553 réponses à ce sujet

[zambot]

llbountyhunter wrote...

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


Shepard cannot survive harbingers beam.

You want to test this? Go to rannoch.


Its also impossible to avoid the scientific theory when making a analysis.

Surviving the beam is not a prediction.  It is an observation used to formulate the hypothesis.  The scientific method does not make predictions about things that already happened.  It is used to predict events after the hypothesis has been formulated to test its validity.

And yes, people make analysis all the time without using the scienfic method, partiularly in literary analysis.

Do you know what the method is? You cant make a analysis without using at least parts of it.

Using part of the scientific method is not using the scientific method.  If you want to claim that IT uses the scientific method to gain the benefits of having survived the rigors of that method, then it has to use all of that method.  Otherwise comparing it to real scientific theories is dishonest.

Did i say the entire process was used?

IT is still a theory by defintion

Yes, you said the scientific method was used to create IT.  It was not.

IT is in fact a form literary theory or literary analysis.  It's a pretty good one at that.  It is in no way a scientific theory.

Still twisting the argument.....

Yes it was partialy used. I shouldve clarified.

A dictionary can tell you its a theory. (Not a SCIENTIFIC one) but yes it is also a literay analysis. 

I'm not twisting anything.  You cannot say something used the "scientific method" if in fact it only used part of it.  However, now that we're clear that IT is not rooted in science and comparing it to valid scientific theories is not appropriate, I feel better.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...


I don't. I'm pretty sure TIM was intending to use indoctrination to accomplish that, and if Vendetta is right about someone controlling the Reapers, I suspect it's through indoctrination. This would explain why none of the Reapers seem to be aware that they're being controlled (also delcicious irony)

I must admit it would be pretty cool to indoctrinate the indoctrinators. Bit the enemy at his own game, ha?

Still, it's all a specualtion, like I said, It can be true, but it can also mean that TIM found another way to control the reapers. We can't know for sure, since it is never stated. 

And actually I think some of the reapers know they are being controled. The reaper on rannoch, for example. 

[llbountyhunter]

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

zambot wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


Shepard cannot survive harbingers beam.

You want to test this? Go to rannoch.


Its also impossible to avoid the scientific theory when making a analysis.

Surviving the beam is not a prediction.  It is an observation used to formulate the hypothesis.  The scientific method does not make predictions about things that already happened.  It is used to predict events after the hypothesis has been formulated to test its validity.

And yes, people make analysis all the time without using the scienfic method, partiularly in literary analysis.

Do you know what the method is? You cant make a analysis without using at least parts of it.

Using part of the scientific method is not using the scientific method.  If you want to claim that IT uses the scientific method to gain the benefits of having survived the rigors of that method, then it has to use all of that method.  Otherwise comparing it to real scientific theories is dishonest.

Did i say the entire process was used?

IT is still a theory by defintion

Yes, you said the scientific method was used to create IT.  It was not.

IT is in fact a form literary theory or literary analysis.  It's a pretty good one at that.  It is in no way a scientific theory.

Still twisting the argument.....

Yes it was partialy used. I shouldve clarified.

A dictionary can tell you its a theory. (Not a SCIENTIFIC one) but yes it is also a literay analysis. 

I'm not twisting anything.  You cannot say something used the "scientific method" if in fact it only used part of it.  However, now that we're clear that IT is not rooted in science and comparing it to valid scientific theories is not appropriate, I feel better.

The scientific theory is not exclusive to science. Thats all.

[Ageless Face]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

Wait, what? The leaked script was about dark energy. Nothing was about indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


I don't. I'm pretty sure TIM was intending to use indoctrination to accomplish that, and if Vendetta is right about someone controlling the Reapers, I suspect it's through indoctrination. This would explain why none of the Reapers seem to be aware that they're being controlled (also delcicious irony)

I must admit it would be pretty cool to indoctrinate the indoctrinators. Bit the enemy at his own game, ha?

Still, it's all a specualtion, like I said, It can be true, but it can also mean that TIM found another way to control the reapers. We can't know for sure, since it is never stated. 

And actually I think some of the reapers know they are being controled. The reaper on rannoch, for example. 

Every symtom of the indoctriantion popping up when Shepard is controled by TIM MAKES IT NOT A SPECULATION.

[KingZayd]

SubAstris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The fact Shepard lives in the destory ending when he is told he'll die.

Of all the bulls**t "evidence" for IT, this really tops it. The Catalyst never says he will die, you are just making an assumption on things that you can only speculate on.

Telling me I can kill all synthetics and then right after tell me I'm partaly synthetic, which is the only thing keeping me alive, does mean chosing destory kills me?
Why bring up the fact I'm partly synthetic after say i CAN KILL ALL SYNTHETICS?

But it is not. Remember this, "can you imagine your life without them synthetics"- The Catalyst is not saying "you will die without them" but "you use them everyday, they are of great use to you". . But even if you are right, without synthetics Shepard's life will be threatened, we have no knowledge of Shepard's state at the end, it could be his last breath, we don't know.

I personally take more issue with:
1) The existence of the Starchild. Starchild and ME1 don't work well together.
2) Shepard surviving the explosions on the Citadel.
3) The apparent retreat of forces, when a)The Crucible is our only hope and Everyone who was in that (mako?) was apparently still alive.
among other things.

1) Yeah, that is the big problem with introducing a major character very very late in a game. We have limited knowledge of the capabilities of the Catalyst, he is just an AI after all.
2) I think that is one of the best evidence against a non-face value explanation IMO (although that is not saying much!), but of course we see him living at the end.
3) You mean post-Harbinger scene? They have just been completely decimated as a force, wise military strategy would dictate that the remaining forces gather together for another go later.

2) against a non-face value interpretation? or against a face value intepretation? you've said the former, but since you haven't elaborated, it seems as if you might be meaning the latter?

3) Except they were all meant to be charging down with us. So they should certainly be well on their way to the Citadel  (I think Shepard's past the halfway line?). At what point do they decide "Oh the force has been decimated, we should probably head back"? How do they manage all this without anyone of them getting hit? And Anderson follows you up, but appears unscathed. WHY WAS HE BEHIND US? We had a reaper-induced nap for a while.. that's our excuse.. what's his? Couldn't he at least have helped out with Marauder Shields?
Why is there an elite force of 2 (or 3? i'm forgetting now) husks and a Marauder guarding the entrance now? Why does the teleport bring us so conveniently close to the control panel with only TIM in the way?
etc.

For me, getting knocked out by Harbinger, is the point at which things get silly if you're expected to take them at face value

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Do you know how many times it was shown already add as well as shown in th elast hours app?

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

Wait, what? The leaked script was about dark energy. Nothing was about indoctrination.

The leaked script did have indoctriantion in it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 06:51 .

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Do you know how many times it was shown already add as well as shown in th elast hours app?

Prove it.

The leaked script I read still had the catalyst in it. Show me the one about Shep being indoctrinated.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Do you know how many times it was shown already add as well as shown in th elast hours app?

Prove it.

The leaked script I read still had the catalyst in it. Show me the one about Shep being indoctrinated.

Did you miss the part where he's controled by Harbinger? That was in the orignal script.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

Every symtom of the indoctriantion popping up when Shepard is controled by TIM MAKES IT NOT A SPECULATION.

TIM CONTROLING SHEPARD IS NOT A SPECULATION. TIM INDOCTRINATING SHEPARD IS.

Shepard is not hearing clear voices. Grayson needed to hear the voices to be turly indoc. TIM is controling Shepard's actions. That dosen't mean he is indoctrinatin her. Shepard can still talk and tell TIM what she is thinking. Indoctrinated people are either completley control their actions for a very short time, or don't control at all, just obsreve from afar.

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


I don't. I'm pretty sure TIM was intending to use indoctrination to accomplish that, and if Vendetta is right about someone controlling the Reapers, I suspect it's through indoctrination. This would explain why none of the Reapers seem to be aware that they're being controlled (also delcicious irony)

I must admit it would be pretty cool to indoctrinate the indoctrinators. Bit the enemy at his own game, ha?

Still, it's all a specualtion, like I said, It can be true, but it can also mean that TIM found another way to control the reapers. We can't know for sure, since it is never stated. 

And actually I think some of the reapers know they are being controled. The reaper on rannoch, for example. 

The Reaper of Rannoch, has ideas on why its doing what it does but it doesn't indicate any knowledge that it's being controlled. In fact I think this would help explain why these huge minds (created from races that have all undergone this horror), seem to all work together and "believe in the cause" despite the different Reapers we meet providing pretty different attitudes towards us and Organics. Sovereign seems to treat us with contempt. Rannoch Reaper seems to genuinely believe that its saving us from something.

I think this feels similar to the way the Reapers manipulate their thralls. They all feel as if they have their own reasons for what they're doing, and that their actions are their own, but they're all being manipulated.

Yes, it's speculation. But it seems to be the most sensible explanation from where I'm sitting. TIM's research (based on what we see at Sanctuary and the Cerberus HQ) seems to be entirely focused on: apparent performance boosts from reaper implants, indoctrination, preventing Cerberus troops from being indoctrinated by the Reapers instead of Cerberus, taking control of Reaper husks, Reaper communication, taking control of the Reapers. It all seems to be very much linked to indoctrination.

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 06:58 .

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

The leaked script did have indoctriantion in it.

No, it didn't. It was said that the devs thought about indoctrination, but never actually proceeded with the actual plan, if I recall right.

Check the leaked script again.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Do you know how many times it was shown already add as well as shown in th elast hours app?

Prove it.

The leaked script I read still had the catalyst in it. Show me the one about Shep being indoctrinated.

Did you miss the part where he's controled by Harbinger? That was in the orignal script.

Im asking you to SHOW me the part of the leaked script that has Shep being indoctrinated.

Link it and quote the appropriate part. All im asking.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Every symtom of the indoctriantion popping up when Shepard is controled by TIM MAKES IT NOT A SPECULATION.

TIM CONTROLING SHEPARD IS NOT A SPECULATION. TIM INDOCTRINATING SHEPARD IS.

Shepard is not hearing clear voices. Grayson needed to hear the voices to be turly indoc. TIM is controling Shepard's actions. That dosen't mean he is indoctrinatin her. Shepard can still talk and tell TIM what she is thinking. Indoctrinated people are either completley control their actions for a very short time, or don't control at all, just obsreve from afar.

If every symtom of indoctriantion pops up when TIM control Shepard, then it means it's indoctrination.And Grayson didn't hear clear voices till the final stage of his indoctriantion but he did hear it at the start. Shepard has buzzing sounds,whispers he can't right hear,oily shadow, and he lost most of his motor control. And after that he talk to a ghoustly child on the out side ofthe citadel who was giving him clear suggetions.
How is that not syntoms of indoctriantion?

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The leaked script did have indoctriantion in it.

No, it didn't. It was said that the devs thought about indoctrination, but never actually proceeded with the actual plan, if I recall right.

Check the leaked script again.

They said they though about using it via game play but cut it. It doens't mean the concept was cut out. It means it was change from gameplay to pure story with TIM doing the controling instead of HARBINGER.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The head write form ME1 planned that Shepard was going to be indoctrianted. The leaked script has Shepard being indoctrianted and the game has TIm controling Shepard with indoctriantion...
How in any way is it shown it was not planned orginally?

First I've heard of this.

Proof please?

ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Do you know how many times it was shown already add as well as shown in th elast hours app?

Prove it.

The leaked script I read still had the catalyst in it. Show me the one about Shep being indoctrinated.

Did you miss the part where he's controled by Harbinger? That was in the orignal script.

Im asking you to SHOW me the part of the leaked script that has Shep being indoctrinated.

Link it and quote the appropriate part. All im asking.

You already know it's there. So posting it would be pointless. It 's in the final hours doc.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 07:02 .

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


I don't. I'm pretty sure TIM was intending to use indoctrination to accomplish that, and if Vendetta is right about someone controlling the Reapers, I suspect it's through indoctrination. This would explain why none of the Reapers seem to be aware that they're being controlled (also delcicious irony)

I must admit it would be pretty cool to indoctrinate the indoctrinators. Bit the enemy at his own game, ha?

Still, it's all a specualtion, like I said, It can be true, but it can also mean that TIM found another way to control the reapers. We can't know for sure, since it is never stated. 

And actually I think some of the reapers know they are being controled. The reaper on rannoch, for example. 

Every symtom of the indoctriantion popping up when Shepard is controled by TIM MAKES IT NOT A SPECULATION.

That post is about the Reapers being controlled by indoctrination. So yes, it is speculation, as it is without hard evidence, but I think it makes a lot of sense, and it seems to fit rather well if Vendetta is right.

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...

The Reaper of Rannoch, has ideas on why its doing what it does but it doesn't indicate any knowledge that it's being controlled. In fact I think this would help explain why these huge minds (created from races that have all undergone this horror), seem to all work together and "believe in the cause" despite the different Reapers we meet providing pretty different attitudes towards us and Organics. Sovereign seems to treat us with contempt. Rannoch Reaper seems to genuinely believe that its saving us from something.

I think this feels similar to the way the Reapers manipulate their thralls. They all feel as if they have their own reasons for what they're doing, and that their actions are their own, but they're all being manipulated.

Well, your idea about it is certantly better than mine, I admit. Though the reaper on rannoch kind of seemed to me that he knew about the cause he was sent to, he just didn't reveal it. But if the reapers stayed as we know them from the previous games, it makes a lot of sense.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...



Im asking you to SHOW me the part of the leaked script that has Shep being indoctrinated.

Link it and quote the appropriate part. All im asking.

You already know it's there. So posting it would be pointless. It 's in the final hours doc.

You were talking out of your ass weren't you?

The leaked script made no reference to Shepard being indoctrinated and you know it. <_<

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


I don't. I'm pretty sure TIM was intending to use indoctrination to accomplish that, and if Vendetta is right about someone controlling the Reapers, I suspect it's through indoctrination. This would explain why none of the Reapers seem to be aware that they're being controlled (also delcicious irony)

I must admit it would be pretty cool to indoctrinate the indoctrinators. Bit the enemy at his own game, ha?

Still, it's all a specualtion, like I said, It can be true, but it can also mean that TIM found another way to control the reapers. We can't know for sure, since it is never stated. 

And actually I think some of the reapers know they are being controled. The reaper on rannoch, for example. 

Every symtom of the indoctriantion popping up when Shepard is controled by TIM MAKES IT NOT A SPECULATION.

That post is about the Reapers being controlled by indoctrination. So yes, it is speculation, as it is without hard evidence, but I think it makes a lot of sense, and it seems to fit rather well if Vendetta is right.

No, you jump into my post about TIM using indoctriantion. My comment is not about the reapers being indoctrianted. I'm taking about TIM using indoctriantion on Shepard.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

They said they though about using it via game play but cut it. It doens't mean the concept was cut out. It means it was change from gameplay to pure story with TIM doing the controling instead of HARBINGER.

They didn't even say it was cut. Just that they thought about it. The idea was about Shepard either sacrificing the humans, destroying all the relays, or destroying the reapers because if dark eneegy. 

If you can't bring proofs about the leaked script having it, then it might be because it's not true.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...



Im asking you to SHOW me the part of the leaked script that has Shep being indoctrinated.

Link it and quote the appropriate part. All im asking.

You already know it's there. So posting it would be pointless. It 's in the final hours doc.

You were talking out of your ass weren't you?

The leaked script made no reference to Shepard being indoctrinated and you know it. <_<

The leaked script has harbinger controling Shepard. SO yes , it does.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...



Im asking you to SHOW me the part of the leaked script that has Shep being indoctrinated.

Link it and quote the appropriate part. All im asking.

You already know it's there. So posting it would be pointless. It 's in the final hours doc.

You were talking out of your ass weren't you?

The leaked script made no reference to Shepard being indoctrinated and you know it. <_<

The leaked script has harbinger controling Shepard. SO yes , it does.

Prove it.