1256 réponses à ce sujet

[akenn312]

Heeden wrote...
There's no eugenics specified in Synthesis. Yes there is enforcing change out of fears for an uncertain future but that is not a unique characteristic to fascism, it's pretty much the mandate of any government or organisation that attempts to create order.

So you do admit it is a method to force order on everyone whether they want it or not.

Let's see what are some of the goals of fascism are and if one or two of them could be considered a fascist aesthetic that relates to the choice of synthesis. Again it just has to have a part or two that could be interpreted as a relationship to a fascist goal or ideal. this is all about interpretation of art and meaning not specifics, so it does not specifically have to talk about breeding programs or military poliice states or perfect beings in a utopia ect. Just could a part of this choice be interpreted as a fascist goal.

Let's look:
Fascism strives for strength, order, efficiency, and a crime-free society, but it is done at the cost of freedom, creativity, and individual rights.

So to stop the organic chaos of creating synthetics and create order. Shepard must make a unethical choice that joins synthetics and organics to stop the cycle at the cost of individual rights.

Now is there a relationship? 
Goals of fascism that could relate: Order at the cost of individual rights.

Synthesis goal: Creating order with synthesis at the cost of individual rights.

I'm just saying it's more of a relationship than you think. 

Modifié par akenn312, 15 juin 2012 - 02:22 .

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Yeah, I have to say that saving the Reapers is probably the wackiest justification for Synthesis yet. A complete non-starter.

Why?  If the Catalyst controlled them, and we are offered multiple reasons in the cutscenes that verify he does after the fact, then they weren't responsible for their actions.  Plus, the Reapers, assuming Bioware isn't going to pull something out of complete left field to patch this mess over, are the stored collective intelligence of millions of years worth of galactic civilizations.  Destroying the Reapers is committing galactic genocide countless times over.

The reapers still have some degree of autonomy. There's nothing to imply the Reapers are completely brainwashed or indoctrinated.

Destroying the Reapers is akin to letting the troubled species inside them finally rest in peace. Even if anything of them exists (Which is inherently horse****, but another matter altogether), I doubt omnicide is high on their priority list. Hell, Paragon Shepard says as much to the dying Reaper on Rannoch.

Is it sad that I like debating the ethics of the game more than the game itself?  There is plenty to outright demonstrate the Reapers are being completely controlled, although you get it from an omniscient point of view after Shepard chooses.  Synthesis Reapers break off the attack immediately after everyone goes green.  Control Reapers do whatever the hell Shep wants. 

So we see when they are free, they don't attack mixed synth/organics although they had no problem nuking Shepard, various cyborgs, and all other synthetics and organics in the galaxy combined beforehand. 

We see that they can be completely controlled by Shepard, which leaves us no reason to doubt that the Catalyst was controlling them before.  Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated most of the time until Shepard forced him to confront the reality; the Reapers could have felt similarly or moreover could have been such tools that their every response to Shepard was dictated by the Catalyst.  And who says the species in a Reaper are so troubled they'd prefer to die?  Maybe it's VR beach volley ball on Christmas day every day inside most Reapers?  Maybe it's joy to the punks, joy to the skins, joy to the world and everybody wins?  In game, you have no clue, so your speculations are headcanon.

Your speculations are just as headcanon as anything else.

There is literally nothing to prove the Reapers are under total control. If anything, Sovereign's very existence disproves it. Harbinger in ME2 as well.

I'll ignore how retarded the Reapers are for just running away after Synthesis for the sake of this discussion.

Unless each Reaper has a mini-Matrix inside it, there's, again, NOTHING AT ALL to imply the species inside are unaware (or even "alive").

Are you so certain the Reapers don't just leave because the Synthesis wave, like the Catalyst says, renders the cycle moot, and thus dissolves the reason for the Reapers to stay and kill people?

Again, since the Reapers display some form of autonomy, why would they willingly follow the cycle if they thought they were "in control", to some extent?

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

As Mordin points out, the Collectors have no culture, no art, no nothing.  They are closer to organic VIs than anything.  Genocide implies trying to wipe out a race; I don't think they qualify.

Remind you of someone? 

Sovereign is one of them.

Not at all.  Who knows how many Leonardo DaVinci's Harbinger or Sovereign has running around in his "nation unto himself?"  We have Mordin to tell us about Collector lack of culture.  We have no one to tell us what the internal state of a Reaper collective might be like.  Maybe they spend all that time in between Reapings painting watercolors by the seashore *in their own mind*.  At best, their internal state is beyond anyone's [that I saw] knowledge, and according to several in game sources, simply beyond an individual organic's comprehension.  Arguing that they are cultureless, mindless drones like the Collectors is unsupported by any in game data and contradicted by some of it, as I see it.

[Heeden]

Edited: sorry for the continual derailments.

Modifié par Heeden, 15 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[jtav]

TIM and Saren were autonomous. TIM even thought he was fightimg the Reapers. Indoctrination isn't "Yes, master" but subverting the will so that doing what you want is doing what they want.

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

As Mordin points out, the Collectors have no culture, no art, no nothing.  They are closer to organic VIs than anything.  Genocide implies trying to wipe out a race; I don't think they qualify.

Remind you of someone? 

Sovereign is one of them.

Not at all.  Who knows how many Leonardo DaVinci's Harbinger or Sovereign has running around in his "nation unto himself?"  We have Mordin to tell us about Collector lack of culture.  We have no one to tell us what the internal state of a Reaper collective might be like.  Maybe they spend all that time in between Reapings painting watercolors by the seashore *in their own mind*.  At best, their internal state is beyond anyone's [that I saw] knowledge, and according to several in game sources, simply beyond an individual organic's comprehension.  Arguing that they are cultureless, mindless drones like the Collectors is unsupported by any in game data and contradicted by some of it, as I see it.

I'll say it right now. Just because you "exist" as grey goop doesn't make you alive.

Remember Lilith, Kelly, or Dr. Chakwas on the CB? They didn't look like they were being uplifted in the slightest.

Unless the Reapers had some way to download the memories and ideas of each individual at the same time ('Cause that's not breaking my suspension of disbelief yet), there's nothing left of the species.

Without a brain to store said memories and ideas, how do they exist? Knowing that the memories and ideas are primarily stored in neurons (Nevermind other basic cognitive and motor functions)... They cease to exist when those neurons are destroyed. That's why a growing number of coma patients awaken with brain damage.

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Yeah, I have to say that saving the Reapers is probably the wackiest justification for Synthesis yet. A complete non-starter.

Why?  If the Catalyst controlled them, and we are offered multiple reasons in the cutscenes that verify he does after the fact, then they weren't responsible for their actions.  Plus, the Reapers, assuming Bioware isn't going to pull something out of complete left field to patch this mess over, are the stored collective intelligence of millions of years worth of galactic civilizations.  Destroying the Reapers is committing galactic genocide countless times over.

The reapers still have some degree of autonomy. There's nothing to imply the Reapers are completely brainwashed or indoctrinated.

Destroying the Reapers is akin to letting the troubled species inside them finally rest in peace. Even if anything of them exists (Which is inherently horse****, but another matter altogether), I doubt omnicide is high on their priority list. Hell, Paragon Shepard says as much to the dying Reaper on Rannoch.

Is it sad that I like debating the ethics of the game more than the game itself?  There is plenty to outright demonstrate the Reapers are being completely controlled, although you get it from an omniscient point of view after Shepard chooses.  Synthesis Reapers break off the attack immediately after everyone goes green.  Control Reapers do whatever the hell Shep wants. 

So we see when they are free, they don't attack mixed synth/organics although they had no problem nuking Shepard, various cyborgs, and all other synthetics and organics in the galaxy combined beforehand. 

We see that they can be completely controlled by Shepard, which leaves us no reason to doubt that the Catalyst was controlling them before.  Saren thought he wasn't indoctrinated most of the time until Shepard forced him to confront the reality; the Reapers could have felt similarly or moreover could have been such tools that their every response to Shepard was dictated by the Catalyst.  And who says the species in a Reaper are so troubled they'd prefer to die?  Maybe it's VR beach volley ball on Christmas day every day inside most Reapers?  Maybe it's joy to the punks, joy to the skins, joy to the world and everybody wins?  In game, you have no clue, so your speculations are headcanon.

Your speculations are just as headcanon as anything else.

There is literally nothing to prove the Reapers are under total control. If anything, Sovereign's very existence disproves it. Harbinger in ME2 as well.

I'll ignore how retarded the Reapers are for just running away after Synthesis for the sake of this discussion.

Unless each Reaper has a mini-Matrix inside it, there's, again, NOTHING AT ALL to imply the species inside are unaware (or even "alive").

Are you so certain the Reapers don't just leave because the Synthesis wave, like the Catalyst says, renders the cycle moot, and thus dissolves the reason for the Reapers to stay and kill people?

Again, since the Reapers display some form of autonomy, why would they willingly follow the cycle if they thought they were "in control", to some extent?

We do think they are completely autonomous, right up until the game writers included the Catalyst, and then futher showed us he actually had the goods in the Control ending.  No speculation is needed to know they were controlled and the series already featured Saren and TIM with the illusion of self-control, so it isn't some new theme. 

Now this being fiction, they can "clarify" however they might wish, but control of the Reapers is actually encountered in game, and the idea of the Catalyst being a liar is pure headcanon and silly to boot.  If he were afraid of Shepard's choice, he could have sent a bunch of Reaper troops after him, dropped him off the floaty platform, etc.  Hell, Shep was completely clueless and apparently dying.  How about just don't get him and tell him "Here are your options which include destroying me."?  The best assumption is that the writers played it perfectly straight and the inconsistencies are the result of inconsistent writing, not coherent but occult and deceitful character motives which the writers just decided not to write about.

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

We do think they are completely autonomous, right up until the game writers included the Catalyst, and then futher showed us he actually had the goods in the Control ending.  No speculation is needed to know they were controlled and the series already featured Saren and TIM with the illusion of self-control, so it isn't some new theme. 

Now this being fiction, they can "clarify" however they might wish, but control of the Reapers is actually encountered in game, and the idea of the Catalyst being a liar is pure headcanon and silly to boot.  If he were afraid of Shepard's choice, he could have sent a bunch of Reaper troops after him, dropped him off the floaty platform, etc.  Hell, Shep was completely clueless and apparently dying.  How about just don't get him and tell him "Here are your options which include destroying me."?  The best assumption is that the writers played it perfectly straight and the inconsistencies are the result of inconsistent writing, not coherent but occult and deceitful character motives which the writers just decided not to write about.

1. I didn't say completely autonomous. Partly, not completely. If they were completely autonomous, they would question their actions. If anyone of them is completely autonomous, I would argue it's Sovereign. If he isn't, then the overly convoluted plan of his is pointless and stupid for the sake of being stupid.

2. I never said the Catalyst or anyone else is a liar. Stupid and using knee-jerk logic to a nonexistent problem sure, but not a liar.

[InHarmsWay]

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Yeah, I have to say that saving the Reapers is probably the wackiest justification for Synthesis yet. A complete non-starter.

Why?  If the Catalyst controlled them, and we are offered multiple reasons in the cutscenes that verify he does after the fact, then they weren't responsible for their actions.  Plus, the Reapers, assuming Bioware isn't going to pull something out of complete left field to patch this mess over, are the stored collective intelligence of millions of years worth of galactic civilizations.  Destroying the Reapers is committing galactic genocide countless times over.

The reapers still have some degree of autonomy. There's nothing to imply the Reapers are completely brainwashed or indoctrinated.

Destroying the Reapers is akin to letting the troubled species inside them finally rest in peace. Even if anything of them exists (Which is inherently horse****, but another matter altogether), I doubt omnicide is high on their priority list. Hell, Paragon Shepard says as much to the dying Reaper on Rannoch.

His exact words.

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

I'll say it right now. Just because you "exist" as grey goop doesn't make you alive.

Remember Lilith, Kelly, or Dr. Chakwas on the CB? They didn't look like they were being uplifted in the slightest.

Unless the Reapers had some way to download the memories and ideas of each individual at the same time ('Cause that's not breaking my suspension of disbelief yet), there's nothing left of the species.

Without a brain to store said memories and ideas, how do they exist? Knowing that the memories and ideas are primarily stored in neurons (Nevermind other basic cognitive and motor functions)... They cease to exist when those neurons are destroyed. That's why a growing number of coma patients awaken with brain damage.

Dude!  It is sci-fi magic, holy crap!  How does the grey goop of my own brain generate consciousness out of chemical soup and electricity?  Just accept it in game terms and move on.  The Prothean [you may not have the DLC, so spoiler ahead] knows what people thought, felt and who they were by reading the DNA in their freaking skin flakes and tells us DNA memory retention is a biological imperative and that his trick was common for Protheans. 

The Reapers are millions or billions of years more advanced than Protheans; by the game reasoning there's no reason why grey DNA goop wouldn't be self-aware in a giant AI collective - in fact, I presumed that was the reason for doing it.  They are "reaping" ripe civilizations and storing them.  If they just wanted to nuke them, the whole goop rendering thing would be moot.

I am not headcanoning the Reapers into that state of happy mini-Matrix being.  I am just pointing out you likening them to Collectors, who by game canon are stated to be mindless, cultureless drones, not only has no support, it is contradicted by Reaper testimony on their own state of being as nations unto themselves.  Whatever the hell that means, it means more than one individual inside each Reaper.

[Heeden]

memorysquid wrote...

Dude!  It is sci-fi magic, holy crap!  How does the grey goop of my own brain generate consciousness out of chemical soup and electricity?  Just accept it in game terms and move on.  The Prothean [you may not have the DLC, so spoiler ahead] knows what people thought, felt and who they were by reading the DNA in their freaking skin flakes and tells us DNA memory retention is a biological imperative and that his trick was common for Protheans. 

The Reapers are millions or billions of years more advanced than Protheans; by the game reasoning there's no reason why grey DNA goop wouldn't be self-aware in a giant AI collective - in fact, I presumed that was the reason for doing it.  They are "reaping" ripe civilizations and storing them.  If they just wanted to nuke them, the whole goop rendering thing would be moot.

I am not headcanoning the Reapers into that state of happy mini-Matrix being.  I am just pointing out you likening them to Collectors, who by game canon are stated to be mindless, cultureless drones, not only has no support, it is contradicted by Reaper testimony on their own state of being as nations unto themselves.  Whatever the hell that means, it means more than one individual inside each Reaper.

Popping out of universe for a moment, the idea of a culture "ascending" to a purely virtual state is a posited futurist (like science-fiction but without the magic and smarter clothes) theory for reaching post-scarcity status, a chance to live free from the eternal problem of "not enough resources".

[o Ventus]

InHarmsWay wrote...

His exact words.

404, page not found.

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

Dude!  It is sci-fi magic, holy crap!  How does the grey goop of my own brain generate consciousness out of chemical soup and electricity?  Just accept it in game terms and move on.  The Prothean [you may not have the DLC, so spoiler ahead] knows what people thought, felt and who they were by reading the DNA in their freaking skin flakes and tells us DNA memory retention is a biological imperative and that his trick was common for Protheans. 

The Reapers are millions or billions of years more advanced than Protheans; by the game reasoning there's no reason why grey DNA goop wouldn't be self-aware in a giant AI collective - in fact, I presumed that was the reason for doing it.  They are "reaping" ripe civilizations and storing them.  If they just wanted to nuke them, the whole goop rendering thing would be moot.

I am not headcanoning the Reapers into that state of happy mini-Matrix being.  I am just pointing out you likening them to Collectors, who by game canon are stated to be mindless, cultureless drones, not only has no support, it is contradicted by Reaper testimony on their own state of being as nations unto themselves.  Whatever the hell that means, it means more than one individual inside each Reaper.

Aaaaaaaand there goes any credibility you may have had up to this point.

No offense to you, but your argument deflates like a wet balloon when you say "Just accept it". That defeats any purpose of literary analysis.

Modifié par o Ventus, 15 juin 2012 - 03:05 .

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

We do think they are completely autonomous, right up until the game writers included the Catalyst, and then futher showed us he actually had the goods in the Control ending.  No speculation is needed to know they were controlled and the series already featured Saren and TIM with the illusion of self-control, so it isn't some new theme. 

Now this being fiction, they can "clarify" however they might wish, but control of the Reapers is actually encountered in game, and the idea of the Catalyst being a liar is pure headcanon and silly to boot.  If he were afraid of Shepard's choice, he could have sent a bunch of Reaper troops after him, dropped him off the floaty platform, etc.  Hell, Shep was completely clueless and apparently dying.  How about just don't get him and tell him "Here are your options which include destroying me."?  The best assumption is that the writers played it perfectly straight and the inconsistencies are the result of inconsistent writing, not coherent but occult and deceitful character motives which the writers just decided not to write about.

1. I didn't say completely autonomous. Partly, not completely. If they were completely autonomous, they would question their actions. If anyone of them is completely autonomous, I would argue it's Sovereign. If he isn't, then the overly convoluted plan of his is pointless and stupid for the sake of being stupid.

2. I never said the Catalyst or anyone else is a liar. Stupid and using knee-jerk logic to a nonexistent problem sure, but not a liar.

1. I don't know what partly autonomous means.  If it means, as in Saren's and TIM's case, the ability to rationalize what your controller is forcing you to do after the fact, then it isn't relevant.  Either the Catalyst controls them like he says he does or he doesn't - the game says and then demonstrates that he does and that Shepard also can.  They may be aware of the control or not, which is irrelevant.  If someone can force Reapers to commit genocide or more insidiously force Reapers to decide they OUGHT to commit genocide, and someone else can make Reapers do or decide the opposite, Reapers are not autonomous, i.e. self ruling - partially or otherwise.  Say the Catalyst allowed the freedom to scratch their cloaca while wiping and storing the galaxy, so what?  He apparently didn't allow them the freedom not to Reap the galaxy, which is the relevant point to deciding whether or not they deserve to be wiped out.

2. Fair enough.  My point was that if we take him at face value, he says he controls the Reapers, which undermines your point totally.

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

1. I don't know what partly autonomous means.  If it means, as in Saren's and TIM's case, the ability to rationalize what your controller is forcing you to do after the fact, then it isn't relevant.  Either the Catalyst controls them like he says he does or he doesn't - the game says and then demonstrates that he does and that Shepard also can.  They may be aware of the control or not, which is irrelevant.  If someone can force Reapers to commit genocide or more insidiously force Reapers to decide they OUGHT to commit genocide, and someone else can make Reapers do or decide the opposite, Reapers are not autonomous, i.e. self ruling - partially or otherwise.  Say the Catalyst allowed the freedom to scratch their cloaca while wiping and storing the galaxy, so what?  He apparently didn't allow them the freedom not to Reap the galaxy, which is the relevant point to deciding whether or not they deserve to be wiped out.

2. Fair enough.  My point was that if we take him at face value, he says he controls the Reapers, which undermines your point totally.

Partly autonomous in the sense that the Reapers can control their vocal and motor functions, but the Catalyst ultimately controls their whim and intent.

The Catalyst only says he controls them, he doesn't say to what extent.

[InHarmsWay]

o Ventus wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...

His exact words.

404, page not found.

What the hell hapened here?

Try this::

His exact words.

[Heeden]

I always thought it went something along the lines of;

Harvest race >>> Process genetic/cellular memories in to virtual from >>> Form some sort of abstract algorithm for the Reapers base personality >>> Whatever magic makes AI happen >>> Shackle Reaper to enact the cycle

The control option changes the shackles to Shepards preferences (all the Reapers get a What-Would-Shepard-Do bracelet), Synthesis removes the shackles and allows free-will to reign.

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

Aaaaaaaand there goes any credibility you may have had up to this point.

No offense to you, but your argument deflates like a wet balloon when you say "Just accept it".

When you misquote me, it is not very helpful to your own credibility.  I said to 'just accept it in game terms,' meaning 'they wrote the universe so it works like they say; you can't fight that.'  If they say that tasting skin flakes will let Javik feel Grunt's adolescent struggles, then it happens just like that.  It's called a work of fiction for a reason; they make it all up. 

There's in game evidence that Reapers are a collection of individual consciousnesses; there's in game evidence that DNA carries memory; there's in game evidence that Reapers are full of DNA goop.  Reaping is a synonym for harvesting, as well as death.

So trying to rule out the internal state of being of a Reaper as being precisely some type of mega-Matrix storing a galaxy worth of people as practically improbable is odd.  The objection was that multiple consciousnesses could not arise from rendered people goop.  Why the hell not?  The whole premise of the game is sci-fi hand waving magic and the objections most people are levying to synthesis have nothing to do with anything in the game.  They've made it logically possible that Reapers contain whole galaxies' worth of consciousness.  Someone objecting to the practicality of that based on speculations about how consciousness really works in a human brain makes little sense in a fictive work.

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Aaaaaaaand there goes any credibility you may have had up to this point.

No offense to you, but your argument deflates like a wet balloon when you say "Just accept it".

When you misquote me, it is not very helpful to your own credibility.  I said to 'just accept it in game terms,' meaning 'they wrote the universe so it works like they say; you can't fight that.'  If they say that tasting skin flakes will let Javik feel Grunt's adolescent struggles, then it happens just like that.  It's called a work of fiction for a reason; they make it all up.

There's in game evidence that Reapers are a collection of individual consciousnesses; there's in game evidence that DNA carries memory; there's in game evidence that Reapers are full of DNA goop.  Reaping is a synonym for harvesting, as well as death.

So trying to rule out the internal state of being of a Reaper as being precisely some type of mega-Matrix storing a galaxy worth of people as practically improbable is odd.  The objection was that multiple consciousnesses could not arise from rendered people goop.  Why the hell not?  The whole premise of the game is sci-fi hand waving magic and the objections most people are levying to synthesis have nothing to do with anything in the game.  They've made it logically possible that Reapers contain whole galaxies' worth of consciousness.  Someone objecting to the practicality of that based on speculations about how consciousness really works in a human brain makes little sense in a fictive work.

@bold#1- That doesn't give them a "feel free to break your own lore" card. They have to follow their own rules. The fundamental difference between space magic and deliberate suspension of disbelief is that the latter is retained because the author follows their own rules. How the Reapers store people (and Synthesis, for that matter) are the former. They don't make a single attempt to explain (or just handwave) the process... process.

@bold#2- You mean like Sovereign and Harbinger's continual use of 1st person pronouns?

@bold#3- See #1

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Aaaaaaaand there goes any credibility you may have had up to this point.

No offense to you, but your argument deflates like a wet balloon when you say "Just accept it".

When you misquote me, it is not very helpful to your own credibility.  I said to 'just accept it in game terms,' meaning 'they wrote the universe so it works like they say; you can't fight that.'  If they say that tasting skin flakes will let Javik feel Grunt's adolescent struggles, then it happens just like that.  It's called a work of fiction for a reason; they make it all up.

There's in game evidence that Reapers are a collection of individual consciousnesses; there's in game evidence that DNA carries memory; there's in game evidence that Reapers are full of DNA goop.  Reaping is a synonym for harvesting, as well as death.

So trying to rule out the internal state of being of a Reaper as being precisely some type of mega-Matrix storing a galaxy worth of people as practically improbable is odd.  The objection was that multiple consciousnesses could not arise from rendered people goop.  Why the hell not?  The whole premise of the game is sci-fi hand waving magic and the objections most people are levying to synthesis have nothing to do with anything in the game.  They've made it logically possible that Reapers contain whole galaxies' worth of consciousness.  Someone objecting to the practicality of that based on speculations about how consciousness really works in a human brain makes little sense in a fictive work.

@bold#1- That doesn't give them a "feel free to break your own lore" card. They have to follow their own rules. The fundamental difference between space magic and deliberate suspension of disbelief is that the latter is retained because the author follows their own rules. How the Reapers store people (and Synthesis, for that matter) are the former. They don't make a single attempt to explain (or just handwave) the process... process.

@bold#2- You mean like Sovereign and Harbinger's continual use of 1st person pronouns?

@bold#3- See #1

1)  They should follow their own rules.  They did not, in several instances, because it is a very complex story with multiple authors.  The author is the ultimate arbiter of what happens or not in a work of fiction.  Not saying synthesis or reaping are well written or even adequately defined within the canon.  They are not.  Just saying of the choices presented, synthesis struck me as the one that didn't entail genocide or the insane and repeatedly failed hubris I talked both Saren and TIM into killing themselves over, and watched fail in every single attempt. [Overlord, Tali's dad, TIM, etc.]

2)  I mean like Sovereign saying "We are each a nation unto ourselves," and "Our existence is beyond your comprehension."  Couple that with his statements on how they are harvesting civilizations, memory contained in DNA, etc., and the best you can say is that Reaper's have an unknown internal state, but there must be some reason for all that goopifying.

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

Partly autonomous in the sense that the Reapers can control their vocal and motor functions, but the Catalyst ultimately controls their whim and intent.

The Catalyst only says he controls them, he doesn't say to what extent.

Well, if their whim and intention are being substituted by the Catalyst's will, their partial autonomy is no excuse for blame, now is it?  I am not going to bat for genocide because Sovereign has the freedom to ask Harbinger "How's tricks?" and then scratch his laser hole while the Catalyst forces him to harvest the universe.

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

1)  They should follow their own rules.  They did not, in several instances, because it is a very complex story with multiple authors.  The author is the ultimate arbiter of what happens or not in a work of fiction.  Not saying synthesis or reaping are well written or even adequately defined within the canon.  They are not.  Just saying of the choices presented, synthesis struck me as the one that didn't entail genocide or the insane and repeatedly failed hubris I talked both Saren and TIM into killing themselves over, and watched fail in every single attempt. [Overlord, Tali's dad, TIM, etc.]

2)  I mean like Sovereign saying "We are each a nation unto ourselves," and "Our existence is beyond your comprehension."  Couple that with his statements on how they are harvesting civilizations, memory contained in DNA, etc., and the best you can say is that Reaper's have an unknown internal state, but there must be some reason for all that goopifying.

1. That doesn't excuse anything. Walters and Weekes both admitted to using the Wiki when checking details. Multiple writers should at best entail different styles of telling the story, not "this part of the game is goddamn retarded, while this part is brilliant".

2. I interpret those lines as Sovereign referring to the Reapers as an organization. It paints him as half brain-damaged to refer to himself in first person, then in third person, then back to first person. There very well may not be a reason for the gooping. If they're trying to process and "rescue" humans, then why are they going out of their way to slaughter them wholesale?

[o Ventus]

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Partly autonomous in the sense that the Reapers can control their vocal and motor functions, but the Catalyst ultimately controls their whim and intent.

The Catalyst only says he controls them, he doesn't say to what extent.

Well, if their whim and intention are being substituted by the Catalyst's will, their partial autonomy is no excuse for blame, now is it?  I am not going to bat for genocide because Sovereign has the freedom to ask Harbinger "How's tricks?" and then scratch his laser hole while the Catalyst forces him to harvest the universe.

Whatever. When Sovereign, Harbinger, and Unnamed Destroyer on Rannoch are openly condoning the wholesale slaughter of untold quintillions of freethinking, sapient peoples, I don't have a problem putting them down.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

jtav wrote...

TIM and Saren were autonomous. TIM even thought he was fightimg the Reapers. Indoctrination isn't "Yes, master" but subverting the will so that doing what you want is doing what they want.

Think of indoctrination like succumbing to propaganda. People get indoctrinated daily. It's pretty easy to do, really. It just needs to follow one rule. "All propaganda has to be popular and has to
accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of
those whom it seeks to reach." (by one of history's most infamous 20th century dictators) It's brainwashing.

The way the reapers do it is just more invasive and doesn't require that it be simple.

[memorysquid]

o Ventus wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Partly autonomous in the sense that the Reapers can control their vocal and motor functions, but the Catalyst ultimately controls their whim and intent.

The Catalyst only says he controls them, he doesn't say to what extent.

Well, if their whim and intention are being substituted by the Catalyst's will, their partial autonomy is no excuse for blame, now is it?  I am not going to bat for genocide because Sovereign has the freedom to ask Harbinger "How's tricks?" and then scratch his laser hole while the Catalyst forces him to harvest the universe.

Whatever. When Sovereign, Harbinger, and Unnamed Destroyer on Rannoch are openly condoning the wholesale slaughter of untold quintillions of freethinking, sapient peoples, I don't have a problem putting them down.

Me neither.  Well unless their point of view was the direct result of someone else controlling their intention and I had the option to free them rather than kill them.