30 réponses à ce sujet

[sambshep]

 Why does it seem like Kaidan was somewhat reasonable of his distrust during ME2 and throughout ME3, while Ashley on the otherhand seemed to distrust me, in quite the irrational manner, in both games?

I guess a personality difference would explain a lot, but I keep getting the impression that Ash is very nonsensical 

[Apathy1989]

Yeah it ends up making Kaiden very likable in ME3, while Ash is just infuriating.

[Unschuld]

She has a fiery temper, she's a pessimist, and she often jumps to conclusions. Much like most BSN users. Maybe that's why they tend to hate her.

[Ageless Face]

I don't mind it at all. I find both Kaidan's and Ashley's mistrust very understandable.

Problem is not that Ashley doubts Shepard more. The real problem is that she doesn't talk about much aside from that. That is different than Kaidan, that has more to talk about, different topics and all.

[BP93]

Unschuld wrote...

She has a fiery temper, she's a pessimist, and she often jumps to conclusions. Much like most BSN users. Maybe that's why they tend to hate her.

We have a winner!

The only time Ashley is sort of "irrational" is during the beginning of the Mars mission. But you have to remember, she doesn't know what you (the player) know. As everyone learned from ME1, she doesn't trust easily and you basically violated that trust in ME2 by coming back alive and essentially ditching the Alliance.

[Simocrates]

Now don't over react here when I say this but Ashley is a woman and rationality tends to go out the window when you are ex-lovers or the female feels you betrayed them. I say this because women tend to mix emotions and feelings into their thought patterns easier than males who tend to be regarded as more detached.

[CHALET]

Zanza86 wrote...

Now don't over react here when I say this but Ashley is a woman and rationality tends to go out the window when you are ex-lovers or the female feels you betrayed them. I say this because women tend to mix emotions and feelings into their thought patterns easier than males who tend to be regarded as more detached.

*Tackles*

Get down! The FemShep avatars are coming to get you!

[BatmanPWNS]

Winner= Javik's attitude.

[Quething]

CHALET wrote...

Zanza86 wrote...

Now don't over react here when I say this but Ashley is a woman and rationality tends to go out the window when you are ex-lovers or the female feels you betrayed them. I say this because women tend to mix emotions and feelings into their thought patterns easier than males who tend to be regarded as more detached.

*Tackles*

Get down! The FemShep avatars are coming to get you!

Frankly, that sort of sexism is a problem below her paygrade.

No offense.

[krukow]

Honestly, her attitude is semi justified. If my friend joined a terrorist cell (after we had seen some of the terrible things they'd done), I would be very hesitant to trust too.

Plus, she has an arc and by the end actively wishes shed gone with Shep. It's actually good storytelling IMO, and not just another spineless jello character who does whatever Shep says. You actually earn Ash's trust again.

[Fox In The Box]

Zanza86 wrote...

Now don't over react here when I say this but Ashley is a woman and rationality tends to go out the window when you are ex-lovers or the female feels you betrayed them. I say this because women tend to mix emotions and feelings into their thought patterns easier than males who tend to be regarded as more detached.

Ha ha, no.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 12 juin 2012 - 05:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Apathy1989 wrote...

Yeah it ends up making Kaiden very likable in ME3, while Ash is just infuriating.

Same. Doesn't help that I couldn't stand Ashley to begin with and she kept giving me reasons to keep disliking her. Kaidan at least by showing some regret went from heavy dislike to neutral dislike Ash just put my dislike of her into overdrive.

And ugh no it has nothing to do with her being a woman. She's just less trusting and more blunt and rash (and in a sense rude) than Kaidan.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 juin 2012 - 05:40 .

[Little Princess Peach]

BP93 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

She has a fiery temper, she's a pessimist, and she often jumps to conclusions. Much like most BSN users. Maybe that's why they tend to hate her.

We have a winner!

The only time Ashley is sort of "irrational" is during the beginning of the Mars mission. But you have to remember, she doesn't know what you (the player) know. As everyone learned from ME1, she doesn't trust easily and you basically violated that trust in ME2 by coming back alive and essentially ditching the Alliance.

the aliance gave up on shep not the other way round

[nos_astra]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

BP93 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

She has a fiery temper, she's a pessimist, and she often jumps to conclusions. Much like most BSN users. Maybe that's why they tend to hate her.

We have a winner! {smilie}

The only time Ashley is sort of "irrational" is during the beginning of the Mars mission. But you have to remember, she doesn't know what you (the player) know. As everyone learned from ME1, she doesn't trust easily and you basically violated that trust in ME2 by coming back alive and essentially ditching the Alliance.

the aliance gave up on shep not the other way round

I'm sure there is some sort of protocol for ... returning after having been presumed dead.

Joining a shady organisation and almost casually paying a visit to Councillor Anderson while running errants for said organisation is certainly not the way to go. Also Cerberus spread rumours about Shepard's involvement with them, possibly even before Shepard woke up.

From any POV that is not Shepard's or some else's who is involved in the Lazarus Project it looks like Shepard ditched the Alliance.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 juin 2012 - 06:06 .

[Arathyl]

kaidan is a bit too serious i think.... though he is the LI for my shepard.
but i prefer ashley's character more. in ME and ME2 she was like a sister; she didn't care what she wore or how she looked like and her attitude is what made her really cool. but she changed in ME3... don't like how she is all lips and t*** now... glad i chose to save kaidan on virmire...

[Merilsell]

BP93 wrote...
The only time Ashley is sort of "irrational" is during the beginning of the Mars mission. But you have to remember, she doesn't know what you (the player) know. As everyone learned from ME1, she doesn't trust easily and you basically violated that trust in ME2 by coming back alive and essentially ditching the Alliance.

Same is valid for Kaidan too, though. And their reaction is not irrational, but human, imho. 

[Simocrates]

Too many bleeding hearts on this forum.

[scampermax]

Generally I've always preferred Ashley over Kaidan but in ME3 I much preferred Kaidan's arc over Ashley's. It really felt like Kaidan came back around to fully believing in Shepard while Ash never seemed to regain that feeling of bff she had in ME1. There felt like too much distance still lay between her and Shepard. The apparent lack of friendship content for Ashley in comparison to Kaidan didn't help there either.

[Unschuld]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

BP93 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

She has a fiery temper, she's a pessimist, and she often jumps to conclusions. Much like most BSN users. Maybe that's why they tend to hate her.

We have a winner!

The only time Ashley is sort of "irrational" is during the beginning of the Mars mission. But you have to remember, she doesn't know what you (the player) know. As everyone learned from ME1, she doesn't trust easily and you basically violated that trust in ME2 by coming back alive and essentially ditching the Alliance.

the aliance gave up on shep not the other way round

I made that stab mostly just because it fits, but in reality I think Ash's reactions are fully understandable (unlike most local forumites). She just reacts to them in her own "special way". This is just ridiculous though, this comment directly above. How did the Alliance "give up" on Shepard? He/she was, um, DEAD. Pretty sure standard procedure for dead people in most cultures and organizations is to mourn for a bit and move on. Luckily, Cerberus was there to invest billions in a one-off, first of it's kind dead guy revival program.

So the person who died an Alliance hero 2 years ago suddenly turns up not only un-killed, but working for a known terrorist organization opposed by both the Alliance and the Galactic Council. 
Oh, and then there was this whole botched mission where a scientist was supposed to be rescued but instead a Batarian star system was completely wiped out. Gee, I wonder why the Alliance wanted to arrest Shepard and why Ash/Kaidan were distrustful.... 
 

[Ryzaki]

Arrival isn't automatically canon so no that's not a valid reason for distrust in all games. Hell in some games the alliance are the ones who blew up the Star System.

In my canon my Shep didn't do arrival. He didn't trust Hackett further than he could throw him (before ME3 retconned the hell out of that). So the only thing Shep does while working with Cerberus is...help save people. Jeez what a terrible thing to do!

Oh well thankfully you're only forced to deal with one of them and it's only for one mission. Sadly you have to shoot them to avoid the buddy buddy act. You win some you lose some.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[Apathy1989]

Ryzaki wrote...

Arrival isn't automatically canon so no that's not a valid reason for distrust in all games. Hell in some games the alliance are the ones who blew up the Star System.

In my canon my Shep didn't do arrival. He didn't trust Hackett further than he could throw him (before ME3 retconned the hell out of that). So the only thing Shep does while working with Cerberus is...help save people. Jeez what a terrible thing to do!

Oh well thankfully you're only forced to deal with one of them and it's only for one mission. Sadly you have to shoot them to avoid the buddy buddy act. You win some you lose some.

Yeah I wish after the pointed the gun at you and ask if they could rejoin, you could yell and kick their sorry ass off your ship. I hate you have to be buddy-buddy.

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Arrival isn't automatically canon so no that's not a valid reason for distrust in all games. Hell in some games the alliance are the ones who blew up the Star System.

In my canon my Shep didn't do arrival. He didn't trust Hackett further than he could throw him (before ME3 retconned the hell out of that). So the only thing Shep does while working with Cerberus is...help save people. Jeez what a terrible thing to do!

Oh well thankfully you're only forced to deal with one of them and it's only for one mission. Sadly you have to shoot them to avoid the buddy buddy act. You win some you lose some.

I don't think ME3 retconned Hackett. I always took him for what he was, a high ranking military officer. Doesn't make him a good guy, doesn't make him a bad guy.

He does suffer from being part of a video game where he is forced to jump through unexplained logical hoops so he can give a low profile mission in Batarian space to the player character someone who is not even part of the Alliance at this point, is widely recognized and may even be considered a ... personal enemy (hero of Elysium, butcher of Torfan) by the Batarians. Someone who is not exactly known for their stealth and subtlety and solves problems by shooting them in the face (even when paragoning). Totally the person you would want to send on an important covert operation. *cough*

Don't hold it against the character. Arrival has more problems than just Hackett forcing a mission onto someone who's not suitable.

Also, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everyone wants to save people. Shepard, Hackett, Kaidan/Ashley, even Cerberus (in their own, often twisted ways). They just disagree on how to do this. K/A are more on the idealistic side, Cerberus are more on the stupid evil side (for the most part), Hackett and Shepard are somewhere in between.

Just assume that Shepard is not infallible, totally incorruptible and basically flawless, more like a real person and less like the player character in a video game. It's mindblowing really. Suddenly working for Cerberus means running a very high risk to save a few colonies at the cost of losing the trust of the Alliance and making it a lot harder for them to take you seriously than it needed to be. It seems like a bad decision, like Shepard has trouble getting his/her priorities straight. It also means helping Cerberus to salavage Reaper tech (thus enabling them to eventually sabotage your attempts to destroy the Reapers).

I love to think Shepard has sort of screwed up in ME2 and is trying to make good for it in ME3 by going back to the Alliance. Yeah, Terminus colonies love Shepard and are grateful for saving them ... but only to be eaten by Reapers because Shepard also ruined his/her reputation and was unable to sway the Council and the Alliance for months.
I know, it's not exactly what the game says but it's my personal headcanon and makes the ME universe a lot more complex and interesting to me than "we are stuuuuupid, Shepaaaaaaard saaaaaaaaave us".

It also elevates Kaidan's and Ashleys' trust issues from annoying (because I'M SHERPAD AND 2 AWSUM FRO U LOL ) to actually sort of reasonable (possible manipulation/control chip/indoctrination?).

And I appreciate the difference between them: Ashley is blunt and has a fiery temper. Shoot first, think later. Makes sense in many combat situations. Can cause issues outside of them. Kaidan is more diplomatic, so more willing to listen and find some middle ground. Be wary, think before you leap. And this makes perfect sense, too.
It's one of the few times when they are not treated like they're the same person.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[CptData]

I simply love your awesome post, klarabella.

Well written.
One thing: Shepard is "between both extremes" since you can pick his/her attitude how to deal with things. Paragon is idealistic, Renegade is realistic to the point "evil".

[His Name was HYR!!]

I think the VS mistrust of Shepard was stupid bordering on character-assassination. I could understand Horizon, but thinking that you were helping Cerberus on Mars by killing them all was just facepalm-inducing. And if they think that then they must think Hackett is a Cerberus agent too because he gave Shepard that mission.

It's even more stupid if you destroy the Collector Base, since Admiral Hackett indicates that he knows that in Arrival and figures that effectively ends Shepard's relationship with Cerberus. What more proof would one need?

The worst part about it is that this inane "trust issues" thing is that it became 95% of the VS's character in ME3. I think as far as arcs go, both VS regressed.

[arc_gabriel_]

Because in sense you start out with Kaidan so there is more experience with friendship and partnership with him and saving Ashley when she lost her squad she doesn't have that long kinda friendship bond, though she is more serious but getting either back in the 3rd game they both have a same attitude towards Shepard, also it depends if your fem- or male Shepard can change the ways they act to a whole new perspective. O_O Yuuup. Kaidan actually has a crush on the fem-Shepard from the first game, I think it's reversed if you play as male Shepard. >.> not totally 100% on that lol