1256 réponses à ce sujet

[MerchantGOL]

InHarmsWay wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Shepard: "You know, for the last three years, I've been trying to find a way to destroy the Reapers so they'll stop wiping out entire civilizations as they've been doing for countless millions of years. But five minutes ago, some ghost kid just told me the Reapers were his idea. So now instead of destroying the Reapers - which I can do - I'll go ahead and take a wild flyer on this merge all synthetics and organics into a single DNA framework thingie. I don't really know what it does, but I'm sure it will be fine."

Me, Anderson, Hackett, Tali, Garrus, Liara, Ashley/Kaidan: "FUUUUU..."

Except wiping out an entire peaceful sentient race wasn't on that list.

Legion: FUUUUUU...

Pure speculation, of course, but if Legion were there, he'd probably say "Shepard Commander. You must destroy the Old Machines."

"There will be no more compromise with the Old Machines." -Geth Prime, at earth base

a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

[Heeden]

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

[Taboo]

Dogbots. The biggest scar to ever grace the face of art.

Dogbots. ****ing Dogbots.

[MerchantGOL]

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

[o Ventus]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

Those pesky damn fans not liking something they paid ~$60+ for, how dare they?

[Taboo]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

Bots. Bots. Bots.

[InHarmsWay]

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Half of Merchant's statement is incomprehensible. It's filled with too many spelling errors. All I can get from it is that I'm wrong somehow.

Modifié par InHarmsWay, 14 juin 2012 - 03:38 .

[MerchantGOL]

o Ventus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

Those pesky damn fans not liking something they paid ~$60+ for, how dare they?

pesky  damn fans  complaining about it like  petulant children, neeeding thigns spelt out to them, and in gneral just being but hurt it  didnt end like their fanfictions

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have spoken, at length about Destroy.

What you have done here, is straw man the argument. You have proven, once again that you are entirely incapable of having a debate without resorting to a fallacy to back up your opinions. We are talking about Synthesis in here, not Destroy. If you'd like, we can create a Destroy thread.

The Genophage, by it's very nature fits one of the official descriptions of genocide, the official description is "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group". By not curing the Genophage, you allow Genocide to continue.

???

The word "Destroy" is nowhere in my post - where did you get that from?

I was just wondering... you rail fanatically against synthesis on a daily basis because you see it as having pro-fascist implications in it, telling its supporters they have no right to choose it. You, and apparently a coalition of professionals, are watching the extended-cut closely to see whether or not this is trying to promote fascism.

But what about the rest of the game? What about the part where condemning a race to slow genocide is treated as the "right" decision in certain situations - and is even endorsed? What do you tell players who kill off their squadmates for no other reason than "hurr, I don't like him/her." What about the fact that it shows politicans as incompetant and unable to resolve any problems, and that the military is always stepping in to save the day?

Is Synthesis really the only thing you see as ethically uncomfortable in this whole series?

[o Ventus]

MerchantGOL wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

Those pesky damn fans not liking something they paid ~$60+ for, how dare they?

pesky  damn fans  complaining about it like  petulant children, neeeding thigns spelt out to them, and in gneral just being but hurt it  didnt end like their fanfictions

I take you haven't actually spoken to an anti-ender, then, if that's how you see us.

I also take it English isn't your first language.

[JesseLee202]

MerchantGOL wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

Those pesky damn fans not liking something they paid ~$60+ for, how dare they?

pesky  damn fans  complaining about it like  petulant children, neeeding thigns spelt out to them, and in gneral just being but hurt it  didnt end like their fanfictions

So you like da plot holes the size of the milky way? good for you man! 

[MerchantGOL]

JesseLee202 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

Heeden wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...
a statment made with out knowing all the details, i doubt it would say the same thing if you said "i can kill them but that means you all die, not might diie you do die, meanign  legiosns acrafic eis meaningless, and you will never get that future you wanted for your kind"

The text in your signature, so true.

Glad you agree, Bioware deserve better [and smarter] fans.

Those pesky damn fans not liking something they paid ~$60+ for, how dare they?

pesky  damn fans  complaining about it like  petulant children, neeeding thigns spelt out to them, and in gneral just being but hurt it  didnt end like their fanfictions

So you like da plot holes the size of the milky way? good for you man! 

Listen just because, it went over your head dosen't make it a plot hole.

Most of the "plot holes" can be explaind paying atention, to the codex, dialouge, or just using your head.

Take senthesis for Example, Its not space magic, We know  from the codex that the reapers indoctrination/Husk effect is caused by their electromagnecti feild, additonaly We see in the evolution comic that even their artifacts can directly creat husks,  implant organics via energy. The Senthesis Feild is  just that on a massive level.

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have spoken, at length about Destroy.

What you have done here, is straw man the argument. You have proven, once again that you are entirely incapable of having a debate without resorting to a fallacy to back up your opinions. We are talking about Synthesis in here, not Destroy. If you'd like, we can create a Destroy thread.

The Genophage, by it's very nature fits one of the official descriptions of genocide, the official description is "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group". By not curing the Genophage, you allow Genocide to continue.

???

The word "Destroy" is nowhere in my post - where did you get that from?

I was just wondering... you rail fanatically against synthesis on a daily basis because you see it as having pro-fascist implications in it, telling its supporters they have no right to choose it. You, and apparently a coalition of professionals, are watching the extended-cut closely to see whether or not this is trying to promote fascism.

But what about the rest of the game? What about the part where condemning a race to slow genocide is treated as the "right" decision in certain situations - and is even endorsed? What do you tell players who kill off their squadmates for no other reason than "hurr, I don't like him/her." What about the fact that it shows politicans as incompetant and unable to resolve any problems, and that the military is always stepping in to save the day?

Is Synthesis really the only thing you see as ethically uncomfortable in this whole series?

Most politicians are inept, as is the military. If it wasn't for politicians in today's world we wouldn't have as much military interference. I am not watching anything to make sure it is Pro anything, I seriously doubt Bioware has  any idea what they are playing with. Neither did Christopher Nolan when he made The Dark Knight. But the fascism is there, whether I like it or not. That film isn't very popular with a lot of people in Europe, for that reason.

I am anti-war, but not anti-soldier. Whether I like it or not, someone has to be ready to fight if the moment arises. I have stated as much when I spoke of World War II and the United States intervention. It was only as ethical so as far as the US stopping the opposing force, which we did. Vietnam was political. Iraq and Afghanistan were political. Those are unethical conflicts.

No, I don't see Synthesis as the only ethical uncomfortable thing in the entire series. I do not kill the Rachni, I cure the Krogan, because I believe that all things wish to coexist without violence, so as long as they do not have any interference from higher powers.

If Wrex and Eve are around, the Krogan will prosper. The Rachni Queen keeps her promise. I keep all my squadmates alive. I do not enact things out of fear, as you do.

You choose Synthesis, that is the difference. That is why I get so angry.

[JesseLee202]

Listen just because, it went over your head dosen't make it a plot hole.

Most of the "plot holes" can be explaind paying atention, to the codex, dialouge, or just using your head.

Take senthesis for Example, Its not space magic, We know  from the codex that the reapers indoctrination/Husk effect is caused by their electromagnecti feild, additonaly We see in the evolution comic that even their artifacts can directly creat husks,  implant organics via energy. The Senthesis Feild is  just that on a massive level.

Nothing went "over my head". I suspect that the codex says why Joker is running away from the battle while everyone else stays to fight? Yeah I bet it does. I bet the codex also tells us how shep survives an explosion the size of the presidium in the destroy ending... Yeah, your right, I should brush up on the codex... silly me. I forgot I'm just too stupid to understand anything that happens ingame.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 14 juin 2012 - 04:05 .

[MerchantGOL]

JesseLee202 wrote...



Nothing went "over my head". I suspect that the codex says why Joker is running away from the battle while everyone else stays to fight? Yeah I bet it does. I bet the codex also tells us how shep survives an explosion the size of the presidium in the destroy ending... Yeah, your right, I should brush up on the codex... silly me. I forgot I'm just too stupid to understand anything that happens ingame.

I have stated many times the  joker thing is the only thing i can't explain, and don't like personaly about the ending

as  for  how shepard Survives, its shepard, he survives **** like that, He survived sovriegins leg smashing intot he citadel right on top of him, he survieved falling int he collector base,  he survided takeing a dradnaught cannon to the face, He survives  ,beside all we get is a breath to implies survial.  probly the area he that he was in/ got blown too was realtivly intact, its not that big of a leap.

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 14 juin 2012 - 04:10 .

[Obvakhi]

clennon8 wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Shepard: "You know, for the last three years, I've been trying to find a way to destroy the Reapers so they'll stop wiping out entire civilizations as they've been doing for countless millions of years. But five minutes ago, some ghost kid just told me the Reapers were his idea. So now instead of destroying the Reapers - which I can do - I'll go ahead and take a wild flyer on this merge all synthetics and organics into a single DNA framework thingie. I don't really know what it does, but I'm sure it will be fine."

Me, Anderson, Hackett, Tali, Garrus, Liara, Ashley/Kaidan: "FUUUUU..."

Except wiping out an entire peaceful sentient race wasn't on that list.

Legion: FUUUUUU...

Pure speculation, of course, but if Legion were there, he'd probably say "Shepard Commander. You must destroy the Old Machines."

If Destroy was the only option, sure. But have you seen what happens if you side with the Quarians? Legion attacks Shepard... doesn't seem like he'd favor Destroy.

[o Ventus]

MerchantGOL wrote...

Take senthesis for Example, Its not space magic, We know  from the codex that the reapers indoctrination/Husk effect is caused by their electromagnecti feild, additonaly We see in the evolution comic that even their artifacts can directly creat husks,  implant organics via energy. The Senthesis Feild is  just that on a massive level.

...

I had never once, in all my life, thought that someone could possibly be as stupid as this.

I think even people who are pro-synthesis mock the words you say with glee.

[JesseLee202]

MerchantGOL wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...



Nothing went "over my head". I suspect that the codex says why Joker is running away from the battle while everyone else stays to fight? Yeah I bet it does. I bet the codex also tells us how shep survives an explosion the size of the presidium in the destroy ending... Yeah, your right, I should brush up on the codex... silly me. I forgot I'm just too stupid to understand anything that happens ingame.

I have stated many times the  joker thing is the only thing i can't explain, and don't like personaly about the ending

as  for  how shepard Survives, its shepard, he survives **** like that, He survived sovriegins leg smashing intot he citadel right on top of him, he survieved falling int he collector base,  he survided takeing a dradnaught cannon to the face, He survives  ,beside all we get is a breath to implies survial.  probly the area he that he was in/ got blown too was realtivly intact, its not that big of a leap.

And there we have it! Those are the plotholes I was reffering to! As I said, nothing went over my head, and its clear you have no clue why people actually dislike the ending. My reasons are plotholes, and the ABC ending with terrible options. Synthesis is the worst of all 3. Please do not make this mistake again and assume I cannot grasp the concept given to me. 

I got work in the morning so I'm going to bed, don't expect a reply tonight.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 14 juin 2012 - 04:17 .

[MerchantGOL]

JesseLee202 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...



Nothing went "over my head". I suspect that the codex says why Joker is running away from the battle while everyone else stays to fight? Yeah I bet it does. I bet the codex also tells us how shep survives an explosion the size of the presidium in the destroy ending... Yeah, your right, I should brush up on the codex... silly me. I forgot I'm just too stupid to understand anything that happens ingame.

I have stated many times the  joker thing is the only thing i can't explain, and don't like personaly about the ending

as  for  how shepard Survives, its shepard, he survives **** like that, He survived sovriegins leg smashing intot he citadel right on top of him, he survieved falling int he collector base,  he survided takeing a dradnaught cannon to the face, He survives  ,beside all we get is a breath to implies survial.  probly the area he that he was in/ got blown too was realtivly intact, its not that big of a leap.

And there we have it! Those are the plotholes I was reffering to! As I said nothing went over my head, and its clear you have no clue why people actually dislike the ending. My reasons are plotholes, and the ABC ending with terrible options. Synthesis is the worst of all 3. Please do not make this mistake again and assume I cannot grasp the concept given to me. 

I got work in the morning so I'm going to bed, don't expect a reply tonight.

But obviously you can't, if you need some ting as easy to "how did he maybe survive"  explained to you it means you can't or are  simply unwillign to understand or accept whats given to you. its not a plot hole that shepard takes a breath, if you don't understand how he could posibly survive thats your problem. the only valid plot hole is the thing with joker which i have admitted to.

I get why people are upsset, they dont get their happy ending,  and theirs not a big exlenationt hat spells every thing out to you at the end, but aalmost every, "plot hole" is easily explaind by paying the **** attention!

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Most politicians are inept, as is the military. If it wasn't for politicians in today's world we wouldn't have as much military interference. I am not watching anything to make sure it is Pro anything, I seriously doubt Bioware has  any idea what they are playing with. Neither did Christopher Nolan when he made The Dark Knight. But the fascism is there, whether I like it or not. That film isn't very popular with a lot of people in Europe, for that reason.

Okay I'll bite - could you please explain (or point me to a post that explains) why Synthesis has such a high resonance of fascism with you, when to my mind Control and Destroy have more in common with the vaguely defined ideals of such a political system.

Modifié par Heeden, 14 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I have spoken, at length about Destroy.

What you have done here, is straw man the argument. You have proven, once again that you are entirely incapable of having a debate without resorting to a fallacy to back up your opinions. We are talking about Synthesis in here, not Destroy. If you'd like, we can create a Destroy thread.

The Genophage, by it's very nature fits one of the official descriptions of genocide, the official description is "imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group". By not curing the Genophage, you allow Genocide to continue.

???

The word "Destroy" is nowhere in my post - where did you get that from?

I was just wondering... you rail fanatically against synthesis on a daily basis because you see it as having pro-fascist implications in it, telling its supporters they have no right to choose it. You, and apparently a coalition of professionals, are watching the extended-cut closely to see whether or not this is trying to promote fascism.

But what about the rest of the game? What about the part where condemning a race to slow genocide is treated as the "right" decision in certain situations - and is even endorsed? What do you tell players who kill off their squadmates for no other reason than "hurr, I don't like him/her." What about the fact that it shows politicans as incompetant and unable to resolve any problems, and that the military is always stepping in to save the day?

Is Synthesis really the only thing you see as ethically uncomfortable in this whole series?

Most politicians are inept, as is the military. If it wasn't for politicians in today's world we wouldn't have as much military interference. I am not watching anything to make sure it is Pro anything, I seriously doubt Bioware has  any idea what they are playing with. Neither did Christopher Nolan when he made The Dark Knight. But the fascism is there, whether I like it or not. That film isn't very popular with a lot of people in Europe, for that reason.

I am anti-war, but not anti-soldier. Whether I like it or not, someone has to be ready to fight if the moment arises. I have stated as much when I spoke of World War II and the United States intervention. It was only as ethical so as far as the US stopping the opposing force, which we did. Vietnam was political. Iraq and Afghanistan were political. Those are unethical conflicts.

No, I don't see Synthesis as the only ethical uncomfortable thing in the entire series. I do not kill the Rachni, I cure the Krogan, because I believe that all things wish to coexist without violence, so as long as they do not have any interference from higher powers.

If Wrex and Eve are around, the Krogan will prosper. The Rachni Queen keeps her promise. I keep all my squadmates alive. I do not enact things out of fear, as you do.

You choose Synthesis, that is the difference. That is why I get so angry.

The point I made about the politicians/military thing is how in all three games, the galaxy was faced with a problem and politicians proved uttlerly useless at solving it all three times. Instead, the military steps in and saves the day: ME1, ME2, and ME3. Many would call that a fascist theme.

Sabotaging the genophage cure is basically applauded in this game when Wreav is in charge of the krogan instead of Wrex. The player is well-rewarded in war assets, and Garrus is basically impressed with you. Is that not a worrysome message - that it's okay to neuter any race with ideals/leadership you don't agree with and think are a danger?

Also, you don't have to choose synthesis if you don't like and/or don't agree with it. And there is minimal difference in outcome if you choose not to.

[akenn312]

Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek rejuvenation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood through a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics. Fascism seeks to purify the nation of foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture.

Fascism claims to represent a synthesis of cohesive ideas previously divided between traditional political ideologies. To achieve its goals, the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration.

The Catalyst presents that the differences between synthetics and organics are an unavoidable weakness or chos that is causing a degeneration of the galaxy. Per his solutions in two choices particularly he either promotes eradication of the Geth as a species or another choice that promotes a type of galactic purity erasing all individuality to achieve a synthesis. A final evolution. 

Leaving Destroy out of it for now that is another topic. When you choose synthesis you are choosing to purge all previous individuality to promote a new goal of superiority or peace by getting rid of the individual diversity between organics and synthetics. That can be seen as fascism. It's all there in the definition. A fascists goal is a synthesis to one main ideology or a cohesive ideal.

It's there, it doesn't matter if it blows by some it's still in there. Bioware passes this off as art. Well that message in their art can be seen by some as having fascists undertones. This is not an overreaction. Read the top definition and see the similarities with what the Synthesis choice is about and that definition. Again I don't think it is intentional, but it's there and a should not be taken lightly as just a simple choice. So when people see this choice as promoted as the best solution and romanticized there is going to be controversy. 

Modifié par akenn312, 14 juin 2012 - 05:43 .

[Landon7001]

jtav wrote...

My Shep has been brought to the final room. All choices are open to me. I can live in Destroy. Not only that, I have a LI on Earth. And yet, I chose Synthesis. Why? I could have my happy ending. All I have to do is blow the Reapers to hell. It would be so simple…

Except it's not just about me. I've been handed an earthshaking revelation about my enemy. The Reapers are controlled by the Catalyst. Not led. Controlled. They have, at worst, diminished capacity for their actions, and may be de facto indoctrinated themselves. They are victims. Killing them isn't justice. It's vengeance. A couple of major choices excepted, I'm a Paragon. I've tried throughout the series to steer people away from vengeance and offer redemption where I could. If I can't offer my enemy mercy, then I become a hypocrite. No matter what I do, the Catalyst is gone, either because I replaced him or because the Citadel blew up. The one responsible for the mass genocides has been dealt with. And the Reapers leave. They are free to do as they please. The geth who are now well and truly alive will live on and hopefully there will be true peace.

And what about the life that I fought so hard to save? I just altered them in a fundamental way. How dare I? Well, first, humility and seeking consensus really isn't an option here. All choices thrust an enormous change on life in the galaxy. The death of every single synthetic who has chosen to fight by my side. Usurping the power of the closest thing the universe has to a god. I have to choose and choose alone. I'm a Paragon, so killing synthetics when there are other options on the table is right out. Which means the Reapers are still going to be around. Free or under my control, they're still vastly more advanced than organics or the newly-ascended geth. Not only that, whenever I choose it is going to destroy the relay network (except maybe Control-- evidence is contradictory here). Things are going to be very rough for a long time. I choose the option that I believe will give life the best chance going forward. This whole partly-synthetic deal has worked out fairly well for Shepard, with enhanced strength and resistance to poison, and he seems to be the template for going forward. And if I the player go back to the leaked script, the fact that the Catalyst is trying to stop the technological singularity is made explicit. So Synthesis must make it possible for organics to keep up with synthetics. Since the Reapers are still out there, I consider that a very bad thing. And just in case someone decides to create something else along similar lines,organics can contend with them as equals. No more techno-gods cowing us and using technology we can't hope to understand. And we didn't do it by killing them. We took their power for our own and now they must recognize us as equals.

HOW do you know the catalyst is gone and dealt with? explain. elaborate. Did you see it happen? What led you to believe this?  He definately isnt gone in control, I dont think synthesis either....the only way you can even logically infer hes gone is with destroy

[Landon7001]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You've given life a better chance by changing it fundamentally. You've not solved the problem with people hating one another. The Geth can already be dead, so this shouldn't be an issue if they are.

You make a choice based upon an existential fear coupled with a hubris so large it transcends anything ever done by any being ever.

Success meaning more than what is right and wrong was logic used by some terrible, terrible people.

wow....THIS   right on, well said

[Landon7001]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Filling the speculations with your own head-canon works for your own logic. You made guesses as to what each choice actually does, but they're still just guesses.

exactly