26 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

I find it obvious that Anders has more responsibilty in the storyline than Hawke does. Hawke acts as the player wills, but the game is more event-driven than character-driven, Hawke has little personal effect on main events. Out of all the characters Anders is the most important (Varic is important as well because he is telling the story) Hawke feels more like a spectator which I'm not criticising just stating. And other companions state opinions.

The stalemate between Mages and Templars is broken by Anders as he destroys the Chantry and the Right of Anullment is invoked. This event is a world changer that Anders causes and makes all Magi Towers rebel against the Templars causing war. So to correct the saying "Hawke is the most important person in Thedas" it should be Anders so Cassandra should be looking into Anders story rather than Hawke's story.

Am I right?

I am also not ignoring the fact Hawle kills Orsino and Meredith, and gets the lyrium idol.

Modifié par Karlone123, 11 juin 2012 - 09:23 .

[jbrand2002uk]

I'd disagree because any mook could blow up the chantry and if Anders hadn't someone else would have eventually Hawke on the other hand as you say ensures flemeth has a backup should morrigan or the Warden kill her Defeats Meredith and Orsino not forgetting He's the only person to be called Basalit Aan by The Arishok plus he also Leads the charge to drive out the Qunari and defeats the Arishok as well as finding the lyrium idol, dealing with Corypheus and killing Duke Prosper too so that makes Hawke the mosre important by a long shot

[dragonflight288]

I would say Anders is more important to the narrative than Hawke, but Hawke is far more important than Anders as a symbolized figure, the Ferelden who went from rags to riches, then moved on to become the Champion. Anders, before the big bang, pretty much ran a free clinic for people in the slums, and wasn't really that well known overall until after the fact.

[thats1evildude]

Was Loghain more important to the plot of DAO than the Warden because he always abandons the field at Ostagar no matter what you do?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 juin 2012 - 02:30 .

[Tommyspa]

Anders steals the show in act 3, at least. More important though? No. Though am I the only one who enjoys when my companions nut up against what the PC may want? Anyway, the Hawke is the most important person in Thedas is due to reputation and respect, not exclusively being the most capable of fixing everything, that'll be our next PC most likely. Though we have no basis for how important Hawke is now because we have no idea what he is doing now, 3 years after the Kirkwall Rebellion which he always puts down not matter who you side with.

[wsandista]

Yes

[robertthebard]

Yeah, that's why, when Anders proclaims that the Grand Cleric can't help them, Meredith calls him by name. Wait, his name isn't Mage, is it? I don't recall the Arishok demanding a 1v1 with Anders either, come to think of it, and since, in my reality, Anders is pretty much running his free clinic, or doing his plot specific quests, he's pretty much unknown, save by the rebel mages he says he's helping out. I have to wonder though, if Hawke hadn't defeated the Qunari, would there be a Chantry to blow up?

[Vincent Laww]

Hawke feels like a poor story implementation devise. I really never felt a personal connection to this particular character. Feels more or less like the product of a Bureaucracy instead of a product of the player.

[Great_Horn]

Well, I definitely see Anders as the trigger for the Mages vers. Templars conflict. As far as I remember the novel Asunder correctly, he’s been called the madmen who destroyed the Chantry in Kirkwall.

Hawke was only an innocent bystander.

[Fallstar]

I'd agree; Anders destroying the chantry and igniting the Mage-Templar War is far more significant to the world of DA than anything Hawke does. Bear in mind also that he could have played a large part in helping the Warden during the events of Awakening, and it seems pretty clear that Anders has had a larger impact on the world than Hawke.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juin 2012 - 03:42 .

[EricHVela]

Depends: Anders is a plot device.

Do plot devices trump the main characters in their importance?

[Fallstar]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Depends: Anders is a plot device.

Do plot devices trump the main characters in their importance?

Anders is a character...whilst his actions might be a plot device, its perfectly possible for the character who carried out those actions to be more important that the main character.

[Gervaise]

Anders fame is known only to those in his circle - he has contacts in the resolutionists and this may well be how Fiona knows what he did (Asunder), plus she is also an ex-Grey Warden.

However, Hawke has already established quite a reputation by the beginning of Act 3, not only in Kirkwall but even as far away as Tevinter (see letter from Feynriel), where his/her defeat of the Arishok has given them legendary status.

Anders blew up the Chantry but that was the sum total of his plan. He clearly thought he would die/be executed and that he would be a martyr to the cause of Mage Freedom. Hawke however was responsible for picking up the pieces and either making a stand against the unjust slaughter of the Circle Mages or helping the templars consolidate their hold on the city.

If Hawke had not been in the city, Anders might never have got as far as he did. On the other hand, without Hawke there, the templars might well have been overrun by possessed recruits, Tahrone may have caused far more problems , other blood mages would also have continued to run free.

Without Hawke's backing and muscle Bartrand's expedition would have been a failure (Anders' maps helped but were not as vital as Hawke's involvement). Of course without Hawke the idol would have remained in the Deep Roads, but Meredith was pretty paranoid anyway. However, who knows what damage might have been done if the idol had fallen into different hands?

Without Hawke much of the nobility would have been killed or enslaved by the Qunari, the Chantry would have been destroyed and much of the city as well, as the rogue mages fought against the Qunari. Since Qunari numbers were small it is entirely possible the mages would have been victorious but only until the Divine launched an Exalted March.

Whilst Anders' actions caused a degree of unrest among the mages elsewhere, according to the novel Asunder it did not result in the immediate rebellion (as claimed by Varric). For the catalyst for that you must look elsewhere (Asunder).
So on balance I would say that Hawke was far more important than Anders to Thedas in a general sense and neither was particularly important to the Mage Templar war.

[EricHVela]

DuskWarden wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Depends: Anders is a plot device.

Do plot devices trump the main characters in their importance?

Anders is a character...whilst his actions might be a plot device, its perfectly possible for the character who carried out those actions to be more important that the main character.

It would seem to me that it's the other way around: The plot device used Anders, and not Anders created the plot device.

[Fallstar]

Gervaise wrote...

Anders fame is known only to those in his circle - he has contacts in the resolutionists and this may well be how Fiona knows what he did (Asunder), plus she is also an ex-Grey Warden.

However, Hawke has already established quite a reputation by the beginning of Act 3, not only in Kirkwall but even as far away as Tevinter (see letter from Feynriel), where his/her defeat of the Arishok has given them legendary status.

Anders blew up the Chantry but that was the sum total of his plan. He clearly thought he would die/be executed and that he would be a martyr to the cause of Mage Freedom. Hawke however was responsible for picking up the pieces and either making a stand against the unjust slaughter of the Circle Mages or helping the templars consolidate their hold on the city.

If Hawke had not been in the city, Anders might never have got as far as he did. On the other hand, without Hawke there, the templars might well have been overrun by possessed recruits, Tahrone may have caused far more problems , other blood mages would also have continued to run free.

Without Hawke's backing and muscle Bartrand's expedition would have been a failure (Anders' maps helped but were not as vital as Hawke's involvement). Of course without Hawke the idol would have remained in the Deep Roads, but Meredith was pretty paranoid anyway. However, who knows what damage might have been done if the idol had fallen into different hands?

Without Hawke much of the nobility would have been killed or enslaved by the Qunari, the Chantry would have been destroyed and much of the city as well, as the rogue mages fought against the Qunari. Since Qunari numbers were small it is entirely possible the mages would have been victorious but only until the Divine launched an Exalted March.

Whilst Anders' actions caused a degree of unrest among the mages elsewhere, according to the novel Asunder it did not result in the immediate rebellion (as claimed by Varric). For the catalyst for that you must look elsewhere (Asunder).
So on balance I would say that Hawke was far more important than Anders to Thedas in a general sense and neither was particularly important to the Mage Templar war.

I would say that although other events in Asunder might provide further provocation for a Mage-Templar war, the state of play as we know it at the end of DA:2 is that the circle's are rebelling; it has already started, which is due to Anders. 

If Hawke killing the Arishok is the cause of a future invasion by the Qunari, then any Mage-Templar war would probably pale in comparison and Hawke's actions would have a far greater impact on the world than Ander's. But since it was an honourable duel, I doubt the Qunari would see that as a reason to invade.

Between dragons and the Ancient Rock Wraith, it seems unlikely that Bartrand's expedition would have succeeded without Hawke. Meaning Hawke is pretty much responsible for the lyrium idol ever seeing the light of day and for all the evil that results from that. In keeping with his character, he didn't have a clue what he was doing of course, so I guess that partially excuses him from what happened as a result of his actions. 

Overall I still think Anders had a bigger impact on the world. Like Hawke he directly helped people on a personal level with his healing in Dark Town, and like Hawke he was involved in events that could be a catalyst for massive change. But I think the changes as a result of Ander's actions will be more significant than those of Hawke's. 

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juin 2012 - 04:20 .

[Fallstar]

Although having said that, we have no idea what happened with Corypheus. It is possible that Hawke inadvertently released one of the original Magisters back into the world, so I guess that could have pretty significant impact.

Basically we haven't seen far enough into the future yet to determine who has had a bigger impact.

ReggarBlane wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Depends: Anders is a plot device.

Do plot devices trump the main characters in their importance?

Anders is a character...whilst his actions might be a plot device, its perfectly possible for the character who carried out those actions to be more important that the main character.

It would seem to me that it's the other way around: The plot device used Anders, and not Anders created the plot device.

 

It depends how you think of it. If you are thinking of it that D.G. or whoever it was said "right, we need something to blow up a chantry and spark a war, lets see who fits the bill" then yes Anders was 'used' by the plot device. But that's breaking the fourth wall in a way, we are presented with reasons why Anders blows the chantry up, and he is building up to something like that throughout the entire game. In game, Anders does 'create' the plot device.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juin 2012 - 04:30 .

[Most Definitely Sane]

Yes and no.

Anders triggers the events, Hawke chose how they unfolded.

[Great_Horn]

Gervaise wrote...

Anders fame is known only to those in his circle - he has contacts in the resolutionists and this may well be how Fiona knows what he did (Asunder), plus she is also an ex-Grey Warden.

[Snip ...]

Really?

Maybe you could show me in the chronicles of Thedas the event, where a single mage ever before created a weapon of mass destruction?

So nobody expect the other magi circles noticed? IMO every citizen in southern Thedas knows what Anders have done!

The duel with the Arishok coulde be skipped by the player and for the rest of the story tale, well I would only trust Varric as far as I can throw him.  

The novel Asunder covers why the conflict really escalated.

Modifié par Great_Horn, 12 juin 2012 - 05:12 .

[Corker]

Karlone123 wrote...

So to correct the saying "Hawke is the most important person in Thedas" it should be Anders so Cassandra should be looking into Anders story rather than Hawke's story.

In her first conversation with Varric, Cassandra seems to think that Hawke was a mastermind - that everything from the lyrium idol to the Chantry was some sort of grand master plan - one assumes to either free the mages or usurp the viscounty, depending on your ending.  She thinks Hawke planned it all, the whole 'rise to power,' and I'd guess she thinks Anders was just one of Hawke's minions. 

Not too hard to understand why: Hawke returns with the lyrium idol, Hawke defeats the Arishok, Hawke was there when the Chantry blew.  Hawke keeps turning up at *all* the major events in a way that the other companions don't (Varric isn't intrinsically tied to the qunari; Isabela has nothing to do with the mages; Anders is optional on the Deep Roads quest).  She sees a pattern and is suspicious.

As to whose story it is?  That depends on which story you're talking about.  If it's "How the Mage/Templar War Began," then it probably is more Anders' story, although then it's very poorly structured.  You could leave out most of Act 2 and the 'capstone' quest of Act 1.  It *feels* like that's the story, because that's what the Act 3 climax points to, and it's what's left unresolved.  But I don't think that's DA2's actual story.

"The Rise of Kirkwall's Champion and How She Fell" is probably the actual story: Hawke going from rags to riches to exile.  Along the way, she influences and impacts many lives, but there are others on courses she can't alter.  If this is the case, then yeah, it's obviously Hawke's story. Anders's actions impact that story in a dramatic way, and ripple widely past Kirkwall, but it's not his story.

Or, to use an Origins analogy: If Loghain or Alistair strike the final blow against the Archdemon, it doesn't stop the game from being about the Warden.

[mousestalker]

If you read the fanfic on kmeme, it's obvious Fenris thinks so.

Modifié par mousestalker, 12 juin 2012 - 06:12 .

[Gervaise]

By the end of DA2 the mage templar war has begun because the events in Asunder have already happened. There is a 2 year gap between when Anders blew the Chantry and when the final split took place. Even before the bomb people knew that mages were creating problems in Kirkwall and watching intently to see what happened. Word would have got out about the destruction of the Chantry and that a mage was responsible but not necessarily his name except among those in the know.

However, whilst the events in Kirkwall cause a general unrest in the Circles, when Fiona tried her first attempt at calling for independence, it was rejected by the other mages and then the templars moved to prevent further gatherings of mages. When the final breakdown occurred, the mages only voted to fight because they had been backed into a corner and even then it was a near run thing. If anything it was the actions of the Divine that ultimately led to this happening - something of an irony since she was trying to be more sympathetic towards the mages.

Cassandra, who would be aware of the events in Asunder, was presumably following up on what did happen in Kirkwall because it may be her superior, the Divine, wanted to find out if there had been anything more to the events there than they had been led to believe, particularly since the leader of the rebellion was an ex-Grey Warden and so was the bomber in Kirkwall and many of the people involved were ex-Ferelden's. Clearly though Cassandra thinks the person she needs to investigate is Hawke, not Anders, which would be odd if Anders was thought to be the prime motivator of the rebellion. Hawke was a high profile figure, the Champion of Kirkwall, whose name had become involved with the rebellion in Kirkwall and therefore it is hardly surprising that Cassandra suspected that Hawke was actually the instigator of everything that happened.

[Sir JK]

I wouldn't say that Anders is more important than Hawke, just like I wouldn't say that Gavrilo Princip was more important than the man he shot. Yes, what Anders did was significant. But he had never been in the position to do so had Hawke not been there to protect him (by mere presence), assist him (in up to three companion quests) and enable him (both friendship and rivalry paths motivate him).

Moreover, Hawke was a big player in all the events that led to Meredith's radicalization. Hawke helped recover the Lyrium Idol, Hawke did encounter the Starkhaven mages whom all later played significant roles in the uprising (which Hawke figured in), Hawke did encounter and stop Tarohne's plot and was there for the act 3 speech.

Hawke, Meredith, Orsino, the Arishok, Elthina, Viscount Dumar and Anders were all tied up in a huge net where oulling one thread caused ripples in the whole net. The whole set of events wouldn't have transpired with one of them missing. However the only one that was there for every single significant event was Hawke. Which is, from a certain perspective, Hawke was the most important. Not because Hawke did the one significant event, not because Hawke determined how a certain thing transpired. But for all the little things that aligned everything towards the grand finale.

In a way. Hawke's the most important player because Hawke made it all happen.

[LolaLei]

I'd say Anders is a plot heavy companion and envitably caused the whole mage/templar rebellion to kick off but I wouldn't say he was more important than Hawke in terms of how the story played out, simply because all we really saw was Hawke's actions and reactions, regardless of what Anders is doing behind the scenes. Plus, Hawke pretty much had a hand in every little thing that went wrong in Kirkwall since his/her arrival, be it through his/her actions or through putting a stop to some dastardly plan.

[WhiteKnyght]

Karlone123 wrote...

I find it obvious that Anders has more responsibilty in the storyline than Hawke does. Hawke acts as the player wills, but the game is more event-driven than character-driven, Hawke has little personal effect on main events. Out of all the characters Anders is the most important (Varic is important as well because he is telling the story) Hawke feels more like a spectator which I'm not criticising just stating. And other companions state opinions.

The stalemate between Mages and Templars is broken by Anders as he destroys the Chantry and the Right of Anullment is invoked. This event is a world changer that Anders causes and makes all Magi Towers rebel against the Templars causing war. So to correct the saying "Hawke is the most important person in Thedas" it should be Anders so Cassandra should be looking into Anders story rather than Hawke's story.

Am I right?

I am also not ignoring the fact Hawle kills Orsino and Meredith, and gets the lyrium idol.

If Hawke weren't in Kirkwall, the chain of events would have been completely different.

Bartrand's expedition would have either never been funded or never made it to the Primeval Thaig. So Meredith wouldn't have gotten the idol and lost her mind.

The Qunari's coup would have succeeded or caused a lot more damage before being stopped.

Anders would have been captured by the Templars when they used Karl as bait, and he would have been made Tranquil and never blown up the Chantry.

Calling Hawke an "uninfluental" character is a bald faced lie. His/Her presence is the catalyst of every event that happens in Kirkwall, which causes the mages to rebel and changes the world forever.

[hussey 92]

What did Hawke do again?