553 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that TIM is control Shepard i the end of the game with indoctriantion means the writerd didn't throw it out, they just changed it slightly form Harginber controling Shepard with indoctriantion to TIM.

Sorry, nope. Weekes said that Indoctrinated Shepard was left out due to mechanics, then is not there. And Shep was previously controled by Project Overlord... that is also a possibility.

[jijeebo]

ZOMG guys!

If Indoctrination Theory is actually the Indoctrination FanFiction then think about it...

It becomes the IFF, just like the reaper one that's been on the Normandy since ME2.


Shepard is obviously indoctrinated, how could I be so blind?

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Yes, it's a literary interpretation/theory on an existing work of fiction...
Which is not what fan fiction is...

Yes it is, your creating your own fictional story inside the already existing fictional universe.

TIM controling SHEPARD with indoctriantion makes it not a fanfic.

[llbountyhunter]

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

That's like saying every female friend you have is your girlfriend.

IT doesnt completly fit the defention of fanfiction

What?

What the hell are you talking about?

Just because it was a theory made by fans does not mean its fanfic

The same way having friends that are girls doesnt make them your girlfriends.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 15 juin 2012 - 05:57 .

[zambot]

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

I cannot believe this thread devolved into arguing what constitutes a scientific theory. IT is a literary theory much closer to trying to discern the meaning of a Steinbeck novel than understanding quantum mechanics.

It's still is a theory. Theory is not exclucive to science nor is the used of the scientific method.

At the risk of continuing this asinine debate comparing IT to things like Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, I'll bite.  After making a hypothesis, as part of the scientific method, one must make a prediction then test it.  What are the top...say...3 predictions IT makes that we can test?

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Yes, it's a literary interpretation/theory on an existing work of fiction...
Which is not what fan fiction is...

Yes it is, your creating your own fictional story inside the already existing fictional universe.

TIM controling SHEPARD with indoctriantion makes it not a fanfic.

You're asumming that is a fact.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that TIM is control Shepard i the end of the game with indoctriantion means the writerd didn't throw it out, they just changed it slightly form Harginber controling Shepard with indoctriantion to TIM.

Sorry, nope. Weekes said that Indoctrinated Shepard was left out due to mechanics, then is not there. And Shep was previously controled by Project Overlord... that is also a possibility.

Weeks said Harbinger controling Shepard with indoctriantion was cut out because of gamepley michanics problems. He never said the storry concept was thrown out. That just means it was change from a gameplay element to a story element.
That means TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion sticks.

[mauro2222]

llbountyhunter wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

That's like saying every female friend you have is your girlfriend.

IT doesnt completly fit the defention of fanfiction

What?

What the hell are you talking about?

Just because it was a theory made by fans does not mean its fanfic

The same way having friends that are girls doesnt make them your girlfriends.

What the...

That analogy doesn't work there

Theory or not it's still fanfiction, you're building your own ending using the already existing univers

[dreman9999]

zambot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

I cannot believe this thread devolved into arguing what constitutes a scientific theory. IT is a literary theory much closer to trying to discern the meaning of a Steinbeck novel than understanding quantum mechanics.

It's still is a theory. Theory is not exclucive to science nor is the used of the scientific method.

At the risk of continuing this asinine debate comparing IT to things like Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, I'll bite.  After making a hypothesis, as part of the scientific method, one must make a prediction then test it.  What are the top...say...3 predictions IT makes that we can test?

Ironicly, the reason why theories are prolong as theoies is because the can nor havethe means to be tested.
 That'S why evolution and quantum theory are still theories.

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact that TIM is control Shepard i the end of the game with indoctriantion means the writerd didn't throw it out, they just changed it slightly form Harginber controling Shepard with indoctriantion to TIM.

Sorry, nope. Weekes said that Indoctrinated Shepard was left out due to mechanics, then is not there. And Shep was previously controled by Project Overlord... that is also a possibility.

Weeks said Harbinger controling Shepard with indoctriantion was cut out because of gamepley michanics problems. He never said the storry concept was thrown out. That just means it was change from a gameplay element to a story element.
That means TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion sticks.

You are asumming a lot there. Being left out due to gameplay mechanics doesn't mean "cinematic mode"...

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Look up the defenition of a theory.

I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.

How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?

And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Yes, it's a literary interpretation/theory on an existing work of fiction...
Which is not what fan fiction is...

Yes it is, your creating your own fictional story inside the already existing fictional universe.

TIM controling SHEPARD with indoctriantion makes it not a fanfic.

You're asumming that is a fact.

With every symtom of indoctriantion going on, it is a fact.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 06:03 .

[Bill Casey]

mauro2222 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Yes, it's a literary interpretation/theory on an existing work of fiction...
Which is not what fan fiction is...

Yes it is, your creating your own fictional story inside the already existing fictional universe.

No we are not...
We are interpreting an existing story...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 juin 2012 - 06:03 .

[dreman9999]

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Look up the defenition of a theory.

I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.

How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?

And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard

..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.

[zambot]

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

I cannot believe this thread devolved into arguing what constitutes a scientific theory. IT is a literary theory much closer to trying to discern the meaning of a Steinbeck novel than understanding quantum mechanics.

It's still is a theory. Theory is not exclucive to science nor is the used of the scientific method.

At the risk of continuing this asinine debate comparing IT to things like Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, I'll bite.  After making a hypothesis, as part of the scientific method, one must make a prediction then test it.  What are the top...say...3 predictions IT makes that we can test?

Ironicly, the reason why theories are prolong as theoies is because the can nor havethe means to be tested.
 That'S why evolution and quantum theory are still theories.

Except both the theory of evolution and quantum mechanics have made dozens if not hundreds of predictions that have been experimentally verified.  To my knowledge, IT has made, zero.  Which means it's still in the hypothesis stage.

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.

Again my friend, that is not a fact. It may be in your head, or aplying the theory to the ending, but not in the canon story.

Modifié par mauro2222, 15 juin 2012 - 06:05 .

[PreciousIsland]

The indoctrination theory is nothing more than fanfiction.
I dunno about you, but I personally cant stand fanfic, I just dont like it. Now, some of you are probably asking "well, why do you support IT??"
well, thats because I dont view IT as fanfiction. Rather than vewing IT as a segment that arose from some very devoted fans- I view it a puzzle set forth by bioware in which, we (the average player) piece together, and complete the image.
Also IT was created with the use of the scientific method, which makes it a theory- not fanfic.

If IT is true then bioware sold me an incomplete game.
this one is true, however this shouldnt be regarded as a bad thing, nor should many people be particularly suprised by this. after all, when has ANY mass effect game been sold complete? without the need for any DLC?

dont forget bioware also asked EA for 3 extra months and EA said "no".... perhaps IT was used to buy more time?

and dont worry, I know that there is a difference between side story dlc, and dlc that is a critical part of the story (although.... from the ashes...), but these lines are being blurred more every day by gaming companies.

http://www.cinemable...6-99-40917.html 

http://www.gamespot....essions-6234008  

http://www.eurogamer...nding-explained 

as we can see, If IT is true, then bioware is far from bieng the first company to separate the ending of a game. at least they didnt charge us $6.99!!! 


IT boils down to a "It was all a dream".
close, but not quite. IT is more akin to "battle within the mind" in which the character (or in this case, the player as well) engage a enemy within the character mind, and your conclusion has real world results.

So what happens after IT? do you just get up and go to the citadel all over again, and finally beat the reapers for real this time?
possibly. however, we cant accuratly answer this question because we just dont know, IT only talks about what happens in me3, not whats going to happen next. 

however  it is possibe that IT can be a way to actually defeat the repears. (my personal speculation at this point)

in my eyes I view IT as a huge, epic mental boss battle with harbinger. perhaps, after choosing detroy, harbinger is destroyed in the real-world, or maybe even the reaper fleets shields are taken down. (similar to how killing saren disabled sovereign in me1), this then allows the alliance fleet to have fair odds in destroying the reapers and a chance for your war-assets and choices to shine.


EDIT #1
the prothean VI does not detect shepards indoctrination.
argument 1. shepards is not indoctrinated at this point. the reapers are chipping away at his resistence here. and remember, the whole point of IT is to try to get shepard indoctrinated in the first place.

argument 2. (works best with sarcasm...sorry) well, of course, its common knowladge that the protheans had perfect indoctrination scanners, right? I mean its not like they themselfs were undermined by sleeper agents right?......oh wait.


EDIT#2
Arrival is not cannon.
well, as it turns out, that the events of arrival do seem to be canonical. take a look at this mass effect comic introducing Vega.
 
Now we can fairly certain that whatever happened on that asteroid is in fact, cannon.


these arent all the arguments agaisnt IT, just the ones that are incorrect and I see most often.
there are also some legitamit counter arguments to IT- this theory, just like any other theory, is not without problems. 

also if you feel I made a flawed argument, need to add more arguments, or simply have a question about IT in general, feel free to point it out.

one more thing.... I also my own opinion on when the indoctrination starts, you can check that out on my sig.
[/quote]


1.  Fanfiction:  The scientific method does not work when applied to the subject matter of literary criticism.  It is a tool for the investigation of inquiries related to the natural sciences (chemistry, biology, physics, etc.).  Even a logical positivist, who would say that the only legitimate form of inquiry is the scientific method of the natural sciences, would find literary criticism via the scientific method absurd and impossible.

2.  Incomplete game:  You didn't really argue against the fact that Bioware would be selling the public an incomplete game even if they included some DLC ending expansion later.  The only pro-Bioware point you brought up was a vague allusion to the fact that other companies are guilty of similar crimes.

3.  It was all a dream:  It does sort of boil down to that.  Even if it was a battle all in the mind, Dead Space 2 did the same thing and it was still stupid.  The thing about it is, if IT is true, it was written so poorly, having seen what we have seen of the final game, that it couldn't possibly be a better ending than what already exists.  It would be equally dumb and confused (because what happens in the "dream" that we have seen so far could serve no dramatic purpose) as the existing ending but just longer.

4.  So what then?:  Either this question has to be answered, "Well, the actual ending," which leads to the question, "Then why this IT garbage at all?" or the answer is something like what you said in which case the game would have been shipped without an ending that had been secret all along which was released further down the road (since it had to be developed after the game's release?).  What company would do this?  Why?  To antagonize their customers deliberately?  EA sure made a lot of people mad with all the horrible things they did, but this was deemed acceptable collateral damage, at least before the game shipped (probably still is), judging from their contemptuous tone).  They do what they do in order to "satisfy" more customers to sell more games and DLC.

This secret ending would prove to be like the end of Dead Space 2 only dumber because it actually effects something in reality.  So Shepard would defeat the Reapers with conventional firearms in his own mind.  If such a possibility existed, why would the Reapers not simply shoot him with a laser in the real world instead of snuggling up to him to be killed telepathically?  Do you see how stupid that idea would be?

Edit #1:

Protehan VI:  I don't know about you, but this really, strongly suggests that the kid in his dreams is not the result of Reaper indoctrination.  I mean, IT people are going to the ends of the earth to say that there are all these meticulously placed, obscure and seemingly insignificant clues to support what they are saying, that it is this well-crafted puzzle Bioware lays out for them, and then they have this VI that can detect Leng's (worst...  character... ever...) indoctrination just say, "This guy isn't indoctrinated,"  referring to Shepard, well into the game?  I mean why would it detect Leng's indoctrination but not Shepard's?

Even IT fanatics can't have it both ways.  This VI shoots to hell half of the "evidence" for IT.  You are left with a really crappy ending and no foreshadowing for indoctrination.  Come on.  Like wake up.  The story is just stupid.  IT being true would be even dumber.  It was never planned before and if they incorporate it into the EC (which I highly doubt, 99.5% sure they wouldn't, but anything is possible) it will be the worst sort of fan service apology.  

One way or another, I won't be pre-ordering another ME game, and I won't buy one period unless it receives a positive review from SA's Dennis Farrell, the only game reviewer whose opinion is worth a damn in my experience.

Modifié par PreciousIsland, 15 juin 2012 - 06:11 .

[dreman9999]

zambot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

I cannot believe this thread devolved into arguing what constitutes a scientific theory. IT is a literary theory much closer to trying to discern the meaning of a Steinbeck novel than understanding quantum mechanics.

It's still is a theory. Theory is not exclucive to science nor is the used of the scientific method.

At the risk of continuing this asinine debate comparing IT to things like Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, I'll bite.  After making a hypothesis, as part of the scientific method, one must make a prediction then test it.  What are the top...say...3 predictions IT makes that we can test?

Ironicly, the reason why theories are prolong as theoies is because the can nor havethe means to be tested.
 That'S why evolution and quantum theory are still theories.

Except both the theory of evolution and quantum mechanics have made dozens if not hundreds of predictions that have been experimentally verified.  To my knowledge, IT has made, zero.  Which means it's still in the hypothesis stage.

Yes, It does.
Theirs Shepard's eye change.
The fact Shepard lives in the destory ending when he is told he'll die.
TIM control Shepard with indoctriantion.
There's a whole documatry about this.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Look up the defenition of a theory.

I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.

How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?

And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard

..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.

I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious

[llbountyhunter]

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

That's like saying every female friend you have is your girlfriend.

IT doesnt completly fit the defention of fanfiction

What?

What the hell are you talking about?

Just because it was a theory made by fans does not mean its fanfic

The same way having friends that are girls doesnt make them your girlfriends.

What the...

That analogy doesn't work there

Theory or not it's still fanfiction, you're building your own ending using the already existing univers

No were not.... maybe you dontunderstand IT.

[zambot]

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

zambot wrote...

I cannot believe this thread devolved into arguing what constitutes a scientific theory. IT is a literary theory much closer to trying to discern the meaning of a Steinbeck novel than understanding quantum mechanics.

It's still is a theory. Theory is not exclucive to science nor is the used of the scientific method.

At the risk of continuing this asinine debate comparing IT to things like Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, I'll bite.  After making a hypothesis, as part of the scientific method, one must make a prediction then test it.  What are the top...say...3 predictions IT makes that we can test?

Ironicly, the reason why theories are prolong as theoies is because the can nor havethe means to be tested.
 That'S why evolution and quantum theory are still theories.

Except both the theory of evolution and quantum mechanics have made dozens if not hundreds of predictions that have been experimentally verified.  To my knowledge, IT has made, zero.  Which means it's still in the hypothesis stage.

Yes, It does.
Theirs Shepard's eye change.
The fact Shepard lives in the destory ending when he is told he'll die.
TIM control Shepard with indoctriantion.
There's a whole documatry about this.

Those are not predictions.  Those are observations that led to the formation of the hypothesis that Shepard is indoctrinated.   

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.

Again my friend, that is not a fact. It may be in your head, or aplying the theory to the ending, but not in the canon story.

Every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM controls Shepard....That makes it a fact. And I already said this yet you never try to argue this point but insist it's not comfermed.....The symtoms comferm it.

[SubAstris]

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact Shepard lives in the destory ending when he is told he'll die.

Of all the bulls**t "evidence" for IT, this really tops it. The Catalyst never says he will die, you are just making an assumption on things that you can only speculate on.

[KingZayd]

mauro2222 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Yes, it's a literary interpretation/theory on an existing work of fiction...
Which is not what fan fiction is...

Yes it is, your creating your own fictional story inside the already existing fictional universe.

No, we're interpreting Bioware's story inside the already existing fictional universe. There's a difference.

[KingZayd]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.

Again my friend, that is not a fact. It may be in your head, or aplying the theory to the ending, but not in the canon story.

The filenames for the effects used in this scene have "indoctrination" in the name