342 réponses à ce sujet

[FedericoV]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Witcher2/Deus Ex:HR and Uncharted are worlds appart. Both DX:HR and Witcher have RPG combat. Uncharted does not. Drake is as good as I am from the start to the finish.

Imho, in term of combat, TW2 suffers in many ways of the same compromises of DA2, just on a smaller scale since it's not a party based game. It's just the aestetic of TW2 combat (and a good dose of voluntary blindess from the fans) that saves it from the criticism DA2 received (at least DA2 never used blatant QTE sequences in boss fights as far as I can remember). I have still to play DX:HR so I cannot comment on it.

I know that those games are still worlds apart from the like of Uncharted because of RPG combat. That's exactly the point I was trying to make and that's the problem. That's why Uncharted sell like chocolate while aRPGs struggle to achieve the same level of popularity and appeal. And that's why Skyrim outsell even the Uncharted and the Assassin Creed. I could be wrong off course but in my opinion, RPG combat is not the most adequate tool for the kind of storydriven/cinematic experiences these games wants to create.

Modifié par FedericoV, 25 juin 2012 - 09:03 .

[AkiKishi]

FedericoV wrote...
Imho, in term of combat, TW2 suffers in many ways of the same compromises of DA2, just on a smaller scale since it's not a party based game. It's just the aestetic of TW2 combat (and a good dose of oversight from the fans) that saves it from the criticism DA2 received (at least DA2 never used blatant QTE sequences in boss fights). I have still to play DX:HR so I cannot comment it.

I know that those games are still worlds apart from the like of Uncharted because of RPG combat. That's exactly the point and that's the problem. That's why Uncharted sell like chocolate while aRPGs struggle to achieve the same level of popularity and appeal. And that's why Skyrim outsell even the Uncharted and the Assassin Creed. I could be wrong off course but in my opinion, RPG combat is not the most adequate tool for the kind of storydriven/cinematic experiences these games wants to create.

Witcher2 combat had a really nice flow once you got the hang of it. You could also tailor it to either cover your weaknesses or enhance your strengths which is core RPG stuff. The act 1 boss was a bit of a pain, if you never read the journal. Most of the critism I've seen of DA2's combat is speed and animation related.

Action RPGs vary greatly so it's hard to pin down. Diablo bills itself as an action RPG for example. DA2 does not.

[Uccio]

labargegrrrl wrote...


i think we all can agree that the romance icons were a very, VERY helpful evolution from DAO.  there was nothing worse than having no idea that you were actually flirting with Alistar when you weren't trying to.  

No we can´t. I fact I think we can all agree that the icons, romance included, were a major step down from DAO. I could even say it is a dumbed down system for people who have problems with reading comprehension, but I won´t because I do not wish to offend people. And my mother tongues is not english so there. DA is supposed to be a rpg where complex discussion options are available and player can then choose for him/herself what option would be the best for the situation. Not to be spoon fed, here take this if you want to be a ****, douchebag or moron (my
interpretation of the dummy icons). I had no problems choosing my discussion options in O, not at once. I did however try different outcomes with save and load method, but I did that with DA2 too so I see no problems with that aproach either.

[joyner1229]

In terms of the icons, I also think they need to go. The reality is, in life when you are talking to people, you can say things that are taken the wrong way. But when you're choosing icons instead of lines, I think the dialogue is a bit cheapened. I do like class-based responses, though. Like a mage being able to tell Levi that the veil is thin at Soldier's Peak.

And in regards to the flirting options, I can't agree that they were helpful. First, they weren't so much "flirting" options as "I WANT TO JUMP YOUR BONES" options. Very, very awkward most of the time. DA:O's flirt options are pretty clear if you ask me. Telling Leliana that she's the loveliest sister Warden's seen or Alistair how handsome he is seems like pretty standard flirting.

Now in regards to combat, I think a lot of the complaints also stem from the waves (obviously) and enemies that die in one hit so that they splatter and we feel and look HELLAWESOMECOOL. In reality, it's just annoying.

I personally also hate CCCs because they feel arbitrary, gimmicky, and make the game FAR too easy. CCCs should be something like a rogue having an oil flask that maybe slows enemies on hit. The oil additionally makes targets more uh...flammable and they take 15% more damage from mage fire attacks. Not stagger (look for little jagged symbol above enemies heads) and then chain lightning them for 6X times the damage. That doesn't make sense to me.

Modifié par joyner1229, 25 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[AkiKishi]

I'm not a fan of the icons but as long as you have herosexual characters wandering around then you need them.

CCC's are supposed to be easy because without them the combat becomes a huge drag.

[joyner1229]

Right, and they did somewhat address that with the patch that nerfed them and enemies' health, simultaneously. The problem is that the game becomes just how do I set up and exploit CCCs instead of how do I utilize general strategy, the builds of my characters, tactical placement, the environment, etc. to beat this encounter.

[SerTabris]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I'm not a fan of the icons but as long as you have herosexual characters wandering around then you need them. 

I don't think it's just there; Alistair and ME1 Kaidan were both (effectively) straight and I had some issue distinguishing 'good friend' and 'romance' responses.

[Iosev]

My favorite aspect of the dialogue wheel in Dragon Age 2 was how it could organize up to 10 different dialogue choices at one time (5 on one wheel, and 5 on the hidden, investigative wheel), without having it take up much space on the screen. With its icons and special dialogue choices (i.e., companion-, personality-, and class-specific responses), I personally thought that the dialogue wheel in DA2 was a massive improvement over the one used in the Mass Effect series.

One of my biggest gripes about the top-down dialogue structure of Dragon Age: Origins is how it is less organized, at least compared to the dialogue wheel of DA2. For example, there were many instances during my first playthrough where I ended a conversation prematurely, because it wasn't always clear which responses were investigative, and which responses progressed or ended conversations. In contrast, in DA2, I always knew which responses progressed conversations (the choices on the right-side of the wheel), which responses were investigative (the hidden menu, accessed through a toggle on the left-side of the wheel), and which responses were special (also on the left side of the wheel).

While adding icons to the top-down dialogue design could improve organization (by labeling which responses were investigative), I think the design takes up too much space on the screen (in particular, when there are more than 3 dialogue choices on the screen). This is especially true for DA:O on the home consoles, as the text in the dialogue is much larger than it is on the PC version.

While I think the hover-over design used in DE:HR is a decent compromise to show exact dialogue responses, I personally thought that all of the text displayed on the screen to be often distracting. Granted, it works in DE:HR because you're often in first-person view and Jensen is viewing the world with cybernetic enhancements.  However, I can understand if Bioware doesn't want to clutter the dialogue screen too much with the Dragon Age series, especially given their cinematic approach.  I personally turn off subtitles when I play DA because I enjoy watching lip movements, facial reactions, and other visual stimuli (it is how I immerse myself in the dialogue), which is why I prefer the minimal approach offered through DA2's dialogue wheel.

While I'm open to changes to the dialogue structure for the next game, I just hope that Bioware knows that there are people like me who enjoyed the dialogue wheel in DA2.

Modifié par arcelonious, 25 juin 2012 - 06:59 .

[Allan Schumacher]

FedericoV wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Witcher2/Deus Ex:HR and Uncharted are worlds appart. Both DX:HR and Witcher have RPG combat. Uncharted does not. Drake is as good as I am from the start to the finish.

Imho, in term of combat, TW2 suffers in many ways of the same compromises of DA2, just on a smaller scale since it's not a party based game. It's just the aestetic of TW2 combat (and a good dose of voluntary blindess from the fans) that saves it from the criticism DA2 received (at least DA2 never used blatant QTE sequences in boss fights as far as I can remember). I have still to play DX:HR so I cannot comment on it.

I know that those games are still worlds apart from the like of Uncharted because of RPG combat. That's exactly the point I was trying to make and that's the problem. That's why Uncharted sell like chocolate while aRPGs struggle to achieve the same level of popularity and appeal. And that's why Skyrim outsell even the Uncharted and the Assassin Creed. I could be wrong off course but in my opinion, RPG combat is not the most adequate tool for the kind of storydriven/cinematic experiences these games wants to create.

I'll add that the "RPG combat" of Alpha Protocol is likely the reason why it wasn't as successful (as sad as that makes me).

[deuce985]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Witcher2/Deus Ex:HR and Uncharted are worlds appart. Both DX:HR and Witcher have RPG combat. Uncharted does not. Drake is as good as I am from the start to the finish.

Imho, in term of combat, TW2 suffers in many ways of the same compromises of DA2, just on a smaller scale since it's not a party based game. It's just the aestetic of TW2 combat (and a good dose of voluntary blindess from the fans) that saves it from the criticism DA2 received (at least DA2 never used blatant QTE sequences in boss fights as far as I can remember). I have still to play DX:HR so I cannot comment on it.

I know that those games are still worlds apart from the like of Uncharted because of RPG combat. That's exactly the point I was trying to make and that's the problem. That's why Uncharted sell like chocolate while aRPGs struggle to achieve the same level of popularity and appeal. And that's why Skyrim outsell even the Uncharted and the Assassin Creed. I could be wrong off course but in my opinion, RPG combat is not the most adequate tool for the kind of storydriven/cinematic experiences these games wants to create.

I'll add that the "RPG combat" of Alpha Protocol is likely the reason why it wasn't as successful (as sad as that makes me).

Yes, oh god yes. I love that game but that is definitely something that annoys me.

It also annoyed me in ME1. Getting too "RPGish" in a game that involves heavy shooting turns it into a very clunky experience. It simply does not mesh well when you're sitting in cover firing weapons across the map. It works differently for fantasy games with swords and shields...but shooting, no, it has no place. I don't want to hold a assault rifle in my hand and two feet in front of me my aiming reticule expands to the size of my screen...and I can't hit anything.

It's fine if RPG mechanics reinforce the shooting gameplay, as it does in ME2/ME3. But ME1/AP went overkill on the accuracy proficiency. I think ME2/ME3 strikes a perfect balance between shooter+RPG, a hybrid if you will, IMO. I might be in the minority of that opinion and people will probably say, "well no, ME2/ME3 is a pure shooter when it comes to combat". I'd argue differently but whatever. 

Modifié par deuce985, 25 juin 2012 - 07:19 .

[RazorrX]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


I'll add that the "RPG combat" of Alpha Protocol is likely the reason why it wasn't as successful (as sad as that makes me).

Being that I love Alpha Protocol and really would love to see bioware go with that form of dialog if we are forced with the wheel (timer and all).  I do think that if it was released when it was originally ready (and not delayed by sony) it would have had a much higher rating.  Sadly it was (imo) ME2 that killed AP.  They delayed and let ME2 release with its many improvements to combat and thus AP was compared to it rather than ME1.

I found personally that AP had much less disconnect between my choice in dialog and what actually happend.  Perhaps it was because you knew going in that one was a more professional tone, one was angry and one was flippant.  I had times with Hawke (and Shepard) that what was said was in no way what I had wanted or thought i would have (can not point to exact instances anymore, too long since I played).  

I do think the full Choice & Consequencs system in AP was amazing though.

[Cultist]

labargegrrrl wrote...

i think we all can agree that the romance icons were a very, VERY helpful evolution from DAO.  there was nothing worse than having no idea that you were actually flirting with Alistar when you weren't trying to. 

No. On the contrary, icons just acted as a background laugher in TV sitcoms, just in case people would know that "I will kill you!" is agressive and "Let's try to talk" is diplomatic.

[labargegrrrl]

wow. that single line generated more response than i thought it would. am i getting forum murderknifed here or what? hard for me to say, given that i apparently don't know how to read or interpret the english language properly and am completely lacking in imagination! lol

on a side note, i'm sorry i did that VERY arrogant thing where i acted like i was speaking for everyone. i hate when people do that and i didn't intend to slip into it myself. i should have expected a far worse response for something like that.

what i INTENDED to convey was that i personally found it helpful. there were obvious flirts in origins, but there were also accidental ones. could that be remedied without a wheel? sure. i liked the wheel better. just sayin. as for the realism of people taking something wrong because you're being nice to them...Anders. 'nuff said?

[joyner1229]

Yes, I mean Anders' issue is not really wheel or tree. I don't even mind that he makes a pass at Hawke. People hit on other people in real life. It's the rivalry points you get for turning him down that is ridiculous. I didn't mean to attack you, but like you say, accidental flirts are not really a byproduct of wheel or tree. It can happen in both and can be avoided in both. In a tree, you could simply add a (Flirt) before lines where you a make a pass at someone.

I also forgot to mention that one of my personal gripes with the conversation system is that many people (myself included) liked or had no problem with how it was implemented in Origins. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a similar conversation system in a sequel. If the developers wanted more of a third-person story/ME style system, I think they should make a new series/spinoff rather than just replacing the things that people enjoyed for the sake of "advancing." Whether one is better than the other is kind of irrelevant to me because of that.

Sure you can work to refine the tree, and I'm not saying a similar system can't be implemented with the wheel (plenty of people have given suggestions), but to just import a conversation system from another game (as if ME and DA are interchangeable) and replace a system that many players liked just seems...I don't know the word... Questionable? If ME3 completely replaced the wheel with the Origins-style conversation system, people would be just as upset, and they should be.

[abnocte]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.

I don't know the total breakdown of all the feedback though.

Excuse me, but over the years plenty of people have asked Bioware to include horses, jumping, swimming, capes, sheaths, barbarian class, bowstrings and what not. Everytime I saw a developer address such issues they would either explain that:

a) It would modify the core elements of the game ( ex: horses, jumping, swimming )
It's a "nice to have" but not in priority list

So saying that it was included "because a large amount of people was disapointed that it wasn't present in DAO" is hardly a justification, specially since I consider the dialog wheel a "core element of the game". 

I would like to think that Bioware, as an experienced developer, took other things into consideration before deciding that they would include the wheel in the next DA.
Just because it works in ME doesn't mean it has to work in DA, more so taking into account that ( I think ) the 
reason it works in ME is because of the polarization of choices ( paragon-renegade vs diplomatic-sarcastic-
aggresive ).

Another thing I would like to address is that you argumented that the problem of having only text is that there's information missing and the player can missinterpret what is the intention behind a line( as per writers' design ).

In real life we have intonation and body language.
In books we have the intonation specified with anotations as "He said sarcastically".

In games we had:

1) Plain text, no tone.
2) Tone icons + paraphrases, no text.

I don't know what others think, but as I see it we still have the same problem:

There is information missing.

We could argue wich one is more important ( wording or tone ) but from a roleplaying prespective I think that the 
more information we get, the better.

But if I have to choose... I will pick text any day of the week, why? because plenty of times in my life I have 
been missinterpreted, so accepting that something as limited as a game can missinterpret what I meant upon choosing a certain line of text is piece of cake ( or if you prefer accepting that I missundertood what was the writer's intention for a particular line ), but accepting that I can't roleplay a character the way I want because I can't 
make any sense out of a paraphrase and an icon... <_<


So pretty please with sugar on top:

- Tooltips upon hovering on a paraphrase showing the full text or full text with an icon at the begining.

- Don't block dialog options just because I'm not diplomatic/sarcastic/aggressive.
I still don't understand why I can't tell there is a fire to those guards unless Hawke is "sarcastic". A diplomatic person would try to avoid needless combat...

- Don't block dialog options just because we are on a friendship/rivalry path.
I found bizarre that upon refusing to help Merril with the Eluvian I ended in the rivalry path, she appeared at Hawke's house and I only had 2 options:
1 ) bed her
2 ) insult her
The reason my Hawke had refused to help Merril was irrelevant, the game assumed what it was... where is the roleplaying here?

Modifié par abnocte, 26 juin 2012 - 11:40 .

[labargegrrrl]

joyner1229 wrote...

Yes, I mean Anders' issue is not really wheel or tree. I don't even mind that he makes a pass at Hawke. People hit on other people in real life. It's the rivalry points you get for turning him down that is ridiculous. I didn't mean to attack you, but like you say, accidental flirts are not really a byproduct of wheel or tree. It can happen in both and can be avoided in both. In a tree, you could simply add a (Flirt) before lines where you a make a pass at someone.
 

no, i get that.  i'd simply like to know whether MY character intends to flirt or not.  that's part of what i liked about the feature.  i also liked the fact that i knew that i had to basically draw the line and tell him to f*ck off to ensure he wouldn't take things the wrong way in the future.  i knew when MY lines were going to come off as flirty, heartbreaking, or just...me.  i don't feel like i had that option in DAO.  you're right about the fact that it could just be added to a tree with the (Flirt) before lines idea, tho.  that's fair enough.

i still like cheese wheels more than stale, dry biscuts.  just a flavor thing.  maybe the first tastes of despair, but the latter doesn't taste like...anything.

 

[Sylvius the Mad]

deuce985 wrote...

Yes, oh god yes. I love that game but that is definitely something that annoys me.

It also annoyed me in ME1. Getting too "RPGish" in a game that involves heavy shooting turns it into a very clunky experience. It simply does not mesh well when you're sitting in cover firing weapons across the map. It works differently for fantasy games with swords and shields...but shooting, no, it has no place. I don't want to hold a assault rifle in my hand and two feet in front of me my aiming reticule expands to the size of my screen...and I can't hit anything.

It's fine if RPG mechanics reinforce the shooting gameplay, as it does in ME2/ME3. But ME1/AP went overkill on the accuracy proficiency. I think ME2/ME3 strikes a perfect balance between shooter+RPG, a hybrid if you will, IMO. I might be in the minority of that opinion and people will probably say, "well no, ME2/ME3 is a pure shooter when it comes to combat". I'd argue differently but whatever. 

I love ME1's combat system.  Outside of FO3's VATS, ME1 offers the best interpretation I've yet seen of RPG combat in a shooter interface.  Everything was stat-driven, and you could select targets while paused.  There was no mandatory real-time component at all.

Anything more actiony than ME1 has no business in a roleplaying game.  Action combat is a complete non-starter for me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

labargegrrrl wrote...

no, i get that.  i'd simply like to know whether MY character intends to flirt or not.  that's part of what i liked about the feature.  i also liked the fact that i knew that i had to basically draw the line and tell him to f*ck off to ensure he wouldn't take things the wrong way in the future.  i knew when MY lines were going to come off as flirty, heartbreaking, or just...me. 

How I intend my lines and how the NPCs take my lines should be different things.  DA2's icons made it impossible for me to be misunderstood.  I couldn't ever fail in dialogue.  That's a huge problem.

DAO let me be flirty or funny or intimidating whenever I wanted to be, and sometimes it didn't work and my PC ended up feeling like an idiot.  That's good emergent gameplay.  DA2 had none of it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

There was actually a large amount of feedback about people being disappointed that it wasn't present in DAO after they had experienced it for Mass Effect.

So you're saying we should blame the Mass Effect team for ruining BioWare?

Voicing the PC was never a good idea.  If you've created a market expectation that the PC will be voiced, then this problem is one of your own making.  Fix it.

[Allan Schumacher]

So you're saying we should blame the Mass Effect team for ruining BioWare?

No, I'm saying that there are fans of our games that preferred the dialogue wheel over the full text lines.

So saying that it was included "because a large amount of people was disapointed that it wasn't present in DAO" is hardly a justification, specially since I consider the dialog wheel a "core element of the game".

I would like to think that Bioware, as an experienced developer, took other things into consideration before deciding that they would include the wheel in the next DA.

Hmm, I didn't mean to say it was the "only" reason. But since someone asked "why we were so obsessed with it" I felt it prudent to point out that we're not just ostensibly doing it to be difficult and that there are fans out there that actually prefer it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So you're saying we should blame the Mass Effect team for ruining BioWare?

No, I'm saying that there are fans of our games that preferred the dialogue wheel over the full text lines.

But they were apparently unaware of that preference prior to ME.

Being unaware that you want something is not materially different from not wanting it.

[Allan Schumacher]

But they were apparently unaware of that preference prior to ME.

Being unaware that you want something is not materially different from not wanting it.

I fail to see your point. These people preferred the dialogue wheel from Mass Effect and felt it was an improvement over how conversations are done in RPGs. When they played Dragon Age, they felt it was a regression.

If you wish to conclude that this is all Mass Effect's fault, then that's your prerogative.

I have no desire to get into a semantic argument with you.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


I fail to see your point. These people preferred the dialogue wheel from Mass Effect and felt it was an improvement over how conversations are done in RPGs. When they played Dragon Age, they felt it was a regression.

Something they apparently wouldn't have felt if they hadn't seen ME's dialogue wheel first.

I'm trying to understand how BioWare can take a dialogue system that mirrors real-world conversations just about perfectly, fundamentally ruin it, and have anyone call it progress.

[Mike_Neel]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...


I fail to see your point. These people preferred the dialogue wheel from Mass Effect and felt it was an improvement over how conversations are done in RPGs. When they played Dragon Age, they felt it was a regression.

Something they apparently wouldn't have felt if they hadn't seen ME's dialogue wheel first.

I'm trying to understand how BioWare can take a dialogue system that mirrors real-world conversations just about perfectly, fundamentally ruin it, and have anyone call it progress.

So you're saying that someone that prefers the wheel didn't play the earlier games that didn't have a wheel first? 

Basically you're saying it's unlikely, nay impossible, that a person may have played DA:O or any other text dialogue option first and then play ME with the dialogue wheel and prefer the wheel. 

That's a bit silly. Unless I'm misunderstanding. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mike_Neel wrote...

So you're saying that someone that prefers the wheel didn't play the earlier games that didn't have a wheel first?

No, I'm saying that someone who prefers the wheel now after having played Mass Effect would be less likely to recognise their preference for the wheel if they'd never seen one at all.

It's like how you're unlikely to know that Durien is your favourite food if you've never had Durien.