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

It also, shows you that the Quarian rebels were unsuccessfully urging the Geth to defend themselves before that. So the Geth were already defying some of their masters by not rebelling at first.

Actually, they were urging the military/police to leave the Geth alone, and trying to escape without fighting. (Note the "safehouses" mentioned later in the archive.) Never did they urge the Geth to fight back.

Picking up the gun was significant because the Geth chose to fight back totally on their own. And even if Quarians had been trying to get them to do that beforehand, there were none around when they finally chose to do so.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

It also, shows you that the Quarian rebels were unsuccessfully urging the Geth to defend themselves before that. So the Geth were already defying some of their masters by not rebelling at first.

Actually, they were urging the military/police to leave the Geth alone, and trying to escape without fighting. (Note the "safehouses" mentioned later in the archive.) Never did they urge the Geth to fight back.

Picking up the gun was significant because the Geth chose to fight back totally on their own. And even if Quarians had been trying to get them to do that beforehand, there were none around when they finally chose to do so.

hmm OK. I'll take your word for it now. I'll watch the video when it loads later (my internet is irritatingly slow :/)

[o Ventus]

OMTING52601 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Javik makes 2 mentions of synthetics fighting organics. The Metacon War and the zha'til. He doesn't ever say how the Metacon War got started, whether it was organic fault or synthetic. Baseless point. The zha'til were helping the zha, but then then Reapers came in and meddled with their programming. No rebellion there.

Who said anything about the creation of the Catalyst?

What kind of jerkass has control over a group of omnicidal half robot/organic starships, but doesn't have control over them, like you say?

I'll see if I can find a link to the full Metacon War dialogue for you. In it Javik does, actually, say the Zha created the Zha'til(as an AI they stuck in their(the Zha) own bodies to help them survive on their dying planet, but that once the AI was in, it took control of the host. Then, the Zha'til bred offspring to be used as a slave race. 



3:30 is where he talks about the Zha'til. Lasts like a minute. BTW, the wiki has it wrong. I've actually sent several notes about this, to no avail. The information on the Prothean page isn't all correct either, but I digress. Javik states, at least in a Paragon run, that the Protheans had begun to turn the tide in the Metacon War, but that then the Reapers showed up and started their mess. Sorry, this clip is from a Renegade run and I don't know that those dialogues are there. 
Uh, the same kind of jerkass who needs a Reaper Vanguard to haul it to the Citadel to call the rest of the Reapers in when it's time to start the Harvest? You know, instead of doing it himself, since he's already on the Citadel and everything? I'm not saying the Catalyst has no control of the Reapers. I'm saying I don't think it's the kind of Overlord control you do.

edited for format. 

I'm not wrong about the zha'til. Javik makes 2 different mentions of them. 1st he says that they took control of the zha's bodies, and that's it. After that, he elaborates on the ordeal and explains how the Reapers meddled with the nanites in the zha's bodies.

[Luxure]

So, you want to get turned into a robot without you knowing that, or you'd prefer them taking your car ? Oh wait, you lose the car no matter what. Bam, Synthesis ...bad.

[jla0644]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You say I avoid attacking Synthesis? I've beaten it over the ****ing skull with ethical and political implications and everyone scatters like startled birds.

lol you really believe that, don't you?

Taboo-XX wrote...

I can make that Anti-Synthesis Compendium like I said. Nothing would make me happier. It's about time the damn thing was stopped under the heel of a boot.

Spoken like a true defender of human rights. Snuff out any idea you don't like -- the cornerstone of a free and democratic society.

[clennon8]

Not all ideas are precious butterflies. Some ideas deserve to be squashed. :renegade fist:

[InHarmsWay]

clennon8 wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Shepard: "You know, for the last three years, I've been trying to find a way to destroy the Reapers so they'll stop wiping out entire civilizations as they've been doing for countless millions of years. But five minutes ago, some ghost kid just told me the Reapers were his idea. So now instead of destroying the Reapers - which I can do - I'll go ahead and take a wild flyer on this merge all synthetics and organics into a single DNA framework thingie. I don't really know what it does, but I'm sure it will be fine."

Me, Anderson, Hackett, Tali, Garrus, Liara, Ashley/Kaidan: "FUUUUU..."

Except wiping out an entire peaceful sentient race wasn't on that list.

Legion: FUUUUUU...

Pure speculation, of course, but if Legion were there, he'd probably say "Shepard Commander. You must destroy the Old Machines."

"There will be no more compromise with the Old Machines." -Geth Prime, at earth base

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

 Even if the latter is what happens, the fear of synthetics will never truly go away, not as long as we remain inferior fleshbags ourselves. It's too volatile a situation for decades, never mind millennia.

Guess it's a good thing that the Star Gazer scene takes place ten thousand years in the future.

Problem?

Uh... to get that scene, you've either (a) hit the reset button on all synthetics, ( maintaned your own fleet of super-synthetics to keep any others in check, or © accelerated organics to match synthetics, thus removing the issue entirely. So no, no problems.

There is no Stargazer without first using the Crucible... remember?

That isn't what I meant. It means that regardless of what you choose we're safe for at least ten thousand years.

ALL the choices are valid. That's what the scene means. EVERYONE made "their" best choice.

Only two choices create a lasting effect on the Galaxy. You yourself said that fear of each other was the driving force behind your choice.

Transhumanism does NOT equal enforcing authoritarian measures on everything in the Galaxy.

You remove a fear by force, out of an appeal to probability, which is a fallacy. All you've done is violated everyone's right to consent to prevent something that may never happen.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 14 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Hey Taboo, I made this post for you...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

On a side note, I was just thinking last night about how completely ironic it is to point the finger at Synthesis and its supporters for fascism, whilst ignoring the rest of the series and other players completely for worse things.

This game allows for the player to commit genocide on multiple occaisions: the krogan, the quarians, the rachni... in some cases the player is validated for making the decision to do so. In ME3, the best outcome of the genophage arc is to sabotage the genophage with Eve alive (Eve accumulates more War Assets than saving Mordin/Padok). Why does that not alarm Taboo and Godwin Patrol - becuase it doesn't fit some textbook definition? I'd say these things are closer to N@zism than anything Synthesis does. And many players openly support some of these paths.

Why do synthesis supporters get flak for choosing the path that they think is best for everyone, when posters on this board openly discuss how they kill off squadmates for no other reason than "eh, I didn't like him/her so I took the first chance I could to kill him/her" and other borderline psychopathic thoughts?

What about completely inconsequential outcomes of political assasination... there were 0 ramifications for killing Joram Talid. Letting the council live or die does nothing, they are always incompetenant and non-commital. So it's always up to the military to step in and taking matters into their own hands to save the galaxy. Not once, not twice, but in all three freaking games. If that's not a fascist ideal to you...

There's a reason why Godwin's law is laughed at on the world-wide-web. Because it is ridiculous, 99.9% of the time it is invoked (and no, this is not that .1%). If you want to continue perpetrating it - power to you. Just don't expect me to take your seriously. For that matter, very few others will.

[Taboo]

I have spoken, at length about Destroy.

What you have done here, is straw man the argument. You have proven, once again that you are entirely incapable of having a debate without resorting to a fallacy to back up your opinions. We are talking about Synthesis in here, not Destroy. If you'd like, we can create a Destroy thread.

The Genophage, by it's very nature fits one of the official descriptions of genocide, the official description is "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group". By not curing the Genophage, you allow Genocide to continue.