342 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Why would you want to lock the PC into a single "personality" from the start? What's the benefit?

I don't want my PC to be snarky all the time. I want them to be snarky when it makes sense for that character to be snarky.

[SerTabris]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Of course, I don't want to force my preferred style on others. I would like the option to remove icon hints and replace the wheel with a randomized (maybe procedurally-ordered) list of responses. (SWTOR has the option to turn off the light-dark hints. I just would like the option to reduce more of the hints.)

I think that would be an interesting feature. Reminds me a bit of Wing Commander III and IV, actually (I remember reading instructions in one of their design documents to randomize the position of the choices so that the players would not perceive a certain position as 'good' or 'bad').

[Pasquale1234]

Wulfram wrote...

Why would you want to lock the PC into a single "personality" from the start? What's the benefit?

I don't want my PC to be snarky all the time. I want them to be snarky when it makes sense for that character to be snarky.

Agreed.  That's one of the reasons why I really dislike the predominant tone system.

[wsandista]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Why would you want to lock the PC into a single "personality" from the start? What's the benefit?

I don't want my PC to be snarky all the time. I want them to be snarky when it makes sense for that character to be snarky.

Agreed.  That's one of the reasons why I really dislike the predominant tone system.

It's just another problem with attempting to have a semi-fixed PC. 

If they had a fixed PC(s), like Geralt or Adam, then it wouldn't be a problem because the player wouldn't even be trying to create the PC or determine their personality. If they had a silent player-generated PC,  like the Warden or Bhaalspawn, then it wouldn't be a problem because the PC would be silent and the player would create their personality and could determine the tone and intent used. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like DA3 will do either.

[Wulfram]

wsandista wrote...

It's just another problem with attempting to have a semi-fixed PC. 

No, it's a problem with needlessly restricting player choice.

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

wsandista wrote...

It's just another problem with attempting to have a semi-fixed PC. 

No, it's a problem with needlessly restricting player choice.

Which is what a semi-fixed PC does.

[Wulfram]

wsandista wrote...

Which is what a semi-fixed PC does.

I don't see the argument you're making.

The issue is writing a bunch of lines and then declaring "no, we won't let you choose between them."  It's got nothing to do with "fixed" or "semi-fixed" PCs.

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Which is what a semi-fixed PC does.

I don't see the argument you're making.

The issue is writing a bunch of lines and then declaring "no, we won't let you choose between them."  It's got nothing to do with "fixed" or "semi-fixed" PCs.

Semi-Fixed PC's remove player choice by giving a selection of a few tones that try to be complete personalities. With a Fixed PC, this doesn't happen because the PC already has a well defined personality. With a Player-generated PC this doesn't happen because the player gets to decide exactly what the personality of the PC is. Semi-fixed PC is actually the kind that allows the least amount of player choice.

Bioware probably won't do a player-generated PC because they have decided that DA3 must be a cinematic game with a voiced PC. They also probably won't do a fixed PC because some would complain about not being able to adjust the character's appearance or that the PC didn't act how they wanted. So we'll get a semi-fixed where we get to choose between 3 tones instead of a complex personality and all choices in the game will be which tone to give a reply in, instead of what the reply is.

[Wulfram]

1. That's got nothing to do with pointlessly restricting access to existing dialogue choices.

2. Fixed PC doesn't magically give you any extra choice. It just means you'll be stuck with playing generic badass #57

[joyner1229]

Wulfram wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Which is what a semi-fixed PC does.

I don't see the argument you're making.

The issue is writing a bunch of lines and then declaring "no, we won't let you choose between them."  It's got nothing to do with "fixed" or "semi-fixed" PCs.

Yes, it does.  

• Fixed PC: You are watching the PC with little to no influence on their actions.  Like most protagonists in JRPGs.  I would argue that Shepard in ME3 also falls close to here.
• Semi-fixed: Hawke.  You make some choices regarding both story and shaping the PC's personality, but many aspects of this character are fixed.  You are what I call directing the PC.
• Blank slate: Warden.  You define the character almost entirely in regards to personality and many actions they will take.  You're role-playing as you or any type of character you decide.  Your imagination fills in the blanks.

This has been said numerous times in this thread, but the more that the player can "fill in" so to speak, the more control you have and the more freedom you have.  But, since the information we've got so far hints at another semi-fixed PC (voiced, the wheel will return, etc.), the predominant tone system that I mentioned attempts to at least give some sort of control back to the player.

Personally, I wouldn't have a "snarky" personality.  I would suggest things like opportunistic, stoic, friendly, etc. like the soundset descriptions in Origins.  Then within each of these, you have numerous choices.  Friendly can be firm/mean, but it wouldn't be out of character for you.  So the "aggressive" option might be "I'm losing my patience."  This prevents the extremes in DA2 and lets you maneuver more within a stable personality type.  Similarly, a more hostile personality type would have diplomatic options, saying something like "Alright, I'll help you.  But you'd better make it worth my time."  Each personality type would be able to choose different responses without breaking character.  Friendly doesn't just have "happy" choices.  It's not perfect, but I think it is more than the current wheel gives us.  I guess the use of the word personality here is misleading.

Modifié par joyner1229, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:20 .

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

1. That's got nothing to do with pointlessly restricting access to existing dialogue choices.

Yes it does. When all choices end up being x, just in different tones then you are restricted with your choices. Semi-fixed does this to appear to be a player-generated PC, just look at Hawke. Most lines Hawke had were basically "yes" but in different tones.

2. Fixed PC doesn't magically give you any extra choice. It just means you'll be stuck with playing generic badass #57

No it doesn't automatically mean more choice, however it does allow for more choice than a semi-fixed PC. Take Geralt for example, he has one tone and a set personality, but has much more actual decisions than Hakwe does because there is no attempt to make him appear to be created by the player. So whle the player can't choose a tone, they can choose things that actually matter and have an impact,like which faction to side with, in DA2 it railroaded you into the same outcome, while in TW2 it led to completly different Act2s and changed Act3 quite a bit.

[joyner1229]

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

1. That's got nothing to do with pointlessly restricting access to existing dialogue choices.

Yes it does. When all choices end up being x, just in different tones then you are restricted with your choices. Semi-fixed does this to appear to be a player-generated PC, just look at Hawke. Most lines Hawke had were basically "yes" but in different tones.

2. Fixed PC doesn't magically give you any extra choice. It just means you'll be stuck with playing generic badass #57

No it doesn't automatically mean more choice, however it does allow for more choice than a semi-fixed PC. Take Geralt for example, he has one tone and a set personality, but has much more actual decisions than Hakwe does because there is no attempt to make him appear to be created by the player. So whle the player can't choose a tone, they can choose things that actually matter and have an impact,like which faction to side with, in DA2 it railroaded you into the same outcome, while in TW2 it led to completly different Act2s and changed Act3 quite a bit.

I haven't played the game, but from what you described, Geralt sounds closer to semi-fixed.  To me, fixed is a Final Fantasy protagonist or something.  

[wsandista]

joyner1229 wrote...

I haven't played the game, but from what you described, Geralt sounds closer to semi-fixed.  To me, fixed is a Final Fantasy protagonist or something.  

He has a fixed personality and apperance. More fixed than Hawke or Shepard, but still provides plenty of choice(like Adam in Deus Ex: Human Revolution) because there isn't an attempt to make the PC seem like they are created by the player. 

Of course we could get both choice and personality options with a silent PC, but that won't be coming back in DA3 and doesn't really work in a cinematic game anyways.

[Wulfram]

wsandista wrote...

Yes it does. When all choices end up being x, just in different tones then you are restricted with your choices. Semi-fixed does this to appear to be a player-generated PC, just look at Hawke. Most lines Hawke had were basically "yes" but in different tones.

We're clearly talking past each other here.  What you're saying has nothing to do with what I'm trying to talk about.

When you have line a and line b, I'd like to choose between those lines, not have the game choose for me.  That's got nothing to do with a semi-fixed pc, that's got to do with Bioware's recent attitude that bringing up the dialogue wheel is a bad thing.

No it doesn't automatically mean more choice, however it does allow for more choice than a semi-fixed PC. Take Geralt for example, he has one tone and a set personality, but has much more actual decisions than Hakwe does because there is no attempt to make him appear to be created by the player. So whle the player can't choose a tone, they can choose things that actually matter and have an impact,like which faction to side with, in DA2 it railroaded you into the same outcome, while in TW2 it led to completly different Act2s and changed Act3 quite a bit.

You're inventing causation that doesn't exist.  DA2's faults do not all arise from "semi-fixed" PC, nor do TW2's virtues all arise from "fixed" PC - though I can't speak with too much authority TW2 because I can't summon the interest necessary to get much out of the first part of TW1.

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

We're clearly talking past each other here.  What you're saying has nothing to do with what I'm trying to talk about.

When you have line a and line b, I'd like to choose between those lines, not have the game choose for me.  That's got nothing to do with a semi-fixed pc, that's got to do with Bioware's recent attitude that bringing up the dialogue wheel is a bad thing.

Oh. Then it's because of the Dialogue Wheel becoming a sacred cow. Deus Ex; Human Revolution had a dialogue sytem that worked with a voiced PC. TW2 also had one that worked well. Nothing beats the full text option IMO, but Bioware won't abadon it because they have decided all games must be cinematic and feature a semi-fixed PC.

You're inventing causation that doesn't exist.  DA2's faults do not all arise from "semi-fixed" PC, nor do TW2's virtues all arise from "fixed" PC - though I can't speak with too much authority TW2 because I can't summon the interest necessary to get much out of the first part of TW1.

No, not all. However, all of the "WTF my PC would never do that!" moments in DA2 are caused by the dialogue wheel(which BW will do with all of their semi-fixed PCs) while that not occuring in the Witcher stems from the absence of the illusion of player creation.

[Wulfram]

Replacing "My character would never do that" with "I don't like this character because he did that" doesn't seem like an advance.

[wsandista]

Wulfram wrote...

Replacing "My character would never do that" with "I don't like this character because he did that" doesn't seem like an advance.

It isn't, it's just less disappointing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Replacing "My character would never do that" with "I don't like this character because he did that" doesn't seem like an advance.

It isn't, it's just less disappointing.

It's exactly as unfun.

[wsandista]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Replacing "My character would never do that" with "I don't like this character because he did that" doesn't seem like an advance.

It isn't, it's just less disappointing.

It's exactly as unfun.

To each his own.

I agree that it isn't half as good as a silent player-generated PC, but I do prefer it over a semi-fixed PC. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Giving us a PC we don't like has exactly the same consequence of DA2's design: we end up with a PC we don't enjoy playing - either because we don't get to play it (DA2), or because we don't like that character.

Only by letting us design our own character can all players have a character they enjoy playing.

Moreover, I still insist that most of the fun of these games is in the replaying of them. A fixed character basically eliminates any replay value, thus dramatically diminishing the value of the game to me.

A non-replayable game isn't worth the time it takes me to play it. I will regret playing a non-replayable game. I regret playing DA2.

[Cirram55]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Giving us a PC we don't like has exactly the same consequence of DA2's design: we end up with a PC we don't enjoy playing - either because we don't get to play it (DA2), or because we don't like that character.

Only by letting us design our own character can all players have a character they enjoy playing.

Moreover, I still insist that most of the fun of these games is in the replaying of them. A fixed character basically eliminates any replay value, thus dramatically diminishing the value of the game to me.

A non-replayable game isn't worth the time it takes me to play it. I will regret playing a non-replayable game. I regret playing DA2.

Well, character customization can be replaced by story customization.
DAII is just a bad place to look for it, since what Bioware took away from your character they didn't give back plotwise etc., but a highly customizable game with a fixed PC is as much replayable as any other RPG.

Modifié par Cirram55, 03 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .

[AkiKishi]

joyner1229 wrote...

I haven't played the game, but from what you described, Geralt sounds closer to semi-fixed.  To me, fixed is a Final Fantasy protagonist or something.  

There is a difference between a fixed protagonist and a plot driven by cutscenes which you don't interact with. While Atelier games have fixed protagonists , they also have something like 18 different possible endings depending on what you did in the game. DA2 has a single ending so there is really no correlation between the two.

Geralts identity is fixed but his choices are not. You can give him a haircut in game, but you can't for example change his face. The Witcher class offers many different branches and possible builds, but he will always be a Witcher.

[joyner1229]

I haven't played the game, but if you're making significant choices that shape the PC and how they interact with the world around them, they are not entirely fixed, regardless of customization of appearance, background, etc. Similarly, I don't think a game's number of endings and/or lack of endings really defines how they fixed they are, either. Sure DA2 has one ending, but you still shape Hawke somewhat (even if within very narrow parameters).  

Modifié par joyner1229, 03 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .

[AkiKishi]

joyner1229 wrote...

I haven't played the game, but if you're making significant choices that shape the PC and how they interact with the world around them, they are not entirely fixed, regardless of customization of appearance, background, etc. Similarly, I don't think a game's number of endings and/or lack of endings really defines how they fixed they are, either. Sure DA2 has one ending, but you still shape Hawke somewhat (even if within very narrow parameters).  

You don't shape the PC in the Witcher. Geralt is Geralt. But just like a normal person faced with a choice he can go in different directions based on your prompting.

In that respect you do shape the story and in far more significant ways than you do in DA2. Part of being able to do that is because Geralt is a fixed character written for that story in every respect.
DA2 tried to do that but lacked the courage to take that final step. Which left you with a sort of your own character but not really, that got railroaded because Bioware focused on three ways to say the same thing rather than giving real choice for a fixed character.

[joyner1229]

I'm still not seeing how that is not semi-fixed. Certain aspects are clearly fixed here, but you're directly influencing how he develops and different players can end up with a different Geralt. I think a fixed identity is different from a fixed PC. I mean Warden is just that: a Grey Warden, no matter what. The Origins are "fixed" as well. Every Human Noble is the youngest Cousland. But everyone develops their Warden differently through the course of the game.

To me, fixed is...well, the last FF I played was FFXII. The player does not influence the PC at all. They make their own decisions, have set relations with other characters, and go in one direction. I consider this fixed.

Now in regards to DA2, I don't think Hawke being semi-fixed is why they were railroaded. Commander Shepard is semi-fixed, but not does not face the severe limitations Hawke does. I just think the choice element in DA2 was poorly done.  Having to face the two bosses at the end of the game is a perfect example. Hawke does make a clear and seemingly important choice, but the game ignores it.

Modifié par joyner1229, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .