30 réponses à ce sujet

[Reikilea]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

I think the VS mistrust of Shepard was stupid bordering on character-assassination. I could understand Horizon, but thinking that you were helping Cerberus on Mars by killing them all was just facepalm-inducing. And if they think that then they must think Hackett is a Cerberus agent too because he gave Shepard that mission.

It's even more stupid if you destroy the Collector Base, since Admiral Hackett indicates that he knows that in Arrival and figures that effectively ends Shepard's relationship with Cerberus. What more proof would one need?

The worst part about it is that this inane "trust issues" thing is that it became 95% of the VS's character in ME3. I think as far as arcs go, both VS regressed.

I dont think that VS thought you were helping Cerberus on Mars. No one was expecting Cerberus on Mars. So if you dont know the reason why they are there, you logically try to find explanation for it. And here, standing next to you is the person - who maybe faked his death, then joined forces with Cerberus, got a fancy new ship with their logo on it, was on their payroll for a few months and is quite buddy buddy with TIM. VS initial confusion was reasonable. For me it came across like they asked questions like anyone who doesnt know as much as the player would ask.

So its only logicall that VS demands answers from Shepard as Shepard worked with them. Shep had quite close relation with TIM only few months before. How could anyone (except player) be sure that he really cut ties with Cerberus - what if Shep stayed with them, because they were actually trying to fight reapers/collectors while Alliance did nothing?

If I wasnt player I would have hard time believing Shepard. So basically they never saw your side of the story, they can only go with what someone else said. And as you said VS story arc in ME3 is to question Shepard - they are the other side, people who are unsure about what Shepard did and those who needed to be persuaded to trust Shepard in this. I believe there was millions others who were like them in the galaxy.

And their reaction just fits their character. Kaidan was always reasonable and reserved, Ash was fierce and hotheaded. So yeah they reacted exactly like they should. Ash just takes longer to trust someone again (aliens on the ship). And sicen Kaidan was always left in the back, he just needs time to figure it all on his own.

Modifié par Reikilea, 13 juin 2012 - 04:08 .

[Ryzaki]

klarabella wrote...
I don't think ME3 retconned Hackett. I always took him for what he was, a high ranking military officer. Doesn't make him a good guy, doesn't make him a bad guy.

He does suffer from being part of a video game where he is forced to jump through unexplained logical hoops so he can give a low profile mission in Batarian space to the player character someone who is not even part of the Alliance at this point, is widely recognized and may even be considered a ... personal enemy (hero of Elysium, butcher of Torfan) by the Batarians. Someone who is not exactly known for their stealth and subtlety and solves problems by shooting them in the face (even when paragoning). Totally the person you would want to send on an important covert operation. *cough*

Exactly but he clearly trusts Shepard. Hm...wonder why it's the VS superiors clearly trust Shepard but the VS thinks they all must be idiots and they're the only smart one and clearly Shep's still working with Cerberus! Clearly Shep's not helping!

And Hackett actually makes sense. Plausible deniability. If Shep has to do anything outrageous he can sit back point and say "The traitor with Cerberus did it." while looking clean as a whistle.

Don't hold it against the character. Arrival has more problems than just Hackett forcing a mission onto someone who's not suitable.

I hated Hackett since ME1. Had nothing to do with Arrival. Arrival was just due for the course.

Also, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everyone wants to save people. Shepard, Hackett, Kaidan/Ashley, even Cerberus (in their own, often twisted ways). They just disagree on how to do this. K/A are more on the idealistic side, Cerberus are more on the stupid evil side (for the most part), Hackett and Shepard are somewhere in between.

Just assume that Shepard is not infallible, totally incorruptible and basically flawless, more like a real person and less like the player character in a video game. It's mindblowing really. Suddenly working for Cerberus means running a very high risk to save a few colonies at the cost of losing the trust of the Alliance and making it a lot harder for them to take you seriously than it needed to be. It seems like a bad decision, like Shepard has trouble getting his/her priorities straight. It also means helping Cerberus to salavage Reaper tech (thus enabling them to eventually sabotage your attempts to destroy the Reapers).

I love to think Shepard has sort of screwed up in ME2 and is trying to make good for it in ME3 by going back to the Alliance. Yeah, Terminus colonies love Shepard and are grateful for saving them ... but only to be eaten by Reapers because Shepard also ruined his/her reputation and was unable to sway the Council and the Alliance for months.
I know, it's not exactly what the game says but it's my personal headcanon and makes the ME universe a lot more complex and interesting to me than "we are stuuuuupid, Shepaaaaaaard saaaaaaaaave us".

It also elevates Kaidan's and Ashleys' trust issues from annoying (because I'M SHERPAD AND 2 AWSUM FRO U LOL ) to actually sort of reasonable (possible manipulation/control chip/indoctrination?).

And I appreciate the difference between them: Ashley is blunt and has a fiery temper. Shoot first, think later. Makes sense in many combat situations. Can cause issues outside of them. Kaidan is more diplomatic, so more willing to listen and find some middle ground. Be wary, think before you leap. And this makes perfect sense, too.
It's one of the few times when they are not treated like they're the same person.

Oh god here we go again with the "You don't like the VS because they're mean to Shepard!!!" crowd. "You think Shep's perfect and infalliable." Ugh. No. My favorite Shepard was a jerk, I liked him being a jerk, I liked him being yelled at for being a jerk and his jerkish reaction to it. I don't like my Shep being not only forced to act contrite for something he's not remorseful about. I'd rather he just be called on it. At least then he's IC.

Shepard wouldn't have been able to sway them anyway. Did you play ME3? Did you not see that no one was prepared for the Reapers? Did you not since the council's attitude mostly consisted of "uh...yeah...unless you have some sort of plan to save all of us you get no help. Plus we gotta take care of our own first. Sorry bbl." Shepard turning himself over to the alliance Did. Not. Help. The only thing it might've averted was a war between the Batarians and Humanity leading to the Reapers steamrolling over both and no before anyone says that would've mean the Reapers won no it doesn't. It was a galaxy wide war.

Also without Cerberus "salvaging" of Reaper tech or no Shepard never would've been able to defeat the Collectors and Earth would've been toast. (Hi there seeker swarms that we no longer have any defense against!).

Also while you may like it (and no I don't want to take away your choice to be friends with the VS and ask for forgiveness) all I wanted was the ability not to do that. I wanted to be able to be hostile, to not attempt to explain, to be able to get them as WA without Shep playing the buddy routine. That's all I wanted. As it is the only way to avoid being friends with them is to listen to Shep still try to justify himself to them (especially facepalm worthy as they could've visited him if they wanted and clearly they didn't) finally get fed up and do something similar to a Whatever I'm done and then I have to COMPLETELY ignore them until the Coup where I shoot them and they give a one liner while Shep sounds sorry about shooting someone who held a gun to his face. Bleh. (I can't even say my Shep anymore. My Shep certainly is nowhere to be found in ME3). Meanwhile this Shep blasts Wrex in the face without batting an eyelid.

And no I'm still not seeing as reasonable because they ignore everyone else's actions. Particularly those of their superiors. It's also very facepalm worthy. If you think someone's working with Cerberus why put them on their guard by constantly questioning them about it? There's this thing called observation and getting close to the enemy. Their complete lack of subtly is sad while Ashley doesn't surprise me (she was a grunt for a reason) with Kaidan it's a bit odd. Kaidan at least regains it as for Ashley I never really liked her, ME2 and ME3 just put it into overdrive thankfully there's Virmire so one problem solved.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 05:14 .

[nos_astra]

Ryzaki wrote...
Also without Cerberus "salvaging" of Reaper tech or no Shepard never would've been able to defeat the Collectors and Earth would've been toast. (Hi there seeker swarms that we no longer have any defense against!).

There are two Collector ships and one base. Not much of a threat. One is defeated by Shepard who btw. engages their entire base with one upgraded state-of-the-art frigate and 12 random badasses. The other one is destroyed by Vega's unit (and I use the term unit very losely for lack of a more appropriate military term).

Yeah, this plot is kind of silly (and makes Shepard look like a moron) but sadly it's the plot of ME2. I don't know how to headcanon this away other than saying Shepard is being manipulated and losing sight of what is important when Cerberus fed them false information concerning the Alliance (who was not exactly doing nothing but merely not doing what Ceberus thought was best while also not doing what I would have said was best) dangled the colonists-in-need-of-a-savior in front of them like a carrot on a stick to appeal to their massive ego ... or something like that.



Edit: Some thoughts.

Shepard has to deal with the consequences of his/her actions. A former squadmate being wary of them is to be expected and a reasonable reaction. They end up on Shepard's ship entirely by accident and they follow Shepard because they feel they must or because they have no choice since Hackett gave Shepard command of the Normandy and they are now under orders to go to Mars. All of this happened under very unusual circumstances and very quickly. It's not even clear what the logic behind this (Ashley being of equal rank, Kaidan of superior rank).

My wild guess is because the player expects to be in charge of the Normandy.

They could have given command to K/A. (Haha, blasphemy!) I almost got whiplash when I saw the Alliance going from "we need to keep Shepard under arrest" to "we trust Shepard to command the Normandy". K/A end up in hospital a few days later anyway and Shepard could have taken over from then. (Oh, the amount of butthurt and nerdrage on BSN would have been delicious.)

Modifié par klarabella, 13 juin 2012 - 06:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Again them being wary of Shepard is something IDGAF about. What's my issue is how Shep's forced to react to them. That's my problem. (As well as the way they express that wariness which is very stupid and egotistic particularly in Ashley's case but whatever). The forced buddy buddy act and I care about your feels makes me gag. At least with Garrus and Tali I can have them killed all in the SM (or in Tali's case avoid recruiting her entirely) and avoid it. I don't have a 50% chance of having one of them in my ME3 game like it or not.

As for Kaidan/Ashley command the Normandy to me that wouldn't make much sense with everything Hackett says. Particularly not with Ashley. The Normandy was originally supposed to be under Hacketts command and EDI and Joker are far far more inclined to listen to Shepard. Joker lost a lot of respect for the VS and EDI most likely wouldn't be inclined to trust them over Shep whom she knows. Add in Shep's charisma and even if the VS had been put in charge it wouldn't have taken long at all for there to have been problems with people opting to follow Shep's orders instead).

Who says Vega's unit defeated the Collectors? (god I hate comic book tie in nonsense.)

Also Seeker Swarms =! Collectors and those random badasses needed to have a cure made (A cure that took at least a few days to make and had one of the most brilliant Salarian scientists working on it) the chances of the same cure being made quickly enough to help Earth after they're bumrushed is highly...unlikely. Vega lost his entire squad fighting the Collectors.

And the plot looking silly and making Shep look like a moron is really YMMV. Of course Shepard trying to save colonists means he/she is being egotistic. *rubs temples* Clearly. How dare Shepard try to find leads against the threat the alliance and council are content to ignore. To each their own I suppose. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 juin 2012 - 09:23 .

[OchreJelly]

I think they actually have about the same lines dont they? Raphael Sbarge and Kimberly Brooks have voices that create different "moods" for lack of a better description.

I think that might color the perception of how the characters behave a little...

Modifié par OchreJelly, 13 juin 2012 - 11:10 .

[EricHVela]

OchreJelly wrote...

I think they actually have about the same lines dont they? Raphael Sbarge and Kimberly Brooks have voices that create different "moods" for lack of a better description.

I think that might color the perception of how the characters behave a little...

Certain lines, yes. However, they have small tweaks during much of the common dialog as well. Change a few words and the whole thing carries different weight.

Then, there are the many, many uncommon lines. So no. They don't actually have about the same lines.

IMHO, it's not easy to like someone with two cups of fiery temper and a cup of slow to trust mixed with it. Such a person lashes out a lot especially if they have any small reason to do it such as Cerberus ties or simply being an alien. (It's obvious that Ash avoids the crew for the most part in ME3. Kaidan at least hangs with the other Humans.)

Such a relationship takes work. In real life, the rewards of creating a bond despite that can easily be worth it. IMHO in ME3, it's not, sadly.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 14 juin 2012 - 06:18 .