342 réponses à ce sujet

[Jerrybnsn]

[quote]mopotter wrote...

[quote]The Sarendoctrinator wrote...

[quote]PsychoBlonde wrote...

I like to get the extra dialog options, but I suppose you don't need to be particularly consistent in DA for this. ...This was a problem in ME2, for sure. It was frustrating at times to have options unavailable to me because I like to play mixed moralities. But I didn't notice this so much in DA2, and I consider it more of a problem with the persuasion system than the dialogue wheel itself. [/quote]

ME2 I actually liked not having the extra options.  My neutral Shepard should not have been able to persuade everyone to agree in the same manner as my paragon or renegade Shepard.  Just gave me more options for my characters.  

[/quote]

Wait, so not having the extra options gave you more options for your characters?

Modifié par Jerrybnsn, 12 juin 2012 - 01:11 .

[Cirram55]

One of the problems I had with the wheel was the lack of choice as well as consistency.
Three personalities just aren't enough, subsequent playthroughs get repetitive and, let's face it, DAII couldn't offer any kind of replayability other than that. Besides, I miss the fifteen-to-twenty dialogue options we had in older RPGs, or the six-to-nine we had in DAO (of course with a voiced protagonist I guess it wouldn't be possible to have more than five options).
And yes, going for an angry Hawke was a pain: every time I had to skip the investigate options because Hawke would sound schizophrenic.

They aren't going back to silent PC, so everyone should deal with it, fine, but if DAIII is going to maintain the tone concept they need to expand it, and with that expand the wheel itself.
This way even for a set protagonist like Hawke the game could offer a wider range of variables and a deeper experience, people would not sell the game two days after finishing it and everybody would be happy.

The absurd paraphrasing was another thing that plagued the game for me, and that needs to be brutally ripped off: I don't like playing guessing games. They can either include the whole text you are going to say in a tooltip (and if people are bothered with reading and then listening, they could make available a toggle to disable such tooltip) or follow some sort of coherence within the paraphrase and the actual line, meaning that if you are asking something the paraphrase would be a question; if you're ordering something then it'd be imperative; if you're stating something, enunciative; if you're expressing disbelief, it'd be an exclamation. And so on. Ideally, including in the paraphrase words from the line to be said.

[Edit] All in all:

- Things to keep
the special dialogues (if I remember correctly thay had the star icon), the bribe and lie options (already in DAO) and the possibility to ask a companion his opinion about the situation (maybe this one could be improved to be made more reactive).
- Things I missed
the intimidate and persuade options.
- Things to change
plot-wise, the importance of the line you are going to say: most of the time it felt like I simply had to choose the voice because, no matter what, the outcome of said dialogue would always be the same. I think this is one of the things that led to the one ending and to Hawke's overall irrelevance.
- Things I'd like to be featured
if DAIII PC's gonna be fixed I would like new personalities, not nice, bad, witty again;
possibly more than three and a variation of their position in the wheel (just to avoid always clicking the top right or whatever other option;
a tooltip showing the full line (with a holy toggle to enable/disable it for ADHD people):
a choesive paraphrasing method (as explained above).

Modifié par Cirram55, 12 juin 2012 - 04:38 .

[falco53]

My problem with the dialogue wheel was that I often felt like it didn't actually matter which one I clicked, in terms of the plot. Most Bioware games make a direct link between your choices and your orientation, but DA2 usually disconnects your orientation from your choices. In fact, it ended up feeling weird the few times where they did connect them. For instance, there is a certain choice in Act 2 regarding Ser Varnell that you can only make if you're using the jerky personality. Why can't I be sarcastic and also hate the Qunari?

I don't think I want DA3's dialogue to copy ME, but I do want something a little different.

[Jerrybnsn]

^
Yes, persuade needs to make a reappearance.

[Archia Oryix]

What you say in certain conditions strongly depends on your communication skill and mood: when you tired and angry you'll shout and make a brawl, or you can be extra polite when you in good spirits, or you can be very pushy and convincing, when you in strong need for something, also when you good conversationalist you'll use all possible means (full range from persuasion, trade to cry and angry burst) to gain what you want no matter what, and there are different means for different people also. Sticking up with only one pattern (evil/good) to gain extra dialogues in that direction is kind of unnatural and boring.
For example, I liked extra line (seduction, intimidation, persuasion, domination) system in VM Bloodlines: you could always pick dialogue extra line, but how they work and if they work depended on your conversation skill.

[Nomen Mendax]

 I'd love them to alter the dialogue wheel ... by getting rid of it (but I know that's not going to happen).

The two things I really want to see are:

Phrases that actually tell me what my character is going to say - I find not knowing what I'm about to say breaks any illusion that this is my character and not Bioware's.  I realize other people don't find this a problem, and I'm not going to say it ruins the game for me but it substantially reduces my enjoyment of it.  What I want is a precis of the line that my character is going to speak.  I'm currently replaying DA2 (and have just finished replaying  ME1) and I just don't understand Bioware's motivation for hiding what I'm about to say.  As Cirram55 suggested including words from the actual line in the phrase would really help.

I don't like having my future dialogue (and / or dialoge choices) being determined by my previour responses.  There are a couple of reasons for this.  The first is general in that removing player agency is bad.  The second is that just because I choose sarcastic responses more often than not, doesn't mean I always want to be sarcastic.  I also reject the idea that because my Hawke might be generally diplomatic she can't be threatening if she wants to be.  If nothing else the fact that she has slaughtered hundreds of her enemies should carry a lot more weight than her tendency to generally be diplomatic.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 12 juin 2012 - 04:06 .

[Fallstar]

Wulfram wrote...

What I generally felt I lacked was a clear indication of intensity - is Aggressive Hawke going to be a bit miffed, simply forceful or start chewing the scenery, is Sarcastic Hawke going to make a mild witticism to ease the tension or say something outrageous?

The subcategories of tones didn't seem to help me much as far as that went.

This basically. Then again, it wouldn't really be a problem if we could just see what we're going to say instead of a paraphrase. Another problem created through the use of paraphrases.

[Cirram55]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

I'd love them to alter the dialogue wheel... by getting rid of it

Exactly.

Everyone here on the forum (or the great majority, be that as it may) seem to abhor the wheel, yet Bioware keep repeating that it is a huge step up from the dialogue-tree and, basically, they believe it to be some marvel of gaming engineering, whereas imo it only limits player agency and grants a limited range of choice in dialogues.
I understand Bioware wanting to improve it and asking us fans for advice, but everytime someone suggests something, for one reason or another, there's always a different problem, and still, as the wheel is now, it's ugly and clunky; I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

Modifié par Cirram55, 12 juin 2012 - 04:32 .

[ianvillan]

Cirram55 wrote...

One of the problems I had with the wheel was the lack of choice as well as consistency.
Three personalities just aren't enough, subsequent playthroughs get repetitive and, let's face it, DAII couldn't offer any kind of replayability other than that. Besides, I miss the fifteen-to-twenty dialogue options we had in older RPGs, or the six-to-nine we had in DAO (of course with a voiced protagonist I guess it wouldn't be possible to have more than five options).
And yes, going for an angry Hawke was a pain: every time I had to skip the investigate options because Hawke would sound schizophrenic.

They aren't going back to silent PC, so everyone should deal with it, fine, but if DAIII is going to maintain the tone concept they need to expand it, and with that expand the wheel itself.
This way even for a set protagonist like Hawke the game could offer a wider range of variables and a deeper experience, people would not sell the game two days after finishing it and everybody would be happy.

The absurd paraphrasing was another thing that plagued the game for me, and that needs to be brutally ripped off: I don't like playing guessing games. They can either include the whole text you are going to say in a tooltip (and if people are bothered with reading and then listening, they could make available a toggle to disable such tooltip) or follow some sort of coherence within the paraphrase and the actual line, meaning that if you are asking something the paraphrase would be a question; if you're ordering something then it'd be imperative; if you're stating something, enunciative; if you're expressing disbelief, it'd be an exclamation. And so on. Ideally, including in the paraphrase words from the line to be said.

[Edit] All in all:

- Things to keep
the special dialogues (if I remember correctly thay had the star icon), the bribe and lie options (already in DAO) and the possibility to ask a companion his opinion about the situation (maybe this one could be improved to be made more reactive).
- Things I missed
[/u]the intimidate and persuade options.
- Things to change
plot-wise, the importance of the line you are going to say: most of the time it felt like I simply had to choose the voice because, no matter what, the outcome of said dialogue would always be the same. I think this is one of the things that led to the one ending and to Hawke's overall irrelevance.
- Things I'd like to be featured
if DAIII PC's gonna be fixed I would like new personalities, not nice, bad, witty again;
possibly more than three and a variation of their position in the wheel (just to avoid always clicking the top right or whatever other option;
a tooltip showing the full line (with a holy toggle to enable/disable it for ADHD people):
a choesive paraphrasing method (as explained above).

I agree with everything you said and also include that there should be no auto dialogue at all.

The auto dialogue was terrible in ME3 and if its included in DA3 it will ruin the game for me.

[Nomen Mendax]

Cirram55 wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

I'd love them to alter the dialogue wheel... by getting rid of it

Exactly.

Everyone here on the forum (or the great majority, be that as it may) seem to abhor the wheel, yet Bioware keep repeating that it is a huge step up from the dialogue-tree and, basically, they believe it to be some marvel of gaming engineering, whereas imo it only limits player agency and grants a limited range of choice in dialogues.
I understand Bioware wanting to improve it and asking us fans for advice, but everytime someone suggests something, for one reason or another, there's always a different problem, and still, as the wheel is now, it's ugly and clunky; I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

I don't get it either.  There are at least two advantages of an edit box over the dialogue wheel (you can easily show an entire line, and it takes up less space) but I've yet to think of anything that the dialogue wheel does better.

On a different note, I don't like auto-dialogue but I think there are places for it.  In ME1 there are quite a few occasions where you have a choice of three lines that all just continue the conversation (and none of them earn paragon or renegade) points.  I'm pretty sure that this is something DA2 was already doing, and  I think its a good idea.

[Allan Schumacher]

I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.

I don't know the total breakdown of all the feedback though.

[FieryDove]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.

I don't know the total breakdown of all the feedback though.

The world is doomed!

The wheel is EBIL!!!!

I did not like it in ToR either. "What do you think?" = "Are you happy here?"

Really? sigh

[Xewaka]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.
I don't know the total breakdown of all the feedback though.

Conversely, there was a non-insignificant part of the player base dissapointed that the paraphrases were in DA 2 when they were mercifully absent from DA:O.

[ianvillan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.

I don't know the total breakdown of all the feedback though.

You have had a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that race selection wasn't present in DA2 after they had experienced it for DAO yet weve been told there are no plans to bring it back.

Plus you had a fair bit of feedback about how people dont like the dialogue wheel in DA2 and want to go back to a full written text system.

I know its nothing to do with you and you dont have all the feedback but there has to be some other reason for the wheel instead of feedback.

[Nomen Mendax]

FieryDove wrote...

I did not like it in ToR either. "What do you think?" = "Are you happy here?"

Really? sigh

Those are the ones I really don't understand.  Why do they need to rephrase a dialogue choice that would fit on the wheel in the first place?

[HanErlik]

What will we do with the dialogue wheel?
What will we do with the dialogue wheel?
Early in the morning.

Remove it from the face of the earth
Remove it from the face of the earth
Early in the morning.

[Xewaka]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
I did not like it in ToR either. "What do you think?" = "Are you happy here?"
Really? sigh

Those are the ones I really don't understand.  Why do they need to rephrase a dialogue choice that would fit on the wheel in the first place?

The official response is "To avoid subvocalization issues".

[Allan Schumacher]

Xewaka wrote...

Conversely, there was a non-insignificant part of the player base dissapointed that the paraphrases were in DA 2 when they were mercifully absent from DA:O.

You have had a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed
that race selection wasn't present in DA2 after they had experienced it
for DAO yet weve been told there are no plans to bring it back.

Plus
you had a fair bit of feedback about how people dont like the dialogue
wheel in DA2 and want to go back to a full written text system.

If you felt that I was unaware of these perspectives then I can assure you I am not.

How do you propose we reconcile the differences between these two groups?

[Xewaka]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Conversely, there was a non-insignificant part of the player base dissapointed that the paraphrases were in DA 2 when they were mercifully absent from DA:O.

You have had a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that race selection wasn't present in DA2 after they had experienced it for DAO yet weve been told there are no plans to bring it back.
Plus you had a fair bit of feedback about how people dont like the dialogue wheel in DA2 and want to go back to a full written text system.

If you felt that I was unaware of these perspectives then I can assure you I am not.
How do you propose we reconcile the differences between these two groups?

Keep the paraphrase wheel to avoid subvocalization issues, but, on hovering a set amount of time over a paraphrase (say, two seconds), the subtitle of the full line shows up. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a start in giving players the information they need to adequately control their characters, while allowing those with subvocalization issues to avoid triggering said issues.

Modifié par Xewaka, 12 juin 2012 - 07:44 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Interesting. Thanks!

[Persephone]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Conversely, there was a non-insignificant part of the player base dissapointed that the paraphrases were in DA 2 when they were mercifully absent from DA:O.

You have had a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed
that race selection wasn't present in DA2 after they had experienced it
for DAO yet weve been told there are no plans to bring it back.

Plus
you had a fair bit of feedback about how people dont like the dialogue
wheel in DA2 and want to go back to a full written text system.

If you felt that I was unaware of these perspectives then I can assure you I am not.

How do you propose we reconcile the differences between these two groups?

I'm not Xewaka but:

David Gaider once mentioned a Dialogue toggle...

As in: Hover over the paraphrase for a few seconds and then get the full line popping up.

That way everybody wins, no? If it can be done. But it has been done before.

Edit: GAH.

Question has already been answered!

Modifié par Persephone, 12 juin 2012 - 08:03 .

[Cirram55]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I just don't understand why they're so obsessed with it.

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.

I don't know the total breakdown of all the feedback though.

And here, in my opinion, lies one of the tough problems you're facing now. In fact, as much as fan feedback was important (then as well as now), I think you should have seen that a game like ME is diametrically different from DA.
Where one is a wonderful game for the cinematic experience it offers, the other is more about roleplaying.

We've seen it with ME3: the famous RP elments, that so many fans felt missing in ME2, weren't there, because ME3 aimed to deliver a different gaming experience. As a matter of fact everyone can notice the disappearance of the neutral dialogue option. I couldn't RP with Shepard (though I felt it was a wonderfully written character) because where I wanted him not to care for Earth I just couldn't do it. The autodialogue and the wheel prevented me from it.

Back to DA. It is supposed to be a (classic) CRPG series, not a hybrid. Yet, DAII was trying to be something I fear not even the developer truly knew what it was. The wheel was fine in ME because it was there from the beginning, while DA has always been more of a "free" (cant' find an appropriate word) game intended to work with lots of dialogue which you should always have control over.

To sum up, you who delve deep in the forum, should always think that a fan might not really know what he's talking about. Not because s/he's stupid, but because you are the professionals: fans may give you ideas, but it's up to you to consider them and "study" them, whether they're appropriate or just wild wishes. Kinda like Alistair's cameo. Useless. Many wanted it but it was only fan service, and could be summarized as "Swooping is bad".

Modifié par Cirram55, 12 juin 2012 - 08:47 .

[Realmzmaster]

Cirram55 wrote...

To sum up, you who delve deep in the forum, should always think that a fan might not really know what he's talking about. Not because s/he's stupid, but because you are the professinals, fans may give you ideas, but it's up to you to consider them and "study" them, whether they're appropriate or just wild wishes. Kinda like the Alistair cameo. Useless. Many wanted it but it was only fan service, and could be summarized as "Swooping is bad".

The professionals developers then get criticized by the fan base saying that the developers do not listen to the fans and are ignoring their suggestions because none of them are implemented in the game. The forum is also not the only way that Bioware gathers data. Some gamers choose to turn off the data collection mechanism in DAO. That will automatically give a skewed view of the demographics in favor of those who left it on or did not know it existed.

So many times the developers have to go with their outlook and vision with the product. The product gets released and then the criticism starts coming because the fan base did not like something much like what happened with DA2. Much of it justified but some unjustified. Some developers ignore the fan base and simply put out the product they want to produce. The fan base can like it or lump it.

Bioware actually listens to the fans, but that can cause some disappointment when suggestions do not get incorporated.

[CarlSpackler]

If the dialogue wheel is here to stay (and it certainly seems that it is) I can honestly say that I support any attempts to be more clear about what the paraphrasing actually gets us.  The optimal would be to show us the entire line.
The argument against showing the entire line I've seen take 2 shapes: 1.) It gets repetitive for the player to read the line and then hear the line, 2.) It still doesn't convery everything due to the cinematic nature of dialogues.
As for the first I for one do not care if its repetitive.  If hovering reveals the line then you don't force players who want don't want to read the line to do so, and give folks like myself the option of knowing what will be said.  Whatever drawbacks there may be to reading and then hearing the line would result in a net gain of my enjoyment of the game as it would allow me to feel more in control of the pc. 

As for 2, this one is perhaps a little more problematic.  Again assuming the cinematic cutscene/dialogue is here to stay (which also seems to be the case) then this becomes a little more difficult if the paraphrase sends the pc into a back and forth with an npc over witch the dialogue wheel only initiates. ('m personally not a fan of the pc saying anything without my input but c'est la vie.)  I can only say that at least giving me the first line is better than nothing and would I believe still be a net gain in enjoyment. 

(Of course I'd be happy with going back to the SP and the numerical choice of dialogue, but I know that ain't happening, just complaining!)

[brushyourteeth]

I found myself about 90 minutes into DAII thinking "man, these paraphrases are off. Like, way off. A much more accurate paraphrase of that would be [blank]"

There's a chance that this will come across as unnecessarily critical, but you guys are really trying to fix this problem, so here's some honesty - that wasn't really a problem I ever had playing any of the Mass Effect games.

I know you guys have testers that play the game before release and maybe even past a certain point there's only so much you can do to tweak what you've programmed. But I'd focus heavily on finding dialogue testers who are very familiair with the nuances of the language and the intricacies of human interaction (I myself spent half my education in English and the other half in psych/soc. so I may have even read more into the paraphrases than I needed to). I'd find people who are unfamiliar with the particular story that you're telling and get their feedback about what makes sense and what doesn't.

To that end I think it also needs to be acknowledged that the meaning icons are still a little tricky because words like sarcastic and aggressive still have pretty subjective meanings. I'd play a direct Hawke and find her responses to be perfectly appropriate for 2/3 of the game and then find that she'd suddenly fly off the handle and go bi-polar on me. For instance there were times that the paraphrase would say something like "Your actions are unacceptable." but what Hawke would actually do was step threateningly toward the NPC and growl "You deserve to die for what you've done."

ME proved to me that the dialogue wheel with paraphrases can work. It's still not my favorite method, but I have faith that you guys can make the best of it.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 12 juin 2012 - 08:25 .