330 réponses à ce sujet

[OMTING52601]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

The bigger question is can a work produced by commitee and a large number of people (i.e mass effect 3) be true art?

That's a weighted question though, isn't it? Art, by design of the human condition, is subjective. I don't think Andy Warhol was some kind of god among men. I mean, to me, it's a can of soup, not some kind of commentary on society as a whole. But that's my opinion. Just like I don't think Pollack was awesomesauce, either. But Frank Frazetta? I think all of his stuff is amazing art. 

To your question of art, by committee, well, would you consider a book written by multiple authors or an anthology created around a central theme to be non-art? Movies aren't exactly made by committee, IMO, but there is, usually, more than one master, as it were.

I think art can be all sorts of things, if the intent behind a things creation is artistic in nature. However, I don't think that having the label 'art' suddenly means that no other labels or categorizations apply. I'd say, for the most part, the art the public is exposed to is commercial art - art created for commerce. That doesn't make it less 'art', but it does make it, IMO, subject to the same market forces applied to any commercial enterprise. FWIW, YMMV.

[Quething]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Huh? My comment was that artists that are in it for the art alone don't generally see much profit while they are alive. I didn't say an artist can't make money from their work.

Like seriously, if you made something you put a lot of artistic thought into and you made money, congratulations! That's what I do - yeah, I'm a freelance writer. I sell works of fiction to publishers who then give me royalties that I then use to pay bills. And as such, I'm totally a business person to, so I have an above average grasp of what my target audience is interested in buying, because I absolutely want to continue making money writing books.

I also don't, as a rule, do things to alienate my audience, FWIW. Since I'm making art, sure, but it's a product, really, first. Ticking off buyers doesn't equal a fruitful career, IME.

Sorry if you misinterpreted my post. It wasn't intended to upset anyone.

Anyway, closer to topic, so we know Telfer, Henrickson, Sbarge, and Brooks have come back to record more lines. Has anyone else been confirmed?

I like this human.

Last I heard, we have no outright confirmation on Meer, but he did make a tweet that all but confirmed it. Not a peep from Hale, though.

[Star fury]

Very interesting line. I didn't know that.

Would you say you love voice acting for video games more than TV?

“Definitely not. It’s a lot more labour intensive. It’s the most labour
intensive, it pays the least. The only good thing about it, and the best
thing about it is the fans. They’re way more passionate, totally into
it, totally supportive, they know what you’re into, they care.

[Tirranek]

I'm always a little confused when the same news said by a different person is considered new info, or in other words  another reason to drop facepalm gifs, quote 'artistic integrity' ironically like it's actually clever, and indulge in an obsession of fecal metaphors. It's almost like people enjoy it now.

[ArtGerhardt]

Star fury wrote...

Very interesting line. I didn't know that.

Would you say you love voice acting for video games more than TV?

“Definitely not. It’s a lot more labour intensive. It’s the most labour
intensive, it pays the least. The only good thing about it, and the best
thing about it is the fans. They’re way more passionate, totally into
it, totally supportive, they know what you’re into, they care.

I have a friend who moved to cali to pursue acting. He's told me quite a few times that sometimes voice acting can be harder. Something about being on-set and seeing the enviroment you'll be scene in eventually helps him emote the right feelings in his dialoge. He also said you get paid diddly unless you're in the top 10 ranks of voice actors.

[OMTING52601]

Quething wrote...

Last I heard, we have no outright confirmation on Meer, but he did make a tweet that all but confirmed it. Not a peep from Hale, though.

Thanks

LOL, all but, huh? I wonder why either Meer or Hale would be hush hush about laying new tracks. I'm not exactly keen to speculate, but I can't be the only person who thinks one of two possible outcomes on that. Either they aren't doing any further dialogue or they've been told to keep zipped so that BW doesn't have to worry about any inadvertant leakage.

And neither of them probably want a deluge of fan tweets hen pecking them for deets.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

OMTING52601 wrote...

Quething wrote...

Last I heard, we have no outright confirmation on Meer, but he did make a tweet that all but confirmed it. Not a peep from Hale, though.

Thanks

LOL, all but, huh? I wonder why either Meer or Hale would be hush hush about laying new tracks. I'm not exactly keen to speculate, but I can't be the only person who thinks one of two possible outcomes on that. Either they aren't doing any further dialogue or they've been told to keep zipped so that BW doesn't have to worry about any inadvertant leakage.

And neither of them probably want a deluge of fan tweets hen pecking them for deets.

I am pretty sure he did a recent interview where he said he was recording more lines, he even said that in the interview that came out a few weeks after release.

Edit: here http://www.shacknews...of-male-shepard

"I have had a couple of DLC recording sessions thus far - one was done
while I was in England for the most recent London Improvathon. Luckily, I
did my recording BEFORE I stayed awake performing for 50 straight
hours... Shepard might have sounded more like a Vorcha."

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 13 juin 2012 - 12:13 .

[Taboo]

Meer has been in for two sessions. Two.

All focus has shifted to the EC until it is finished. Everything that occurs is for the EC.

This isn't cheap regardless of who's doing it, as I'm sure Bioware is taking care of quite a few things. If people actually sat back and thought about the issue, they'd realize that this is going to cost a great deal of money.

I know people who work at Pixar. If the price for animating something in a game is even a fraction of what it cost for Pixar for a few seconds, I'd imagine we'd arrive at a number that would make quite a few people sweat.

Couple that in with people like Miss Helfer and things start to get even more expensive. Throw in four or five months of paid wages to employees and you get more.

Bioware isn't charging for it either and anything they make up in MP is still a loss. Making back money is still considered a loss. What you want is a surplus, and a goal.

They won't cover it.

[20x6]

The Angry One wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Knottedredloc wrote...

Quote "The sessions I’ve had so far have been really simple, and Bioware’s not changing the ending, but it’s explaining and justifying it more.” - Kimberly Brooks

And you people expect good things from this? I'm actually going to be sick.

Cool interview otherwise though. And I actually had no idea what Kimberly looked like before this.

Justify... yeah.
You can justify the existence of monkey feces smeared over a computer screen all you want. It's still feces.

Feces.... with....

artistic integrity!

[Reorte]

Oh great. Makes it harder to treat the FAQ as badly worded or out-of-date.

[TMA LIVE]

BigglesFlysAgain wrote...

Artists who were successful during their lives tended to paint things that the Middle and upper classes of their time would have liked, I.e if there was a trend for pictures of trees, and you continue to paint ships becuase they inspire you the most, few people will spend money on your paintings becuase its not what they are looking for, though by the time you die trends may have changed and suddenly your masterful ships are worth millions, not that you will get a penny.

Or maybe because blogs and TV didn't exist, and the only way to network or show your work, was to pay for your work to be displayed, or have people come to your house, with only the city population to know about it, unless word of mouth or letters did a good job advertizing you throughout the country.

It does depend on the film, but I think that games like mass effect have more people making decisions than a typical film might though, If Casey Hudson and Mr Gamble wrote every part of the story and or were in charge of every decision, down to the level of shine on Mirandas boobs (maybe they really are? lol) with the rest of the studio basically working to their specifications with no discussion allowed or your fired, then it would be closer to a film.


I think that the fact games are an interactive experience and the player does not always experience, but does means the "vision" of the people in charge is diluted more, so your not really taking in everything they intended.

Why would Casey need to be involved with everything in order for ME to be considered art? You never considered art made by artists? Art made for love and profit?

What separates art from average product is that it's creatively personal. That it's actually trying to do more, and create a personal experience. Not everything has to be just and only just what the artist wants, but what the artist or artists turn it into to make a profit, while still trying to keep it personal and creative.

And considering the end scene involves a granddad and his grandson star gazing, because Casey wanted it after getting a letter from a fan, then yeah, I do consider ME art. I might not call it great art, but there is it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 13 juin 2012 - 12:30 .

[Necrotron]

sistersafetypin wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

I tend to think of her more as Oracle's voice in the Batman games.

Me too, but she's also so Ash

Really, I always thought of her as Lanaya from Dragon Age: Origins.

[Necrotron]

This interview basically tells us that we can expect nothing good, but everything we dreaded would happen when the extended cut was announced.

I keep getting my hopes up, but the evidence keeps pointing to the fact that I should not.

[OMTING52601]

Thanks for the link, BigglesFlysAgain

Taboo-XX wrote...

This isn't cheap regardless of who's doing it...

Bioware isn't charging for it either and anything they make up in MP is still a loss. Making back money is still considered a loss. What you want is a surplus, and a goal.

They won't cover it.

You're right about that, making back just what you spent is not called profit. BW didn't have to do an EC, though. Just like they didn't have to end the game the way they did. It's all choices - and I'm not implying any kind of morality or +/- connotation to anything. It is what it is.

So the only one who hasn't said anything yet is Hale. Well, hopefully she'll say something, maybe closer to EC release. What can I say, I like FemShep - an not just cause I'm a girl, LOL!

[Taboo]

HALE ISN'T THE ONLY ONE.

WHERE IS MISS STRAHOVSKI BIOWARE?

[Quething]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I know people who work at Pixar. If the price for animating something in a game is even a fraction of what it cost for Pixar for a few seconds, I'd imagine we'd arrive at a number that would make quite a few people sweat.

It isn't.

The process for creating an engine-rendered scene in a game compared to a frame from a fixed camera in a Maya-rendered environment (or whatever Pixar uses) is completely different from the ground up.

A pre-rendered cutscene is closer in scope and similar in process, but is actually often an inferior choice in storytelling, particularly in a game like ME where the actors available in a given scene are wildly variable across different playthroughs and, in Shepard's case, completely unpredictable in appearance. It also reduces the issue of cutscene quality and detail being jarringly inconsistent with ingame quality and detail - something which can also be done by modifying a recording of an engine-rendered cutscene into a pre-render, a common shortcut not available to Pixar. (Though I haven't seen much that looks like it was done that way in the ME series, it does remain an option.)

[Taboo]

And there it is. I learned something today.

Anyway, it still isn't cheap. Hudson stated that the three month development for LotSB cost millions of dollars.

I'd imagine four or five months would also be pretty expensive.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

TMA LIVE wrote...


Or maybe because blogs and TV didn't exist, and the only way to network or show your work, was to pay for your work to be displayed, or have people come to your house, with only the city population to know about it, unless word of mouth or letters did a good job advertizing you throughout the country.

The history of art and its economics is more complicated than either of our poor examples, so its really not worth going into, given that we are both generalising a lot and not really being specific about the time period, lol I am not trying to brush your argument aside, I just think we are barking up the wrong tree

Why would Casey need to be involved with everything in order for ME to be considered art? You never considered art made by artists? Art made for love and profit?

I never said games have to be like that to be considered art, though I suppose you could come to that conclusion, I did not word it so well. Though I am not sure about the last part

What separates art from average product is that it's creatively personal. That it's actually trying to do more, and create a personal experience. Not everything has to be just and only just what the artist wants, but what the artist or artists turn it into to make a profit, while still trying to keep it personal and creative.

I see what you mean, that there would be a diference between a by the numbers shooter, while games like ME do a bit more than guns and violence needed to sell a game. They do usualy at least try to be better than the minimum, but I think a lot of people believe they have had to compromise to much.

And considering the end scene involves a granddad and his grandson star gazing, because Casey wanted it after getting a letter from a fan, then yeah, I do consider ME art. I might not call it great art, but there is it.

Well thats evidence that they take fan feedback into account when making the game, but not really evidence they are artists

I would make the distinction that the people at bioware are artists in the sense that they are skilled at what they do, and can produce imagery well, but that does not mean what they produce is very deep or interesting, You could be very skilled at painting garden gnomes and call yourself a gnome artist, and the finish on the paint would be to a high standard, and the colours neat, but it would not be an interesting or emotive piece.

Modifié par BigglesFlysAgain, 13 juin 2012 - 12:56 .

[Quething]

Taboo-XX wrote...

And there it is. I learned something today.

Anyway, it still isn't cheap. Hudson stated that the three month development for LotSB cost millions of dollars.

I'd imagine four or five months would also be pretty expensive.

Oh, yeah, they're definitely taking a serious hit on this. The VA talent alone is already prohibitive and that's one of the smaller expenses in the long run, unless you're running around hiring people like Martin Sheen and Patrick Stewart.

The balancing act BioWare has to perform here, though, is "how much money do we lose on future games if the EC doesn't bring back customers who wrote us off after ME3's ending?" That's the number that decides whether the EC is money well spent. If the EC costs as much to make as Mass Effect 3 itself, but it gets 50% of their customer base to buy three more games with full DLC instead of no more games, it's still a worthwhile investment.

Ironically, if they spend too little and end up creating a product that doesn't bring back enough customers, they could lose more money than if they'd spent more on the EC.

Of course money's not the only factor in the effectiveness of the EC, by a long shot; above all else, it has to demonstrate that they understand what they did wrong and plan to not do that again in the future, and that's very close to completely independent of money spent one way or the other. It's also something that they've already shown to be pretty damn unlikely.... as most recently (though not remotely most strongly) evidenced by this interview.

Modifié par Quething, 13 juin 2012 - 02:02 .

[Taboo]

They won't try this again. Ever. Once is enough for people. Hudson's credibility is tainted with the fanbase. Anything he says will be held in the lowest regard. Anything Walters says will be even worse.

They have one shot to fix this and if they don't, they're going to have some serious issues. They wouldn't be doing anything unless they thought it wasn't worth it. It is a concession and a "Gamble" at the same time.

[OMTING52601]

Quething wrote...

Oh, yeah, they're definitely taking a serious hit on this. The VA talent alone is already prohibitive and that's one of the smaller expenses in the long run, unless you're running around hiring people like Martin Sheen and Patrick Stewart.

The balancing act BioWare has to perform here, though, is "how much money do we lose on future games if the EC doesn't bring back customers who wrote us off after ME3's ending?" That's the number that decides whether the EC is money well spent. If the EC costs as much to make as Mass Effect 3 itself, but it gets 50% of their customer base to buy three more games with full DLC instead of no more games, it's still a worthwhile investment.

Ironically, if they spend too little and end up creating a product that doesn't bring back enough customers, they could lose more money than if they'd spent more on the EC.

Of course money's not the only factor in the effectiveness of the EC, by a long shot; above all else, it has to demonstrate that they understand what they did wrong and plan to not do that again in the future, and that's very close to completely independent of money spent one way or the other. It's also something that they've already shown to be pretty damn unlikely.... as most recently (though not remotely most strongly) evidenced by this interview.

And that's the crux of it. It's also the strongest argument - where no words actually need to be spoken - rebutting the often tossed-about 'vocal minority' claim.

BW is spending considerable monies developing this EC, which they wouldn't be doing if the future profits of the company weren't potentially, and significantly, on the line(and future measurable profits wouldn't be on the line if only a tiny portion of the audience was dissatisfied with ME 3). If the EC doesn't bring back the buyers, it'll be money fruitlessly spent and I have to agree with you, Quething. Everything BW has claimed about the EC makes me shake my head as to why they'd even bother spending the money in the first place, since their assertions as to what the EC will and won't be don't come even close to what I've seen the players say they want. FWIW, YMMV, IMO.

Taboo, you're last post reminded me. Have any of the possible LI's returned? I'll admit my ignorance stems from NOT spending any time on Twitter at all, LOL.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Bioware did you not read any of the forums for the past three months? We are listening, MY ASS!

[DevilBeast]

Sublyminal wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Nothing she says is any different from the FAQ statement back in April. Read it again.

Taboo I know that you want to believe in bioware and all but, its really time to stop being the eternal optimist. Bioware is a shell of what it used to be. No matter how many sprinkles you throw on a turd, it will always be a turd.

But still.... It´s a turd.. With sprinkles. I mean, sprinkles are ehmm... nice and... sprinkly?? Right... Right??

[Ihatebadgames]

A week or so ago BW was claiming all the teams were working on multiplayer.I remember thinking what about SP,the patchs that don't fix the bugs?What about the EC?
Nothing I have heard makes me think they listen.

[Taboo]

Ihatebadgames wrote...

A week or so ago BW was claiming all the teams were working on multiplayer.I remember thinking what about SP,the patchs that don't fix the bugs?What about the EC?
Nothing I have heard makes me think they listen.

The SP and MP are seperate studios.

In seperate cities.