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[Halberd96]

It was just one of those things that should have been fleshed out more. Same with Meredith's insanity and her enragement (although I suppose you could just pin that on the effects of the red lyrium but that doesn't necessarily make it good writing.)

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So Orsino turns into a Harvester (a recycled GoA villain) near the mages? It's asinine. It makes no sense.

Harvester being recycled makes no sense but doesn't matter in the context of the situation. Orsino--let alone any mage--empowering themselves with blood magic to fight the Templar does make sense, however.

The developers admitted they did it to avoid the mage choice being the "good option" and it shows.

No, they said they did it to add another boss fight. No need to add more to try and justify your hatred towards the point.

Also, why would Cullen have a problem with Meredith wanting to kill Hawke? Hawke didn't surrender and he's killing templars, while Cullen has no problem with Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment simply to appease a hypothetical mob.

Because Hawke is still a well-respected hero and noble of influence throughout Kirkwall? Because the plan was originally to arrest and question the Champion?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 17 juin 2012 - 09:23 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Because they felt the need for another endgame boss battle.

[Fallstar]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

That'd be the explanation of how Orsino could turn into a Harvester. But as for why, there really isn't one. The battle could hardly be going better for the mages, assuming your Hawke sided with them.

It isn't going good for the mages. Seperate gameplay and cutscenes and you've got the brunt reality of it: Templars are charging through the Gallows, they've killed everyone except the inner sanctum and now are assaulting the remnants of the mages where Hawke is positioned and even then, mages have still died within a few waves of Templar.

There's an army outside, a handful of people inside and there's nowhere for them to go. None of them are coming out of there alive and they know it, thus Orsino's breakdown. The only reason Hawke survived that day was Cullen allowed Hawke to leave.

This is one of the areas where there is a large disconnect between the story and the gameplay. In the gameplay you are slaughtering templars left right and centre. There are far tougher fights than killing the number of templars that surrounds Hawke during the final scene. There's on the order of 30 or so Templars there? And you have your full party with you? Unless those are 30 commander tier Templars (are there even that many in one city...) that fight would be almost amusing compared to say Xebenkeck, or Malvernis, or the Awiergen Scrolls Aspect with the 2 boss level Revenants. 

So in terms of gameplay, no, there aren't any where near enough Templars to provide a challenge let alone actually prevent you from leaving the city. If you want to say that each Templar there actually represents 10 Templars just because the engine couldn't handle that many on screen at once or w/e, sure. But in terms of what the game actually shows us? There's less than a hundred Templars standing between Hawke and the Gallows docks. (Bear in mind that the Gallows isn't a huge place, only a relatively small force can be there at one time, even if Meredith somehow summoned enough Templars to make up for the number you kill just getting to the Gallows.) 

Considering then that the Templars aren't infinte in number, that you kill a significant number of them in the main Kirkwall docks on the way, and that Aveline has kept the guard away from the conflict looking after innocents, and you begin to see that Meredith's force was perfectly defeatable. Next consider how potent your party is when limited to only 3 companions. Now you have everyone at your disposal simultaneously. (Even if Fenris and your brother initially side with the Templars, they come back to you when it comes down to it.) 

I'd say you wouldn't have even needed the Circle Mages to do anything, they could have sat there feeling broody and oppressed whilst you cleared the Templars out for them, then taken the ships the Templars used to arrive at the Gallows and set sail for Ferelden. Or something. 

Even if you and your party suddenly forgot how efficient they are at killing things, it would have at least made sense for Orsino to head out and face the Templars before he turned into a Harvester type thing, rather than thinking to himself, "Well, the battle isn't going too well, best take as many of my allies down with me as I can."

Edit: All of this applies basically to my disclaimer in my previous post "If your Hawke sided with them." In the cutscenes the circle mages generally flail about and look surprised when that bastard Templar wasn't in fact sneaking around to get a better look at their behind, I agree with you there.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 17 juin 2012 - 10:09 .

[Jerrybnsn]

The whole game was like an Orsino mindless boss battle. No matter who you sided with you fought them all. Side with the mages and you find yourself having to fight mages as well as templars. Side with the Qunari over templars and you find yourself fighting qunari as well as templars. I found it never mattered what decision you made, the game play never changed from one human character to the next human character.

[TEWR]

It's also pretty sad that there is no option to tell the Mages -- of which I'm sure there are hundreds all in that one area, because Orsino gathered up all of his mages that he could -- to make use of the goddamn funnel there.

And to bombard that area with craploads of Gravitic Rings. If you can keep your enemy from moving, chances are they won't be able to dispel your attacks.

I mean.... really...

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So Orsino turns into a Harvester (a recycled GoA villain) near the mages? It's asinine. It makes no sense.

Harvester being recycled makes no sense but doesn't matter in the context of the situation. Orsino--let alone any mage--empowering themselves with blood magic to fight the Templar does make sense, however.

Orsino wasn’t near the templars, he was near the mages. That's why we see the mages running away when he transforms into a recycled GoA Harvester near them.

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers admitted they did it to avoid the mage choice being the "good option" and it shows.

No, they said they did it to add another boss fight. No need to add more to try and justify your hatred towards the point.

One of the developers addressed on the forums a year ago that they did it to avoid the mage path being the “good path” early on; months later, Gaider addressed that they did it to provide another boss battle. This issue has been mentioned repeatedly on these forums.

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, why would Cullen have a problem with Meredith wanting to kill Hawke? Hawke didn't surrender and he's killing templars, while Cullen has no problem with Meredith invoking the Right of Annulment simply to appease a hypothetical mob.

Because Hawke is still a well-respected hero and noble of influence throughout Kirkwall? Because the plan was originally to arrest and question the Champion?

That statement doesn’t address the fact that (pro-mage) Hawke is killing templars left and right on his path to leave the Gallows, and the Champion didn’t surrender to the templars. Hawke has defied the Right of Annulment, he has helped mages escape Meredith’s wrath, he has been killing templars, he hasn’t surrendered, and Meredith orders his execution when she confronts him. Neither Hawke nor his companions surrendered to Meredith, and there’s no indication that he was going to do so. The fact that Cullen has no problem with the Right of Annulment being invoked to appease a hypothetical mob, but has a problem with a templar-killing Hawke who hasn’t surrendered being killed, is more than a little ridiculous. The developers made no attempt to provide a reasonable explanation for why killing a pro-mage Hawke is the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Cullen.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino wasn’t near the templars, he was near the mages. That's why we see the mages running away when he transforms into a recycled GoA Harvester near them.

Are you being intentionally dull? They're in the middle of the Gallows surrounded by Templar. Do you think Orsino does this for fun? He's trying to fight back the Templar by doing the ritual, he doesn't need to be standing infront of the Templar to do so.

One of the developers addressed on the forums a year ago that they did it to avoid the mage path being the “good path” early on; months later, Gaider addressed that they did it to provide another boss battle. This issue has been mentioned repeatedly on these forums.

Oh, I see. It's one of your associations to two unrelated things to try and make a point. The first point was in reference to Kirkwall having blood mages every corner, the second point was about Orsino.

Two.
Unrelated.
Points.

*snip*  The developers made no attempt to provide a reasonable explanation for why killing a pro-mage Hawke is the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Cullen.

Except, you know, the many reasons which we've already discussed on length about multiple times before throughout the many threads which you claim as such.

Hawke is influential.
Hawke is Cullen's friend.
Hawke would be made a martyr.
Cullen doesn't want everybody dead regardless.
Cullen's many long-standing doubts come open upon hearing Meredith change her orders at the last second.
Many more, pick one or involve more than one!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 18 juin 2012 - 01:32 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Orsino wasn’t near the templars, he was near the mages. That's why we see the mages running away when he transforms into a recycled GoA Harvester near them.

Are you being intentionally dull? They're in the middle of the Gallows surrounded by Templar. Do you think Orsino does this for fun? He's trying to fight back the Templar by doing the ritual, he doesn't need to be standing infront of the Templar to do so.

Orsino is near a plethora of mages when he does the ritual; that doesn't change the fact that it's an asinine decision that countless people have addressed as a ridiculous move. I realize you're a fan and supporter of Dragon Age II, but that doesn't change that the only people who Orsino endangers with his asinine transformation are the mages he is supposed to protect. That also doesn't explain how Orsino even knows how to perform a ritual that can clearly only be done once.

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

One of the developers addressed on the forums a year ago that they did it to avoid the mage path being the “good path” early on; months later, Gaider addressed that they did it to provide another boss battle. This issue has been mentioned repeatedly on these forums.

Oh, I see. It's one of your associations to two unrelated things to try and make a point. The first point was in reference to Kirkwall having blood mages every corner, the second point was about Orsino.

Two.
Unrelated.
Points.

Both statements were in reference to Orsino. How are they unrelated when both address two developers explaining why Orsino became a Harvester?

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

*snip*  The developers made no attempt to provide a reasonable explanation for why killing a pro-mage Hawke is the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Cullen.

Except, you know, the many reasons which we've already discussed on length about.

You mean your notion that Cullen wanted (pro-mage) Hawke to be arrested, even though Hawke gives no indication that he will accept that, and has been killing countless templars throughout the Gallows in his defiance of the Right of Annulment?

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote....

LobselVith8 wrote...

*snip* The developers made no attempt to provide a reasonable explanation for why killing a pro-mage Hawke is the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Cullen.

Except, you know, the many reasons which we've already discussed on length about.

Both of you have valid points on the matter, but I think I'd lean more to Lob's position.

It would've been better for me if he was at first supportive of executing a pro-mage Hawke because of everything Lob stated, but then when he comes face to face with Hawke he begins advocating that he be arrested.

Not only because Hawke's a friend of sorts -- or at least, a decent person -- but because he's an important noble to the people that is -- as the story would have us believe -- a symbol to them as well. For the reasons you yourself stated.

Best of both worlds for a pro-mage Hawke.

Still no justifiable reason why they'd support arresting a pro-Templar Hawke that has been consistently... well... pro-Templar.

[Plaintiff]

thats1evildude wrote...

He had lost all hope. He secretly supported Quentin as a means of finding a weapon to use against Meredith and intended only to use the Harvester ritual as a last resort. The death of his charges, coupled with the fact that he would be a hunted fugitive even if he survived the final battle, drove him over the edge. He's killing himself, but he's doing it in such a way that he'll take Meredith with him.

It could have been handled a bit better, but I don't have as big a problem with Orsino's transformation as some people.

This, pretty much.

I don't understand the confusion. Orsino explicitly spells out his reasoning for you in a maudlin little speech.

[Issala]

Plaintiff wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

He had lost all hope. He secretly supported Quentin as a means of finding a weapon to use against Meredith and intended only to use the Harvester ritual as a last resort. The death of his charges, coupled with the fact that he would be a hunted fugitive even if he survived the final battle, drove him over the edge. He's killing himself, but he's doing it in such a way that he'll take Meredith with him.

It could have been handled a bit better, but I don't have as big a problem with Orsino's transformation as some people.

This, pretty much.

I don't understand the confusion. Orsino explicitly spells out his reasoning for you in a maudlin little speech.

He only gives that speech if you side with the templars. The only way I even knew that he'd been helping Quentin with his research is because I watched the templar ending on YouTube.

But I can see why he'd flip out so badly, even if on a pro-mage playthrough it comes across as pretty heavily contrived. The only thing I have issues with is how the heck he even turned into a Harvester in the first place. Just. After playing GoA, it didn't make sense.

[Plaintiff]

Semhaine wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

He had lost all hope. He secretly supported Quentin as a means of finding a weapon to use against Meredith and intended only to use the Harvester ritual as a last resort. The death of his charges, coupled with the fact that he would be a hunted fugitive even if he survived the final battle, drove him over the edge. He's killing himself, but he's doing it in such a way that he'll take Meredith with him.

It could have been handled a bit better, but I don't have as big a problem with Orsino's transformation as some people.

This, pretty much.

I don't understand the confusion. Orsino explicitly spells out his reasoning for you in a maudlin little speech.

He only gives that speech if you side with the templars. The only way I even knew that he'd been helping Quentin with his research is because I watched the templar ending on YouTube.

But I can see why he'd flip out so badly, even if on a pro-mage playthrough it comes across as pretty heavily contrived. The only thing I have issues with is how the heck he even turned into a Harvester in the first place. Just. After playing GoA, it didn't make sense.

I'm not certain that Orsino knew what was going to happen.

Isn't the Harvester a flesh golem constructed from Blood Magic? Quentin was researching how to bring life to dead body parts. It's possible (albeit, a bit of an unlikely coincidence) that he stumbled across the process accidentally in his research.

[Issala]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not certain that Orsino knew what was going to happen.

Isn't the Harvester a flesh golem constructed from Blood Magic? Quentin was researching how to bring life to dead body parts. It's possible (albeit, a bit of an unlikely coincidence) that he stumbled across the process accidentally in his research.

Oh, he definitely didn't know what was going to happen. For the sake of public decency alone, that thing is just nasty.

Playing GoA, it made it sound like the Fade was somehow involved. Okay, so I played the whole DLC really late at night with my mouth half-open, with next to no idea what was going on, but it still doesn't seem like a Harvester is... just something that any powerful blood mage can turn into, even if he knows how it can be created. The amount of mutation from Orsino's original form to the little legless head-monster itself isn't something that I can see happening as quickly as it did.
Now I'm nitpicking.

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Isn't the Harvester a flesh golem constructed from Blood Magic? Quentin was researching how to bring life to dead body parts. It's possible (albeit, a bit of an unlikely coincidence) that he stumbled across the process accidentally in his research.

I believe that the explanation for how it's formed is that a Fade spirit is summoned into a bunch of corpses, wherein it transmutes the (now dead) flesh into the monstrosity you see.

There are different methods to achieve that end result.

I still find it unnecessary to have been there, but IIRC that was the official WoG on how Orsino turned into it.

But somehow I doubt that Quentin just happened to create it accidentally and just happened to defeat what took down an entire group of Dwarves and a Tevinter Magister..

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 juin 2012 - 03:18 .

[Silfren]

It's been suggested at least once that Orsino didn't turn into a Harvester so much as Bioware re-used the Harvester graphic for the same reason they re-used maps. Personally I tend to lean toward that view.

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

It's been suggested at least once that Orsino didn't turn into a Harvester so much as Bioware re-used the Harvester graphic for the same reason they re-used maps. Personally I tend to lean toward that view.

I agree with you.  He was a "harvester" probably because it's a pain in the neck to come up with an entirely new villain concept, code it, play test it and so on and so forth.  They saved time by reusing a graphic that not everyone will have been familiar with anyway because in Origins the harvester was only introduced in a DLC.

In short, for those people wondering why Orsino decided to become a harvester specifically, just repeat to yourself "It's just a game, I should really just relaxe

[JohnZ117]

My favorite explanation from the forums is that Varric lied to Cassandra to conceal the fact that Orsino is alive and operating covertly against the Templars and the Chantry.