553 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

Let's see...Orginaly, Harbinger was to control Shepard via gameplay and latter TIM via cut scene, both using indoctriantion on him
Now, it just TIM control Shepard with indoctriantion
I would call that a change, not a drop of concept.

Great I saw just a moment ago. but they never said it was part of the leaked script, or the ending, or it effected the whole plot...

Modifié par HagarIshay, 15 juin 2012 - 07:25 .

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Here! Here it is!!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12047832/795


Sorry can post pics at the moment..

I know it's in the Final Hours App...

Dreman is claiming it's also in the leaked script, and that's what I'm asking him to prove.

The pic just side it was orignaly planed. Would that mean it was in the  orignal  script?

[Lord Goose]

Arrival is not cannon.
well, as it turns out, that the events of arrival do seem to be canonical. take a look at this mass effect comic introducing Vega.

Now we can fairly certain that whatever happened on that asteroid is in fact, cannon.

If you haven't played Arrival, your will have this message in War Assets list.

Admiral Hackett dispatched marines to the planet Aratoht to rescue a deep cover agent, Dr. Amanda Kenson. The teams were killed in an explosion that wiped out both the colony and the system's relay. The Alliance spent weeks piecing together scattered radio transmissions, learning that the marines felt they had no choice but to send an asteroid into the relay to prevent invasion by the Reapers. While it bought the Alliance some time, the men and women lost on the mission were a severe blow to the 103rd Marine Corps.

So, Arrival cannot be canon for each and every Shepard. It is even acknowledged in game.

Lieutenant Victus doesn't want to sacrifice his men for the mission, and all Shepards talk him into it...
Hackett sacrifices the entire second fleet, and Garrus has to make some extremely unpleasant tactical decisions...

You're missing the point here.

Sacrifices are only acceptable as long, as where is no other solution (or you're playing renegade). If you're playing Arrival, Shepard has to destroy batarian colonies, because if he won't do it, Reapers would invade the Galaxy.

This is essentially different from the situation in the ending, where you have choices which have same chances of being traps.

Yes, all of them could be traps. Even if we agree with basic premises of I. T., where is still a chance that Reapers still could make Shepard paranoid after Destroy, and he will screw up everything. They actually done it with Paul Grayson, when he tried to rebel. Reapers pretended to be defeated, and subtly manipulated him to do as they wanted.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let's see...Orginaly, Harbinger was to control Shepard via gameplay and latter TIM via cut scene, both using indoctriantion on him
Now, it just TIM control Shepard with indoctriantion
I would call that a change, not a drop of concept.

Great, but they never said it was part of the leaked script, or the ending, or it effected the whole plot...

The last hour app said it was originally planned. And it's still part of the ending being that the concept is still in the game.
You really have know point to argue on.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 07:28 .

[KingZayd]

zambot wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The thing says that the scene was dropped (due to difficulty with implenting the mechanics) . It says nothing about the storyline leading to that scene.

Looks like you're not immune to fallacy yourself

Right.  It does not prove anything about the story one way or the other, thus it cannot be used as proof either for the hypothesis that Shep is indoctrinated, or against it.

It's certainly proof that at some point they were planning to have Shepard indoctrinated. It's proof that Bioware are capable of thinking of indoctrination (contrary to some claims). Whether they abandoned the entire plan or just the scene, who knows?

I'd say at the very least it's evidence that IT is plausible, and not as ridiculous as some would make it out to be.

Proof implies certainty, so there is no proof one way or the other, at least until the EC.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Here! Here it is!!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12047832/795


Sorry can post pics at the moment..

I know it's in the Final Hours App...

Dreman is claiming it's also in the leaked script, and that's what I'm asking him to prove.

The pic just side it was orignaly planed. Would that mean it was in the  orignal  script?

They were "experimenting with an endgame sequence"... That doesn't mean it was originally planned.

For all you know they went "Hey what if we add a scene where THIS happens?" half way through development, tried it, failed to implement it because of gameplay issues, and consequently dropped it.


So not only did you reference the wrong piece of source material numerous times, you did so based on an assumption.

My brain hurts.

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...


You're missing the point here.

Sacrifices are only acceptable as long, as where is no other solution (or you're playing renegade). If you're playing Arrival, Shepard has to destroy batarian colonies, because if he won't do it, Reapers would invade the Galaxy.

This is essentially different from the situation in the ending, where you have choices which have same chances of being traps.

Yes, all of them could be traps. Even if we agree with basic premises of I. T., where is still a chance that Reapers still could make Shepard paranoid after Destroy, and he will screw up everything. They actually done it with Paul Grayson, when he tried to rebel. Reapers pretended to be defeated, and subtly manipulated him to do as they wanted.

That's still a arguement for IT, I hope you know.

[Ageless Face]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...


Not sure what you mean, can never understand the whispers/voices clearly can only guess what they say. The presence of the Nightmare-whispers during the The Illusive Man-Anderson-Citadel conversation is the odd part about it.

Shepard is not indoctrinated yet, the ending sequence would be the Indoctrination Attempt being played out in Shepard's mind/our perspective. If Shepard is successfully indoctrinated I'm sure we'll see all of the symptoms after the fact but for now we have our speculation.

The Catalyst we see can definitely be a hyper-advanced AI controlling the reapers, yes, but it's the fact that it yanks the image of the boy Shepard failed to save from his/her mind and uses it as well the boys voice and male/female Shepards. If it can take things out of Shepard's mind, what's to stop it from putting ideas in? Example, the flash forwards of Anderson picking Destroy and TIM picking control. The whole exchange is...odd.

Exactly. In the book retrubution, Grayson needed to hear the voices clearly and understand what they mean. Only then he became indoctrinated. Shepard didn't not need to understand the voices to be controlled. Thus, TIM didn't control through indoctrination, or at least the same indoctrination.

If Shepard was not indoctrinated when TIM controlled her, then TIM didn't control thourgh indoc. That was my point.

Javik can read minds thourgh mere touch. The prothean VIs Learned Shepard's languge by simply her being there. Obviously the catalyst is more advanced than protheans.

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Makrys wrote...


Yes, its in the final hours app. They were working with an Indoctrinated Shepard as Nov 2011, but decided the gameplay element was too difficult to implement, so they scrapped it. Never said they scrapped the concept or plot. Just that particular gameplay sequence.

Its very possible that this scene could have evolved into the TIM confrontation, or perhaps something we will see when the EC releases, if they decide to try and implement it via gameplay again, or just a cinematic.

I meant that the idea was also taken to be part of the actual plot and effected the ending. It might be true, but BioWare never said it was.

The fact that TIm is controling SHepard with indoctriaton means it's still there. Also, stop comfusing the final stage of indoctriation with all of indoctriantion.

That wouldn't be the final stage of indoctrination either. I believe we saw the final stage on Vermire and the Derelict Reaper? The final stage is huskification. They basically become (remote control?) zombies.

[Makrys]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Here! Here it is!!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12047832/795


Sorry can post pics at the moment..

Hmmm, Fair enough. Still it doesn't say if it effects the ending or the whole plot.

Yes it does. The Final Hours App specifically said the sequence they were experimenting with was an endgame sequence. They ultimately cut it because it proved to difficult to implement alongside dialogue choices. I personally, think they later morphed that scene into the TIM confrontation. It is the only scene in the game where Shepard is 'controlled'. And we know TIM can't control him, so that's why many think it was his mind being attacked in the dream. Hence the oily shadows at the edge of screen, the whispers, and headaches Shepard experiences all in that one scene. All of which are indoctrination symptoms.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Here! Here it is!!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12047832/795


Sorry can post pics at the moment..

I know it's in the Final Hours App...

Dreman is claiming it's also in the leaked script, and that's what I'm asking him to prove.

The pic just side it was orignaly planed. Would that mean it was in the  orignal  script?

They were "experimenting with an endgame sequence"... That doesn't mean it was originally planned.

For all you know they went "Hey what if we add a scene where THIS happens?" half way through development, tried it, failed to implement it because of gameplay issues, and consequently dropped it.


So not only did you reference the wrong piece of source material numerous times, you did so based on an assumption.

My brain hurts.

1. The head writer form ME1 stated it was for Shepard to be indoctriated.
2. It w was foreshadowed form ME1 AND 2.
3. We even have arrival that foreshadowed it.

How in dear lord was it never planned?

[Makrys]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...


Not sure what you mean, can never understand the whispers/voices clearly can only guess what they say. The presence of the Nightmare-whispers during the The Illusive Man-Anderson-Citadel conversation is the odd part about it.

Shepard is not indoctrinated yet, the ending sequence would be the Indoctrination Attempt being played out in Shepard's mind/our perspective. If Shepard is successfully indoctrinated I'm sure we'll see all of the symptoms after the fact but for now we have our speculation.

The Catalyst we see can definitely be a hyper-advanced AI controlling the reapers, yes, but it's the fact that it yanks the image of the boy Shepard failed to save from his/her mind and uses it as well the boys voice and male/female Shepards. If it can take things out of Shepard's mind, what's to stop it from putting ideas in? Example, the flash forwards of Anderson picking Destroy and TIM picking control. The whole exchange is...odd.

Exactly. In the book retrubution, Grayson needed to hear the voices clearly and understand what they mean. Only then he became indoctrinated. Shepard didn't not need to understand the voices to be controlled. Thus, TIM didn't control through indoctrination, or at least the same indoctrination.

If Shepard was not indoctrinated when TIM controlled her, then TIM didn't control thourgh indoc. That was my point.

Javik can read minds thourgh mere touch. The prothean VIs Learned Shepard's languge by simply her being there. Obviously the catalyst is more advanced than protheans.

TIM can not control anything but a husk. And we never even see that happen, so that itself is an unsure assessment. Much less, can he control a person. The whole concept of TIM is that he was deceived into thinking he could control the Reapers, when in actuality they were controlling him. That's how indoctrination works. You think you're mind is still your own until its too late. And once TIM fully realized he had no control over himself, he committed suicide. Whether that was a dream or not, it was a direct representation of how indoctrination works. Same as Saren.

[HellishFiend]

jijeebo wrote...


My brain hurts.

Ditto. You guys seem to think that BW is more likely to write "Thematically Revolting" endings that defy all precedent events and symbolism, rather than craft a brilliant scheme to convey the experience of indoctrination to the players from a first person perspective, based on the themes established across the entire trilogy. 

I personally believe IT just by concept alone. The evidence we have is just icing on the cake, and a fun activity to engage in while waiting for the EC. In short, I have faith in Bioware and am enjoying myself here on BSN.

I'm HellishFiend, and these are my favorite speculations on the Citadel. 

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...


Not sure what you mean, can never understand the whispers/voices clearly can only guess what they say. The presence of the Nightmare-whispers during the The Illusive Man-Anderson-Citadel conversation is the odd part about it.

Shepard is not indoctrinated yet, the ending sequence would be the Indoctrination Attempt being played out in Shepard's mind/our perspective. If Shepard is successfully indoctrinated I'm sure we'll see all of the symptoms after the fact but for now we have our speculation.

The Catalyst we see can definitely be a hyper-advanced AI controlling the reapers, yes, but it's the fact that it yanks the image of the boy Shepard failed to save from his/her mind and uses it as well the boys voice and male/female Shepards. If it can take things out of Shepard's mind, what's to stop it from putting ideas in? Example, the flash forwards of Anderson picking Destroy and TIM picking control. The whole exchange is...odd.

Exactly. In the book retrubution, Grayson needed to hear the voices clearly and understand what they mean. Only then he became indoctrinated. Shepard didn't not need to understand the voices to be controlled. Thus, TIM didn't control through indoctrination, or at least the same indoctrination.

If Shepard was not indoctrinated when TIM controlled her, then TIM didn't control thourgh indoc. That was my point.

Javik can read minds thourgh mere touch. The prothean VIs Learned Shepard's languge by simply her being there. Obviously the catalyst is more advanced than protheans.

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Here! Here it is!!

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12047832/795


Sorry can post pics at the moment..

I know it's in the Final Hours App...

Dreman is claiming it's also in the leaked script, and that's what I'm asking him to prove.

The pic just side it was orignaly planed. Would that mean it was in the  orignal  script?

They were "experimenting with an endgame sequence"... That doesn't mean it was originally planned.

For all you know they went "Hey what if we add a scene where THIS happens?" half way through development, tried it, failed to implement it because of gameplay issues, and consequently dropped it.


So not only did you reference the wrong piece of source material numerous times, you did so based on an assumption.

My brain hurts.

1. The head writer form ME1 stated it was for Shepard to be indoctriated.
2. It w was foreshadowed form ME1 AND 2.
3. We even have arrival that foreshadowed it.

How in dear lord was it never planned?

1. Did he? I'd like you to actually prove that Drew said that the original ending was for Shepard to become indoctrinated... As far as I recall it was originally the Dark Energy plot that was foreshadowed in ME2 with Talis mission.

2. Indoctrination is a key aspect of the ME universe, of course you're going to find evidence if you go looking for it.

3. Arrival isn't canon.


None of those things indicate that the dropped sequence was part of ME3 in the original script... So it's an assumption.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.So was Grayson and Bensisa. They both were controled before understanding the voices. Even hereing the voices means indoctriantion.
2. Also, you confusing fully indoctrinated with indoctriation in general indoctriation. It come in stages and the person can have there own will. Even Benzia kept her own will and oposed the reapers control on her own underindoction.
3. You can't even give me proof the scene was real. If you can't, how can you tell me whats going on.

Yes, the symtons are indoctriantion, it's just that Shepard is not at the final stage of it. Understand that it comes in stages.

1. What? Grayson was only controlled AFTER understanding the voices. And from where you got that benezia didn't understand the voices?

2. But TIM controlled Shepard, didn't he? And Benezia could free herself to fully control over her actions. Not just talk and say what she wanted to say. Then she changed back and tried to kill Shepard. 

3. Because I see it happens. 

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...


Not sure what you mean, can never understand the whispers/voices clearly can only guess what they say. The presence of the Nightmare-whispers during the The Illusive Man-Anderson-Citadel conversation is the odd part about it.

Shepard is not indoctrinated yet, the ending sequence would be the Indoctrination Attempt being played out in Shepard's mind/our perspective. If Shepard is successfully indoctrinated I'm sure we'll see all of the symptoms after the fact but for now we have our speculation.

The Catalyst we see can definitely be a hyper-advanced AI controlling the reapers, yes, but it's the fact that it yanks the image of the boy Shepard failed to save from his/her mind and uses it as well the boys voice and male/female Shepards. If it can take things out of Shepard's mind, what's to stop it from putting ideas in? Example, the flash forwards of Anderson picking Destroy and TIM picking control. The whole exchange is...odd.

Exactly. In the book retrubution, Grayson needed to hear the voices clearly and understand what they mean. Only then he became indoctrinated. Shepard didn't not need to understand the voices to be controlled. Thus, TIM didn't control through indoctrination, or at least the same indoctrination.

If Shepard was not indoctrinated when TIM controlled her, then TIM didn't control thourgh indoc. That was my point.

Javik can read minds thourgh mere touch. The prothean VIs Learned Shepard's languge by simply her being there. Obviously the catalyst is more advanced than protheans.

No, that's not when you become indoctriated nor whe he did. After he became indoctrinated he could sense the reapers not understand what they were saying  his will didn't change. He STILL FOUGHT BACK AFTER HE WAS INDOCTRIANTED..I'll post it...

When Grayson woke up, he was horrified to discover he was a prisoner in his own body. He couldsee and hear everything around him, but it seemed surreal, almost as if he was watching a projection on avid screen with the volume and brightness set way too high.He rolled over in the cot, spun to put his feet on the floor, stood up, and began to pace restlesslyabout the cell—but none of these actions came from his own volition. His body refused to respond to hiscommands; he was powerless to control his own actions. He had become a meat puppet, an instrumentof Reaper will.He briefly registered the fact that his crippled knee had somehow repaired itself overnight. Then hiseyes flickered downward, giving him a glimpse of his body, and his mind recoiled in disgust.He was being transformed. Repurposed. The implants in his brain had spread throughout his body.The self-replicating Reaper nanotechnology had woven itself into his muscles, sinews, and nerves,transforming him into a monstrous hybrid of synthetic and organic life. His flesh had become stretchedand semitranslucent. Beneath it he could see thin flexible tubes winding along the length of his limbs.Flickers of red and blue light pulsed along the tubes, the illumination bright enough to be visible throughhis opaque skin.Even though he was no longer in control of his body, he could feel that the cybernetics had made himboth faster and stronger. He was more aware of his surroundings; his senses were heightened to asupernatural level. The melding of man and machine had created a being that was physically superior toany evolutionary design.But that wasn’t the only change. He was also developing rudimentary biotic abilities beyond thosetemporarily granted by dosing up with red sand. He could sense his Reaper masters pushing and probing,eager to test the limits of his weak but ever-growing power.
(Page 59). The Reapers turned his body to face the shelf of provisions. Inside he felt a buildup of energy, like astatic charge increased a thousandfold. His hand rose, palm extended toward the ration kits. There was asudden jolt along the length of his arm, strong enough to send a flare of pain shooting up to Grayson’shelpless consciousness.The neat pile of carefully stacked rations was blown apart by the impact of a biotic push. Boxes shotup into the air, bouncing off the shelves and wall before clattering onto the floor.It was hardly an impressive display. Grayson had seen his own daughter lift a thousand-kilogram pieceof machinery and use it to crush a pair of Cerberus agents. The scattered ration packs weighed less thana kilogram each, and the impact hadn’t even been powerful enough to burst the seals keeping the foodinside fresh. But he knew his power would continue to grow, and he sensed the Reapers were pleased.Grayson lowered his arm, and it took him a full second before the significance of the action struck him.He had lowered his arm; not the Reapers—him!The biotic display must have temporarily weakened their control of his body. Recognizing that theirdomination of his will was not yet absolute was all the encouragement he needed to fight back.The whispers in his head grew to an angry roar as Grayson struggled to regain control of his physicalform. He shut them out, ignoring them as he focused all his energy on the simple act of taking a singlestep.His left foot rose in response, moving forward half a foot before coming back down to the floor. Thenhis right foot followed suit, setting off a chain reaction in Grayson’s body. He could literally feel eachindividual muscle tighten, then relax, as his mind reasserted its dominion over what was rightfully his.As he came back to himself, his body began to tremble. His mouth felt dry, his skin itchy. Herecognized the classic symptoms of withdrawal. The hit of red sand was wearing off, allowing him toregain his focus and concentration, his most valuable weapons against the aliens inside his head.
(Page 60). 
The Reapers were mounting a counterassault: pushing in on his thoughts, trying to twist and bend themto their control. But Grayson refused to surrender what he had fought so hard to regain. It was a battle tosave his very identity, and he was winning!He felt a rush of elation and adrenaline … and something else. He barely had time to realize what itwas before the warmth of another dose of red sand swept over him.His head began to swim in an ocean of narcotic bliss, and the Reapers seized the opportunity to wrestcontrol of his body away from him.Helpless, he could only watch from within as his body walked over to the cot and lay back down onthe bed. Lying there in a dust storm fugue, he struggled to understand what had just happened. Therewas only one explanation that made any sense.Cerberus was still watching him. Studying him. They knew he was resisting the Reapers; they haddosed him with concentrated red sand to weaken his resolve. Sometime during his previous high theymust have surgically implanted a device to allow them to remotely administer doses of the drug to keephim in a perpetual state of intoxication.It wouldn’t have been hard; a small radio-controlled dispenser under the skin that released the sanddirectly into his bloodstream would do the trick. At a soluble mixture of near one hundred percentconcentration, it would take only a few drops to send him flying each time. Eventually the supply in thedispenser would run out, but that didn’t give him hope: he knew Cerberus would just refill it.His eyes closed, shutting out the world. The Reapers needed him to rest; the transformation was still inprogress. They needed him to sleep, and so he did.
(Page 60). 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...


Not sure what you mean, can never understand the whispers/voices clearly can only guess what they say. The presence of the Nightmare-whispers during the The Illusive Man-Anderson-Citadel conversation is the odd part about it.

Shepard is not indoctrinated yet, the ending sequence would be the Indoctrination Attempt being played out in Shepard's mind/our perspective. If Shepard is successfully indoctrinated I'm sure we'll see all of the symptoms after the fact but for now we have our speculation.

The Catalyst we see can definitely be a hyper-advanced AI controlling the reapers, yes, but it's the fact that it yanks the image of the boy Shepard failed to save from his/her mind and uses it as well the boys voice and male/female Shepards. If it can take things out of Shepard's mind, what's to stop it from putting ideas in? Example, the flash forwards of Anderson picking Destroy and TIM picking control. The whole exchange is...odd.

Exactly. In the book retrubution, Grayson needed to hear the voices clearly and understand what they mean. Only then he became indoctrinated. Shepard didn't not need to understand the voices to be controlled. Thus, TIM didn't control through indoctrination, or at least the same indoctrination.

If Shepard was not indoctrinated when TIM controlled her, then TIM didn't control thourgh indoc. That was my point.

Javik can read minds thourgh mere touch. The prothean VIs Learned Shepard's languge by simply her being there. Obviously the catalyst is more advanced than protheans.

Interesting.

TIM's indoctrination of Shepard wasn't complete, otherwise it would have been Critical Mission Failure from the start of the conversation. He assumed control of most of Shepard's body, not the mind, so the "Nightmare Whispers" remain the way they are by your explanation.

If TIM didn't control Shepard's body via indoctrination (as per all that Sanctuary research) then what did he control him/her with?

Yes, as I said, it's possible the Catalyst AI is simply more advanced, but that still does not explain why it chose the image of the Boy from Earth. Why not use the image of Shepard's body since it already has the voice? Why not a squadmate that Shepard would trust? Instead it chooses to use a boy that is apparently central to Shepard's grief over losing Earth (reference: the Nightmares). Seems a cynical thing for it to do, maybe even some sort of trickery.

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.So was Grayson and Bensisa. They both were controled before understanding the voices. Even hereing the voices means indoctriantion.
2. Also, you confusing fully indoctrinated with indoctriation in general indoctriation. It come in stages and the person can have there own will. Even Benzia kept her own will and oposed the reapers control on her own underindoction.
3. You can't even give me proof the scene was real. If you can't, how can you tell me whats going on.

Yes, the symtons are indoctriantion, it's just that Shepard is not at the final stage of it. Understand that it comes in stages.

1. What? Grayson was only controlled AFTER understanding the voices. And from where you got that benezia didn't understand the voices?

2. But TIM controlled Shepard, didn't he? And Benezia could free herself to fully control over her actions. Not just talk and say what she wanted to say. Then she changed back and tried to kill Shepard. 

3. Because I see it happens. 

We also see Anderson and TIM activating the crucible

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 07:44 .

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.So was Grayson and Bensisa. They both were controled before understanding the voices. Even hereing the voices means indoctriantion.
2. Also, you confusing fully indoctrinated with indoctriation in general indoctriation. It come in stages and the person can have there own will. Even Benzia kept her own will and oposed the reapers control on her own underindoction.
3. You can't even give me proof the scene was real. If you can't, how can you tell me whats going on.

Yes, the symtons are indoctriantion, it's just that Shepard is not at the final stage of it. Understand that it comes in stages.

1. What? Grayson was only controlled AFTER understanding the voices. And from where you got that benezia didn't understand the voices?

2. But TIM controlled Shepard, didn't he? And Benezia could free herself to fully control over her actions. Not just talk and say what she wanted to say. Then she changed back and tried to kill Shepard. 

3. Because I see it happens. 

1. No, I just posted how it happen. He could nor understand the wisper and was indoctrianted with his will intact.
2. In doctriantion is a physical and psycoligical means of mind control. The reapers had to control her mind physicaly to control Benzia. She was like a puppet. She in an advance stage but her will was still her own. Thus Indortiaction with out giving in to whispers.
3.You facing a race of machines that can warp your perspective and your senses and you're telling me just becaus you see it happen means it's real? Give me proof.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 07:49 .

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

Like I said, the fact that the tech seems to work differently to the way it should do, is one of many inconsitencies in that scene that lead me to believe it's a dream. For one thing, indoctrination that fast should make Shepard brain dead, but it doesn't.

If it can read Shepard's mind, what else can it do?

[HellishFiend]

KingZayd wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

3. Because I see it happens. 

We also see Anderson and TIM activating the crucible

We also see organics and synthetics getting along, coexisting, and working towards common goals.

We also see several examples of attempts to Control things fail.

We also see several examples of attempts at Synthesis fail.

We also see proof that the "Catalyst" is manipulative and has ulterior motives.

Need I go on? The endings as we "see them happen" are complete contradictions to the entire trilogy. If you believe that, you might as well believe that Shepard is actually running through a dead forest and repeatedly watching the same boy burn in flames, just because you "see" it. 

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

You don't understand the voices clearly when your first indoctrianted. In fact, that only in the later stages. If you hear them at all you indoctrianted.

[Ageless Face]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Interesting.

TIM's indoctrination of Shepard wasn't complete, otherwise it would have been Critical Mission Failure from the start of the conversation. He assumed control of most of Shepard's body, not the mind, so the "Nightmare Whispers" remain the way they are by your explanation.

If TIM didn't control Shepard's body via indoctrination (as per all that Sanctuary research) then what did he control him/her with?

Yes, as I said, it's possible the Catalyst AI is simply more advanced, but that still does not explain why it chose the image of the Boy from Earth. Why not use the image of Shepard's body since it already has the voice? Why not a squadmate that Shepard would trust? Instead it chooses to use a boy that is apparently central to Shepard's grief over losing Earth (reference: the Nightmares). Seems a cynical thing for it to do, maybe even some sort of trickery.

I know, I'm brilliant .

TIM could have controlled Shepard, but then at the end Shepard could resist and shoot TIM quickly. Sure, it might be that his control was not complete, but it also means that there ARE other ways to control, even if the control is similar, it's still not quite the same.

Well, I don't know. He might have found other ways, perhaps he indoctrinate differently. But it's sure not the same as the reapers do.

Also to that I don't know. Might be because of symbolism. Shepard can still save the people on Earth. Shepard dreamed about the boy for a few months. The other deaths were only whispers to him/her.