342 réponses à ce sujet

[terdferguson123]

Hey guys, I just recently finished DA2 again and quite enjoyed it aside from a few things. There is one thing that I did find to slightly get on my nerves that I would like to see changed in DA3. And that is the Dialogue Wheel. Let me explain:

1.) Now, the Dialogue Wheel works perfectly fine in Mass Effect, and I like it in that series. But, I also feel like Mass Effect is meant to have more defined right and wrong choices than Dragon Age. One of my favorite things about Dragon Age Origins, was that the choices were not any kind of order by "good", "witty", or "evil". Because it didn't have an order, I ended up choosing the choices more that I thought were best, rather than sticking with always picking the good or the witty option for every single choice. My point is, it's too easy to get into a routine with the dialogue wheel, of always picking the same archetype. It's hard to explain, but for me it breaks immersion a bit.

2.) Having choices that follow an archetype in every conversation can be a little offputting in my opinion. There are times that the witty or charming option just doesn't fit with the scenario present. And while, sure, you don't have to pick that option, it leads back to what I said earlier about the wheel being too easily to fall into a preset "character".

It's a bit of a difficult sensation to describe, but the best way I can put it is that in comparison to how the choices were presented in origins, it makes you feel less like your playing your character, and more like your playing Bioware's vision of the character.

Did the Dialogue Wheel sort of break immersion for anyone else? If so, what could Bioware do to make it better for DA3?

[The Sarendoctrinator]

I always choose the dialogue that's right for the character I'm playing no matter where it falls on the wheel, same as in Mass Effect, so I didn't have any problems. Just like I don't play pure Paragon or Renegade, I don't stick with one "type" all the way through DA2 - even my most diplomatic characters get angry once in a while.

I know it might not be a very popular opinion, but I like DA2's dialogue wheel and the icons. I can't think of anything I'd want to change about that specifically.

[PsychoBlonde]

I wouldn't mind these sorts of options. I like the *idea* of the tone options, but I kind of feel (and I hope the devs feel this way as well), that implementation in DA2 was kind of a rough draft.

This seems like a decent suggestion to me--I wouldn't mind if they don't always have all 3 options (or maybe there will be times when there are multiple options for one "tone"). I think this would, at minimum, change things up a bit, so if you want to play an all-toned character, you have to work at it a bit, and if you don't, you'll have more variety in options.

I kind of wish they could just assign one person to write the PC, but this would be a logistical nightmare because that person would have to be in 17 places at once while other writers were working on NPC's. Or, maybe not--the NPC writers could just throw in quick comments where the PC would normally speak: "PC says Yes", then hand it off to the PC re-writer for fleshing out.

[PsychoBlonde]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

I always choose the dialogue that's right for the character I'm playing no matter where it falls on the wheel, same as in Mass Effect, so I didn't have any problems. Just like I don't play pure Paragon or Renegade, I don't stick with one "type" all the way through DA2 - even my most diplomatic characters get angry once in a while.

I like to get the extra dialog options, but I suppose you don't need to be particularly consistent in DA for this.  I did have some problems when I tried being (mostly) Angry Hawke, though, because the non-toned options (investigate and choice options) sounded TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER most of the time.  It was jarring to switch back and forth from GRRR I'M PISSED to So, how was your day? every other line.

[The Sarendoctrinator]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I like to get the extra dialog options, but I suppose you don't need to be particularly consistent in DA for this.  I did have some problems when I tried being (mostly) Angry Hawke, though, because the non-toned options (investigate and choice options) sounded TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER most of the time.  It was jarring to switch back and forth from GRRR I'M PISSED to So, how was your day? every other line.

This was a problem in ME2, for sure. It was frustrating at times to have options unavailable to me because I like to play mixed moralities. But I didn't notice this so much in DA2, and I consider it more of a problem with the persuasion system than the dialogue wheel itself.

I can't comment on the tones switching back and forth awkwardly because that hasn't happened to me (yet?).

[Its_a_Catdemon]

I'll agree with PsychoBlonde here, I like the idea of tone, the personality types, the additional options, but we shouldn't be encouraged to stick with a single option. The PC's dialogue could feel a lot more natural if written by fewer separate writers (possibly just one), and by not forcing the same options in each time. I'd like more variety in personality types, and have different ones appear for each decision, instead of one set always being available. Possibly multiple options with the same tone, but different meaning e.g. One option being aggressive toward Mages, and one aggressive toward Templars, when a fight is breaking out between the two sides. Make it so toned responses can have separate meanings as well, so as to have less complaints of it being the same things said differently.

[John Epler]

Well, technically, there weren't just three personality tones in DA2, but rather three categories that themselves contained variations on those tones. However, we'll readily admit that it wasn't always completely clear that this was the case.

The writers are aware of these problems, I can tell you that much, and I would expect that, going forward, we'll be trying to keep the options available more suited to the conversation in question. That's not to say that you can't, occasionally, be entirely inappropriate, but it's certainly something we can improve upon - and I've seen our ideas for doing so, and I feel that they'll answer a lot of these concerns.

[Wulfram]

What I generally felt I lacked was a clear indication of intensity - is Aggressive Hawke going to be a bit miffed, simply forceful or start chewing the scenery, is Sarcastic Hawke going to make a mild witticism to ease the tension or say something outrageous?

The subcategories of tones didn't seem to help me much as far as that went.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 juin 2012 - 11:18 .

[seraphymon]

and just because you had 2 different icons for blue purple or red, really didnt mean squat. They both gave the same tone. and since we always had one of each color when the option came. instead of say 2 different blues and one red. It made no difference to have them.

[wsandista]

I believe that the optimal solution would be to have full text dialogue, and include an option to turn off voiced PC. When playing with voiced PC, have a wheel in the corner that lets the player pick the tone.

Another solution would be to have choices in the wheel first, followed by a tone selection.

I hope these suggestions are feasiable with the resources available.

[ianvillan]

Apart from the terrible paraphrasing, the main problem I had with the dialogue wheel was that they tied the auto dialogue into the personality system.

This meant that you couldn't choose different responses because Hawke would then then act or say something totally inapropiate when he was on one of the many autodialogues.

[Cultist]

You can't fix something, that was broken from the very beginning.

[Rurik948]

wsandista wrote...

I believe that the optimal solution would be to have full text dialogue, and include an option to turn off voiced PC. When playing with voiced PC, have a wheel in the corner that lets the player pick the tone.

Another solution would be to have choices in the wheel first, followed by a tone selection.

I hope these suggestions are feasiable with the resources available.

Speaking about clarity of choices, DA.Origin system solves all the problems assoicated with the wheel,  but unfortunately the option to turn off voiced PC is not likely to be included in DA 3.

http://social.biowar.../index/10299604  

This thread contains David Gaider posts where he shares his ideas about supposed changes in dialog system (partuculary about tones).  He also wrote Bioware would show us a video when a new concept is finalised.  

I hope the problems with wheel clarity will not be settled for the sake of player interaction. 

[Androme]

John Epler wrote...

Well, technically, there weren't just three personality tones in DA2, but rather three categories that themselves contained variations on those tones. However, we'll readily admit that it wasn't always completely clear that this was the case.

The writers are aware of these problems, I can tell you that much, and I would expect that, going forward, we'll be trying to keep the options available more suited to the conversation in question. That's not to say that you can't, occasionally, be entirely inappropriate, but it's certainly something we can improve upon - and I've seen our ideas for doing so, and I feel that they'll answer a lot of these concerns.

Just wondering, why do you guys insist on keeping the dialogue wheel? And what is your argument for not going with the conversation options that you had in DAO, which was not only more accurate but also provided a wider variety of outcomes and conversations with the character in question?

[AkiKishi]

Deus Ex:HR intent word works better than tones. People can look up a word, a tone is somewhat subjective.
Better still would be to ditch the idea of CC and have all dialogue applicable to the character as in Witcher2, that gives much more depth with no extra work. While only giving up on trivial things like appearences and first names (which are never acknowledged by the game anyway).

[fchopin]

John Epler wrote...
The writers are aware of these problems, I can tell you that much, and I would expect that, going forward, we'll be trying to keep the options available more suited to the conversation in question. That's not to say that you can't, occasionally, be entirely inappropriate, but it's certainly something we can improve upon - and I've seen our ideas for doing so, and I feel that they'll answer a lot of these concerns.

Just show us the full text, problem solved.

[Jerrybnsn]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I like to get the extra dialog options, but I suppose you don't need to be particularly consistent in DA for this.  I did have some problems when I tried being (mostly) Angry Hawke, though,.

This was a problem in ME2, for sure. It was frustrating at times to have options unavailable to me because I like to play mixed moralities. But I didn't notice this so much in DA2, and I consider it more of a problem with the persuasion system than the dialogue wheel itself.

.

That was the problem I had with ME2 my first playthrough.  I was alternating between paragon and rogue dialogue that I found out towards the end of the game that other dialogue options were unavailable to me because I wasn't consistent enough with one or the other.

In playing DA2 my first playthrough I stuck with gruff Hawk and it ended up locking out certain dialogues and companion quests ( effoff with your problems!) that I finished the entire game within twenty hours.

I never took a pure paragon or rogue manner in Origins and alternated my dialogue the way I felt like responding to my character.

How to fix it?  Use Origins dialogue tree and don't set up paragon and rogue dialogue options like ME.

[AkiKishi]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I like to get the extra dialog options, but I suppose you don't need to be particularly consistent in DA for this.  I did have some problems when I tried being (mostly) Angry Hawke, though,.

This was a problem in ME2, for sure. It was frustrating at times to have options unavailable to me because I like to play mixed moralities. But I didn't notice this so much in DA2, and I consider it more of a problem with the persuasion system than the dialogue wheel itself.

.

That was the problem I had with ME2 my first playthrough.  I was alternating between paragon and rogue dialogue that I found out towards the end of the game that other dialogue options were unavailable to me because I wasn't consistent enough with one or the other.

In playing DA2 my first playthrough I stuck with gruff Hawk and it ended up locking out certain dialogues and companion quests ( effoff with your problems!) that I finished the entire game within twenty hours.

I never took a pure paragon or rogue manner in Origins and alternated my dialogue the way I felt like responding to my character.

How to fix it?  Use Origins dialogue tree and don't set up paragon and rogue dialogue options like ME.

That's what you get when you reward extremes. Bioware have essentially been reskinning the same game system since KOTOR with a "light/dark" scale. DA2 is the same where extremes of one or the other are rewarded.

Origins is less obvious, and the "gifting" mechanism allows you to make up for any but the most extreme negative reaction.
Linking converstation to mechanics, not really a good idea. Unless you have a combat relationship mechanic (ala Binary Domain) where you can prove yourself in other ways,or it invaribly forces you into an extreme if you want the reward.

[mopotter]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

I always choose the dialogue that's right for the character I'm playing no matter where it falls on the wheel, same as in Mass Effect, so I didn't have any problems. Just like I don't play pure Paragon or Renegade, I don't stick with one "type" all the way through DA2 - even my most diplomatic characters get angry once in a while.

I know it might not be a very popular opinion, but I like DA2's dialogue wheel and the icons. I can't think of anything I'd want to change about that specifically.

I didn't have any problems with it either.  

The icons were not my favorite and if they got rid of them I wouldn't mind, on the other hand if they are making every love interest interested in you no matter what, I would want some indicate that I'm flirting.   I would also like the wheel to give me the information I need when I make my decision.  Where it is located doesn't really matter that much to me.   

I guess having it set with the top right - polite; bottom right - angry; middle - neutral, or whatever they use, and the lift side for friendship, romance and special responses plus the hug punch inturrupts would work for someone who wants a "pure" character without having to pay too much attention to what they are doing, but as long as they are clear in giving me some hint I can work with it.

[mopotter]

Rurik948 wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I believe that the optimal solution would be to have full text dialogue, and include an option to turn off voiced PC. When playing with voiced PC, have a wheel in the corner that lets the player pick the tone.

Another solution would be to have choices in the wheel first, followed by a tone selection.

I hope these suggestions are feasiable with the resources available.

Speaking about clarity of choices, DA.Origin system solves all the problems assoicated with the wheel,  but unfortunately the option to turn off voiced PC is not likely to be included in DA 3.

http://social.biowar.../index/10299604  

This thread contains David Gaider posts where he shares his ideas about supposed changes in dialog system (partuculary about tones).  He also wrote Bioware would show us a video when a new concept is finalised.  

I hope the problems with wheel clarity will not be settled for the sake of player interaction. 

It would be nice if the voice could be turned off for those who prefer this, but personally I like the flow of the conversations with the voiced character.  I am just finishing up another run through DA:O and the voiced character was something I missed throughout the game.   It would, however be nice if they had a voice slider so you could change it slightly so that all my characters didn't sound exactly alike, but this would just be an extra piece of icing for me anyway.  

[mopotter]

The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I like to get the extra dialog options, but I suppose you don't need to be particularly consistent in DA for this.  I did have some problems when I tried being (mostly) Angry Hawke, though, because the non-toned options (investigate and choice options) sounded TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER most of the time.  It was jarring to switch back and forth from GRRR I'M PISSED to So, how was your day? every other line.

This was a problem in ME2, for sure. It was frustrating at times to have options unavailable to me because I like to play mixed moralities. But I didn't notice this so much in DA2, and I consider it more of a problem with the persuasion system than the dialogue wheel itself.

I can't comment on the tones switching back and forth awkwardly because that hasn't happened to me (yet?).

ME2 I actually liked not having the extra options.  My neutral Shepard should not have been able to persuade everyone to agree in the same manner as my paragon or renegade Shepard.  Just gave me more options for my characters.  

[mr_luga]

I really do hate the dialog wheel as it is. Well, the wheel not as much as the paraphrasing. Deus ex human revolution really schooled bioware on how it should be done.

Though I much prefer Origin/Witcher 2 style

[nightscrawl]

John Epler wrote...

Well, technically, there weren't just three personality tones in DA2, but rather three categories that themselves contained variations on those tones. However, we'll readily admit that it wasn't always completely clear that this was the case.

The writers are aware of these problems, I can tell you that much, and I would expect that, going forward, we'll be trying to keep the options available more suited to the conversation in question. That's not to say that you can't, occasionally, be entirely inappropriate, but it's certainly something we can improve upon - and I've seen our ideas for doing so, and I feel that they'll answer a lot of these concerns.

Some of these issues would have been mitigated by documentation. Then if we as players don't read the provided information, well then it's our own damn fault for being confused or irritated.

nightscrawl wrote...

As various Bioware people have said, forums users only account for a small portion of the players, so it's certainly unfair to expect those non-forum players to then be informed about some mechanic because it was talked about on the forums during DA2 development, or even after release. I remember getting a really fat book with Neverwinter Nights detailing pretty much everything. It even came with a cheat card for some shortcuts. Yes, I know this isn't cost prohibitive with modern games, but clear, comprehensive, FREE documentation should be available online on the official site. In fact, the only explanation I could find in an official sense was on p.6 of the sample PDF of the strategy guide, which we should NOT be expected to buy to understand a game component.

nightscrawl wrote...

Two major areas suffered in DA2 from a lack of documentation: the friendship/rivalry system and the dialogue wheel; it's incredibly, painfully obvious that many of the problems stem from this, and Bioware has no one to blame but themselves for this issue, particularly since they have critically said (to forum goers who think that majority forum opinion constitutes majority player opinion) that not all of their players post on/read the forums. I agree with that completely. But if you are going to show such full awareness of your audience, then you need to take the extra step and provide for those people. Asking for a PDF manual is not unreasonable.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 12 juin 2012 - 12:31 .

[Lord Gremlin]

First, get rid of paraphrasing entirely. Then we talk. As for icons/personalities.. I don' think personality is a good idea at all. Give us intonation - fine details on how the line is spelled. Angrily? With disgust? Jokingly?
The key in a game like this is that you never ever should be surprised by anything your character says.