KingZayd wrote...
This is the thing I find stupid about both sides of the whole"Indoctrination theory is not a theory" argument. It is literary analysis, not science. The scientific definitions don't necessarily apply. Look up theory in a dictionary, and you'll see that Indoctrination theory fits at least one of the possible meanings.
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Telling me I can kill all synthetics and then right after tell me I'm partaly synthetic, which is the only thing keeping me alive, does mean chosing destory kills me?SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
The fact Shepard lives in the destory ending when he is told he'll die.
Of all the bulls**t "evidence" for IT, this really tops it. The Catalyst never says he will die, you are just making an assumption on things that you can only speculate on.
Why bring up the fact I'm partly synthetic after say i CAN KILL ALL SYNTHETICS?
But it is not. Remember this, "can you imagine your life without them synthetics"- The Catalyst is not saying "you will die without them" but "you use them everyday, they are of great use to you". . But even if you are right, without synthetics Shepard's life will be threatened, we have no knowledge of Shepard's state at the end, it could be his last breath, we don't know.
Everyone who was in that (mako?) was apparently still alive.
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Shepard cannot survive harbingers beam.
You want to test this? Go to rannoch.
Its also impossible to avoid the scientific theory when making a analysis.
Surviving the beam is not a prediction. It is an observation used to formulate the hypothesis. The scientific method does not make predictions about things that already happened. It is used to predict events after the hypothesis has been formulated to test its validity.
And yes, people make analysis all the time without using the scienfic method, partiularly in literary analysis.
Do you know what the method is? You cant make a analysis without using at least parts of it.
llbountyhunter wrote...
He also said most of the technology you use. so no, notjust pure synthetics.
Which is why TIM is planning to used the crucible to bost his power of control. This also was stated in the cerberus base and sactuary.HagarIshay wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Yes, it was. It was stated in the cerberus base and santuray that he plan to do this and had the tech implated into him.
If you go on like this I will link the videos showing this.
It was also stated that controling the harvested is much more difficult than controling reapers. It might mean that the control is not quite the same.
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Shepard cannot survive harbingers beam.
You want to test this? Go to rannoch.
Its also impossible to avoid the scientific theory when making a analysis.
Surviving the beam is not a prediction. It is an observation used to formulate the hypothesis. The scientific method does not make predictions about things that already happened. It is used to predict events after the hypothesis has been formulated to test its validity.
And yes, people make analysis all the time without using the scienfic method, partiularly in literary analysis.
Do you know what the method is? You cant make a analysis without using at least parts of it.
Using part of the scientific method is not using the scientific method. If you want to claim that IT uses the scientific method to gain the benefits of having survived the rigors of that method, then it has to use all of that method. Otherwise comparing it to real scientific theories is dishonest.
That technolgy that will stop work in Destroy is keeping your Shepard alive.HagarIshay wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
He also said most of the technology you use. so no, notjust pure synthetics.
So what's your point?
dreman9999 wrote...
Which is why TIM is planning to used the crucible to bost his power of control. This also was stated in the cerberus base and sactuary.
Also, all the foreshadowing of it in me1 and 2. And It make no sense to say you can't see comign for obvervation but not used the previous games to observe it.SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?mauro2222 wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Look up the defenition of a theory.
I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.
And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard
I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious
Before the game was released? Object Rho.
That is ME2. Evidence for plans for an indoctrinated Shepard at the end of ME3 is what I am talking about. You can make the argument that they wouldn't do that, because it would spoil the twist. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing against the assertion that they did, for which there is no evidence
dreman9999 wrote...
We had 3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech since Eden prime. There planty of chances for Shepard indoctriantion to start.zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's not like bw will write a completly diffent plot if Shepard doen;t do arrival. If BW intends Shepard to be indoctrianted, but he player didn't play arrival, they they will indcotriante him a different way. If the player did play arrival, everythign is going to plan.zambot wrote...
No. The comic states that Shepard did the events in Arrival. The game (without DLC) states that commandos were responsible for the events in Arrival. The two cannot co-exist, and in the ME universe, the game trumps other media when determining canon, because it is the primary medium.
Perhaps that's a prediction. The prediction is that future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho.
Also, base on how people in the topic is going on about arrival being a dlc you don't have to play. I would think by there logic that the"
future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho" would be non-canon.
dreman9999 wrote...
That technolgy that will stop work in Destroy is keeping your Shepard alive.
The doesn't mean the tech just control the reapers alone. In fact, it could not untill it was connected to the crucible. The tech also controled the implated cerberus troops and husk. It can control being under indoctrination and the reapers.HagarIshay wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Which is why TIM is planning to used the crucible to bost his power of control. This also was stated in the cerberus base and sactuary.
So we both agree that TIM wanted to control the reapers, and can also mean that indoctrination is not necessarly a part from that, since it was never stated Shepard will use indoctrination to conrtol the reapers with choosing control from the crucible?
Good.
SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?mauro2222 wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Look up the defenition of a theory.
I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.
And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard
I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious
Before the game was released? Object Rho.
That is ME2. Evidence for plans for an indoctrinated Shepard at the end of ME3 is what I am talking about. You can make the argument that they wouldn't do that, because it would spoil the twist. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing against the assertion that they did, for which there is no evidence
.. made me accidentally choose synthesis the first time :/ ). The question is.. did they entirely scrap the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated, or just that scene?
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Telling me I can kill all synthetics and then right after tell me I'm partaly synthetic, which is the only thing keeping me alive, does mean chosing destory kills me?SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
The fact Shepard lives in the destory ending when he is told he'll die.
Of all the bulls**t "evidence" for IT, this really tops it. The Catalyst never says he will die, you are just making an assumption on things that you can only speculate on.
Why bring up the fact I'm partly synthetic after say i CAN KILL ALL SYNTHETICS?
But it is not. Remember this, "can you imagine your life without them synthetics"- The Catalyst is not saying "you will die without them" but "you use them everyday, they are of great use to you". . But even if you are right, without synthetics Shepard's life will be threatened, we have no knowledge of Shepard's state at the end, it could be his last breath, we don't know.
I personally take more issue with:
1) The existence of the Starchild. Starchild and ME1 don't work well together.
2) Shepard surviving the explosions on the Citadel.
3) The apparent retreat of forces, when a)The Crucible is our only hope and
among other things.
zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We had 3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech since Eden prime. There planty of chances for Shepard indoctriantion to start.zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's not like bw will write a completly diffent plot if Shepard doen;t do arrival. If BW intends Shepard to be indoctrianted, but he player didn't play arrival, they they will indcotriante him a different way. If the player did play arrival, everythign is going to plan.zambot wrote...
No. The comic states that Shepard did the events in Arrival. The game (without DLC) states that commandos were responsible for the events in Arrival. The two cannot co-exist, and in the ME universe, the game trumps other media when determining canon, because it is the primary medium.
Perhaps that's a prediction. The prediction is that future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho.
Also, base on how people in the topic is going on about arrival being a dlc you don't have to play. I would think by there logic that the"
future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho" would be non-canon.
Canon is something that happens to all Shepards. So in your example, if DLC explains how Shep got indoctrinated without Arrival, then the "how" would not be canon. But if it at the same time was revealed that Shep was also indoctrinated by Rho, then in fact the canon is that Shep is indoctrinated, since it happens regardless of your choices surrounding the DLC.
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?mauro2222 wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Look up the defenition of a theory.
I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.
And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard
I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious
Before the game was released? Object Rho.
That is ME2. Evidence for plans for an indoctrinated Shepard at the end of ME3 is what I am talking about. You can make the argument that they wouldn't do that, because it would spoil the twist. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing against the assertion that they did, for which there is no evidence
ME2 comes before ME3. You said plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard. I would have said Object Rho is indicative of that.
OK, i hadn't read the entire quote pyramid. Erm, didn't that "Final Hours" thing say that they were planning to have you lose control during gameplay due to indoctrination, but they found the mechanics too difficult? Now, clearly they scrapped that event, since it really happen (unless you count the instant cutscenes if you explore the decision room
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Shepard cannot survive harbingers beam.
You want to test this? Go to rannoch.
Its also impossible to avoid the scientific theory when making a analysis.
Surviving the beam is not a prediction. It is an observation used to formulate the hypothesis. The scientific method does not make predictions about things that already happened. It is used to predict events after the hypothesis has been formulated to test its validity.
And yes, people make analysis all the time without using the scienfic method, partiularly in literary analysis.
Do you know what the method is? You cant make a analysis without using at least parts of it.
Using part of the scientific method is not using the scientific method. If you want to claim that IT uses the scientific method to gain the benefits of having survived the rigors of that method, then it has to use all of that method. Otherwise comparing it to real scientific theories is dishonest.
Did i say the entire process was used?
IT is still a theory by defintion
HagarIshay wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Which is why TIM is planning to used the crucible to bost his power of control. This also was stated in the cerberus base and sactuary.
So we both agree that TIM wanted to control the reapers, and can also mean that indoctrination is not necessarly a part from that, since it was never stated Shepard will use indoctrination to conrtol the reapers with choosing control from the crucible?
Good.
Like LOTSB. if BW wants to write there story based on the results of the dlc, the do what ever they can with the story to get that way. If they have Shepard indoctrianted, they well apply it how were they can o him using the story. Indoctriantion is a type of thing in a story that won't be hinted at till the end.zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We had 3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech since Eden prime. There planty of chances for Shepard indoctriantion to start.zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's not like bw will write a completly diffent plot if Shepard doen;t do arrival. If BW intends Shepard to be indoctrianted, but he player didn't play arrival, they they will indcotriante him a different way. If the player did play arrival, everythign is going to plan.zambot wrote...
No. The comic states that Shepard did the events in Arrival. The game (without DLC) states that commandos were responsible for the events in Arrival. The two cannot co-exist, and in the ME universe, the game trumps other media when determining canon, because it is the primary medium.
Perhaps that's a prediction. The prediction is that future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho.
Also, base on how people in the topic is going on about arrival being a dlc you don't have to play. I would think by there logic that the"
future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho" would be non-canon.
Canon is something that happens to all Shepards. So in your example, if DLC explains how Shep got indoctrinated without Arrival, then the "how" would not be canon. But if it at the same time was revealed that Shep was also indoctrinated by Rho, then in fact the canon is that Shep is indoctrinated, since it happens regardless of your choices surrounding the DLC.
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
We had 3 years of on and off contact with reaper tech since Eden prime. There planty of chances for Shepard indoctriantion to start.zambot wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
It's not like bw will write a completly diffent plot if Shepard doen;t do arrival. If BW intends Shepard to be indoctrianted, but he player didn't play arrival, they they will indcotriante him a different way. If the player did play arrival, everythign is going to plan.zambot wrote...
No. The comic states that Shepard did the events in Arrival. The game (without DLC) states that commandos were responsible for the events in Arrival. The two cannot co-exist, and in the ME universe, the game trumps other media when determining canon, because it is the primary medium.
Perhaps that's a prediction. The prediction is that future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho.
Also, base on how people in the topic is going on about arrival being a dlc you don't have to play. I would think by there logic that the"
future DLC will explain how Shepard came to be indoctrinated if he did not come into contact with Object Rho" would be non-canon.
Canon is something that happens to all Shepards. So in your example, if DLC explains how Shep got indoctrinated without Arrival, then the "how" would not be canon. But if it at the same time was revealed that Shep was also indoctrinated by Rho, then in fact the canon is that Shep is indoctrinated, since it happens regardless of your choices surrounding the DLC.
Definitions of "cannon" vary.... so no.
The most common is a fixed event, such as in theass effect books, since these events cannot be altered and happen either way.
dreman9999 wrote...
Also, all the foreshadowing of it in me1 and 2. And It make no sense to say you can't see comign for obvervation but not used the previous games to observe it.SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?mauro2222 wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Look up the defenition of a theory.
I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.
And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard
I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious
Before the game was released? Object Rho.
That is ME2. Evidence for plans for an indoctrinated Shepard at the end of ME3 is what I am talking about. You can make the argument that they wouldn't do that, because it would spoil the twist. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing against the assertion that they did, for which there is no evidence
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
zambot wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Shepard cannot survive harbingers beam.
You want to test this? Go to rannoch.
Its also impossible to avoid the scientific theory when making a analysis.
Surviving the beam is not a prediction. It is an observation used to formulate the hypothesis. The scientific method does not make predictions about things that already happened. It is used to predict events after the hypothesis has been formulated to test its validity.
And yes, people make analysis all the time without using the scienfic method, partiularly in literary analysis.
Do you know what the method is? You cant make a analysis without using at least parts of it.
Using part of the scientific method is not using the scientific method. If you want to claim that IT uses the scientific method to gain the benefits of having survived the rigors of that method, then it has to use all of that method. Otherwise comparing it to real scientific theories is dishonest.
Did i say the entire process was used?
IT is still a theory by defintion
Yes, you said the scientific method was used to create IT. It was not.
IT is in fact a form literary theory or literary analysis. It's a pretty good one at that. It is in no way a scientific theory.
The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?mauro2222 wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Look up the defenition of a theory.
I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.
And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard
I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious
Before the game was released? Object Rho.
That is ME2. Evidence for plans for an indoctrinated Shepard at the end of ME3 is what I am talking about. You can make the argument that they wouldn't do that, because it would spoil the twist. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing against the assertion that they did, for which there is no evidence
ME2 comes before ME3. You said plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard. I would have said Object Rho is indicative of that.
OK, i hadn't read the entire quote pyramid. Erm, didn't that "Final Hours" thing say that they were planning to have you lose control during gameplay due to indoctrination, but they found the mechanics too difficult? Now, clearly they scrapped that event, since it really happen (unless you count the instant cutscenes if you explore the decision room
From what I know, Shepard himself wasn't meant to be indoctrinated, TIM was meant to turn into a monster
The head writer from ME1 said this.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
Also, all the foreshadowing of it in me1 and 2. And It make no sense to say you can't see comign for obvervation but not used the previous games to observe it.SubAstris wrote...
KingZayd wrote...
SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
..Except for TIM controling Shepard with indoctriantion.SubAstris wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
How can it be a fanfic if the offical writers of the story made plans to use it? And even more so, foreshadowed it?mauro2222 wrote...
llbountyhunter wrote...
Look up the defenition of a theory.
I never said it wasn't a theory... I said it was fanfiction. They aren't exclusive.
And yet, there is no evidence that BW had plans to see an indoctrinated Shepard
I'm talking about before the game was released, that was obvious
Before the game was released? Object Rho.
That is ME2. Evidence for plans for an indoctrinated Shepard at the end of ME3 is what I am talking about. You can make the argument that they wouldn't do that, because it would spoil the twist. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing against the assertion that they did, for which there is no evidence
Examples of Shepard himself being indoctrinated are few and far between. But you said you had evidence of explicit plans on BW's part
Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 06:42 .
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