553 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

You don't understand the voices clearly when your first indoctrianted. In fact, that only in the later stages. If you hear them at all you indoctrianted.

In the early stages, Shepard shouldn't be that easily controlled either. It's indoctrination tech.. but the details are.. off. Just like with most things that take place after Harbinger shoots us.

[Lord Goose]

If TIM didn't control Shepard's body via indoctrination (as per all that Sanctuary research) then what did he control him/her with?

His own ability, which supposedly should be able to control the Reapers.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Interesting.

TIM's indoctrination of Shepard wasn't complete, otherwise it would have been Critical Mission Failure from the start of the conversation. He assumed control of most of Shepard's body, not the mind, so the "Nightmare Whispers" remain the way they are by your explanation.

If TIM didn't control Shepard's body via indoctrination (as per all that Sanctuary research) then what did he control him/her with?

Yes, as I said, it's possible the Catalyst AI is simply more advanced, but that still does not explain why it chose the image of the Boy from Earth. Why not use the image of Shepard's body since it already has the voice? Why not a squadmate that Shepard would trust? Instead it chooses to use a boy that is apparently central to Shepard's grief over losing Earth (reference: the Nightmares). Seems a cynical thing for it to do, maybe even some sort of trickery.

I know, I'm brilliant .

TIM could have controlled Shepard, but then at the end Shepard could resist and shoot TIM quickly. Sure, it might be that his control was not complete, but it also means that there ARE other ways to control, even if the control is similar, it's still not quite the same.

Well, I don't know. He might have found other ways, perhaps he indoctrinate differently. But it's sure not the same as the reapers do.

Also to that I don't know. Might be because of symbolism. Shepard can still save the people on Earth. Shepard dreamed about the boy for a few months. The other deaths were only whispers to him/her. 

Speculation. Lots of Speculation. Everywhere.

As for the whispers, I keep seeing you mention that as evidence that Shepard is NOT indoctrinated since he/she can't understand them. But what most of us are saying is that Shepard is BEING indoctrinated and therefore would NOT understand the whispers anyway. On top of that, by your own arguement shouldn't the presence of the Whispers be a symptom of an indoctrination attempt? Even if it's not a successful attempt. If that's the case, then the whispers you hear in Nightmares #2 and #3 could make them failed attempts to indoctrinate Shepard...right?

[Lord Goose]

We also see several examples of attempts to Control things fail.

We also see several examples of attempts at Synthesis fail.

We also know that all attempts to destroy Reapers failed. The cycle was unbreakeable for billions of years, and now you think you can stop the Reapers, when countless civilizations failed?

We also see proof that the "Catalyst" is manipulative and has ulterior motives.

Its your personal interpretation.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Interesting.

TIM's indoctrination of Shepard wasn't complete, otherwise it would have been Critical Mission Failure from the start of the conversation. He assumed control of most of Shepard's body, not the mind, so the "Nightmare Whispers" remain the way they are by your explanation.

If TIM didn't control Shepard's body via indoctrination (as per all that Sanctuary research) then what did he control him/her with?

Yes, as I said, it's possible the Catalyst AI is simply more advanced, but that still does not explain why it chose the image of the Boy from Earth. Why not use the image of Shepard's body since it already has the voice? Why not a squadmate that Shepard would trust? Instead it chooses to use a boy that is apparently central to Shepard's grief over losing Earth (reference: the Nightmares). Seems a cynical thing for it to do, maybe even some sort of trickery.

I know, I'm brilliant .

TIM could have controlled Shepard, but then at the end Shepard could resist and shoot TIM quickly. Sure, it might be that his control was not complete, but it also means that there ARE other ways to control, even if the control is similar, it's still not quite the same.

Well, I don't know. He might have found other ways, perhaps he indoctrinate differently. But it's sure not the same as the reapers do.

Also to that I don't know. Might be because of symbolism. Shepard can still save the people on Earth. Shepard dreamed about the boy for a few months. The other deaths were only whispers to him/her. 

How would the form of indoctriation TIM using be different form the reapers if everything the reapers use for  indoctriantion TIM is using?

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...


We also see Anderson and TIM activating the crucible

Yeah, well for the thrid question I have no real answer. Can't prove it's real as much as I can't prove life is real.

[Lord Goose]

How would the form of indoctriation TIM using be different form the reapers if everything the reapers use for indoctriantion TIM is using?

It is really simple.

TIM was going to control the Reapers. Reapers are immune to their own Indoctrination. So, his abilities should be different.

If you had to poison someone, who is immune to its own poison, you can only make different poison.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

We also see several examples of attempts to Control things fail.

We also see several examples of attempts at Synthesis fail.

We also know that all attempts to destroy Reapers failed. The cycle was unbreakeable for billions of years, and now you think you can stop the Reapers, when countless civilizations failed?

We also see proof that the "Catalyst" is manipulative and has ulterior motives.

Its your personal interpretation.

apparently BECAUSE of people trying to control the Reapers. I'd also blame the idiots that decided the best thing to add to an anti-reaper weapon was a synthesis mode (if indeed it's really there) . How are you going to defend yourself if you're overcomplicating your weapon with things that don't hurt the reapers?

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 08:02 .

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

You don't understand the voices clearly when your first indoctrianted. In fact, that only in the later stages. If you hear them at all you indoctrianted.

In the early stages, Shepard shouldn't be that easily controlled either. It's indoctrination tech.. but the details are.. off. Just like with most things that take place after Harbinger shoots us.

Shepard is in the early stages of it before Harbinger's scene came up...AKA the dreams.
It only advance the way it did because TIM was there and imposed it. Remeber, reapers can control how quickly a person can become indoctrianted and TIM has full understanding of it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 08:02 .

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...


We also know that all attempts to destroy Reapers failed. The cycle was unbreakeable for billions of years, and now you think you can stop the Reapers, when countless civilizations failed?
 

Excuse me, but how is that any different from thinking you can Control the Reapers, when countless civilizations have also failed to do that? Funny you should only follow that particular logic when it's convenient for you.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

How would the form of indoctriation TIM using be different form the reapers if everything the reapers use for indoctriantion TIM is using?

It is really simple.

TIM was going to control the Reapers. Reapers are immune to their own Indoctrination. So, his abilities should be different.

If you had to poison someone, who is immune to its own poison, you can only make different poison.

Are they immune to indoctrination? Or is that just pure conjecture? How does TIM come to the conclusion that the Reapers are immune to it? How does TIM know they aren't immune to this form? If they aren't immune to this form, why doesn't he tell Shepard  before he blows his brains out?

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

How would the form of indoctriation TIM using be different form the reapers if everything the reapers use for indoctriantion TIM is using?

It is really simple.

TIM was going to control the Reapers. Reapers are immune to their own Indoctrination. So, his abilities should be different.

If you had to poison someone, who is immune to its own poison, you can only make different poison.

That's not a reason why it would be different at all. TIM was going to used the crucible to boost his power. Remeber, it's stated to be exactly the same except for a difference of power, this was stated in Scatuary.

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

How would the form of indoctriation TIM using be different form the reapers if everything the reapers use for indoctriantion TIM is using?

It is really simple.

TIM was going to control the Reapers. Reapers are immune to their own Indoctrination. So, his abilities should be different.

If you had to poison someone, who is immune to its own poison, you can only make different poison.

Are they immune to indoctrination? Or is that just pure conjecture? How does TIM come to the conclusion that the Reapers are immune to it? How does TIM know they aren't immune to this form? If they aren't immune to this form, why doesn't he tell Shepard  before he blows his brains out?

Meaning ,lord goose, you just stated a baseless assumption.

[llbountyhunter]

dreman9999 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

How would the form of indoctriation TIM using be different form the reapers if everything the reapers use for indoctriantion TIM is using?

It is really simple.

TIM was going to control the Reapers. Reapers are immune to their own Indoctrination. So, his abilities should be different.

If you had to poison someone, who is immune to its own poison, you can only make different poison.

That's not a reason why it would be different at all. TIM was going to used the crucible to boost his power. Remeber, it's stated to be exactly the same except for a difference of power, this was stated in Scatuary.

No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Lol.

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

You don't understand the voices clearly when your first indoctrianted. In fact, that only in the later stages. If you hear them at all you indoctrianted.

In the early stages, Shepard shouldn't be that easily controlled either. It's indoctrination tech.. but the details are.. off. Just like with most things that take place after Harbinger shoots us.

Shepard is in the early stages of it before Harbinger's scene came up...AKA the dreams.
It only advance the way it did because TIM was there and imposed it. Remeber, reapers can control how quickly a person can become indoctrianted and TIM has full understanding of it.

This is where we disagree. Yes, Shepard is in the early stages before Harbinger. The way I see it, Harbinger's attack leaves Shepard unconscious. Then while he's unconscious (and probably barely alive) he dreams again, and the indoctrination has grown even stronger since his last dream, and it will probably grown even stronger now by an amount that probably depends on what he chooses in this dream (which says things about his personality, e.g. how stubborn he is).

TIM might still be around on the Citadel, or he might have been discarded by the Reapers, but that scene is riddled with inconsistencies.

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...

Like I said, the fact that the tech seems to work differently to the way it should do, is one of many inconsitencies in that scene that lead me to believe it's a dream. For one thing, indoctrination that fast should make Shepard brain dead, but it doesn't.

If it can read Shepard's mind, what else can it do?

Perhaps. But reaper technology is not the only technology that can be built. It can be true that nothing is real and TIM never learned how to indoctrinate. But I still think it can be possible he did learn to control in a different way. Speculations everywhere.

I guess the catalyst can also control an army of huge machines...

[Lord Goose]

Funny you should only follow that particular logic when it's convenient for you.

It was you who said, that attempts to control or synthesise fail. I just pointed out, that destroy attempts also tend to fail.

Are they immune to indoctrination?

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

Given that Reapers are fine after many years in direct contact with Reaper technology, its safe to assume so.

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

If TIM didn't control Shepard's body via indoctrination (as per all that Sanctuary research) then what did he control him/her with?

His own ability, which supposedly should be able to control the Reapers.

1. His own abillity is from reaper tech intented to control things with indoctriantion.
2.He then was going to use the crucible to boost his power.

So, it's still indoctriantion.

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

Funny you should only follow that particular logic when it's convenient for you.

It was you who said, that attempts to control or synthesise fail. I just pointed out, that destroy attempts also tend to fail.

You're ignoring the fact that the very core values behind Control and Synthesis are thematically opposed to practically every word that comes out of any characters mouth across the entire trilogy. 

In any case, you can continue to believe whatever you want, as far as I'm concerned. I just think that you're going to feel really silly if you dont realize how little sense it makes to actually PICK Control or Synthesis before the EC comes out. Aside from what you "see" as a result, its the very act of picking them that should be contradicting every fiber in your being as Commander Shepard. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 15 juin 2012 - 08:18 .

[Lord Goose]

No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Do Reapers do any kind of research about indoctrination? Do they upgrade themselves? We have no evidence, that they do. On the contrary, it seems like they didn't changed a bit since Prothean times.
TIM in turn "dedicated his life" to study the Reapers.

[Erield]

llbountyhunter wrote...

No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Alternate means of research and development can yield a wide array of results.  So, yes, it's not inconceivable that TIM found a different  way to do something than the Reapers; the Reapers, after all, haven't progressed or advanced in a billion or so years.  TIM wasn't able to make Shepard or Anderson think the way he did; being able to control one's thoughts is going to be much more effective long-term than just controlling their bodies.  TIM didn't even have full control over that; otherwise, he wouldn't have got shot.

[Makrys]

Lord Goose wrote...

We also see several examples of attempts to Control things fail.

We also see several examples of attempts at Synthesis fail.

We also know that all attempts to destroy Reapers failed. The cycle was unbreakeable for billions of years, and now you think you can stop the Reapers, when countless civilizations failed?

We also see proof that the "Catalyst" is manipulative and has ulterior motives.

Its your personal interpretation.

Funny you say that. The Protheans were very close to finishing the Crucible and destroying the Reapers. Know why they didn't succeed? Because a sect of their leadership instead decided that the best way to win was to CONTROL the Reapers. These agents were indoctrinated and didn't even know it. They halted the empire's plans with the crucible, and delayed them enough for the Reaper's to arrive and obliterate them. Control has been foreshadowed as the absolute wrong way to go. It is Reaper manipulation. Nothing more, nothing less. 

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Like I said, the fact that the tech seems to work differently to the way it should do, is one of many inconsitencies in that scene that lead me to believe it's a dream. For one thing, indoctrination that fast should make Shepard brain dead, but it doesn't.

If it can read Shepard's mind, what else can it do?

Perhaps. But reaper technology is not the only technology that can be built. It can be true that nothing is real and TIM never learned how to indoctrinate. But I still think it can be possible he did learn to control in a different way. Speculations everywhere.

I guess the catalyst can also control an army of huge machines...

No, I think TIM learnt to indoctrinate. What we see at Sanctuary and Cerberus HQ suggest so rather strongly. I find it highly improbable that TIM decided "Indoctrination's pretty sweet, but no wait, let's look into a completely different technique that I can use on Shepard instead of indoctrination for some arbitrary reason. Also, let's leave tons of evidence pointing to my studies of indoctrination, but let's leave no trace of this other technique."

If the Starchild can read your mind, it's not so absurd that it can make you see what it wants you to see? As in, the step from a read-only to read+write capability is not that great is it? Also, since it can control those machines that have organic minds, it could very plausibly use the same technique on Shepard, if indeed it even exists.

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He was indoctrinated when he was hearing the voices. Indoctrination leads to being controlled, but indoctrination=/= control. TIM's using indoctrination tech as that's what he's been studying. The fact that it works strangely is one of many inconsistencies post-Harbinger.

The VI's learned the language after observing Shepard and co. for a while. I suspect it's from listening to the conversation between them?

Yet the effects were not the same as indoctrination. Shepard didn't hear the voices clearly, s/he could talk but at the same time not control her/his body. Even if the tools are the same, TIM didn't control in the same way the reapers do. He didn't indoctrinate Shepard, at least not in the original way.

Right, only by obsering he learned it. And like I said, Javik can read mind only by touch. And the catalyst is even more advanced.It's highly possible he could have just read Shepard's mind.

You don't understand the voices clearly when your first indoctrianted. In fact, that only in the later stages. If you hear them at all you indoctrianted.

In the early stages, Shepard shouldn't be that easily controlled either. It's indoctrination tech.. but the details are.. off. Just like with most things that take place after Harbinger shoots us.

Shepard is in the early stages of it before Harbinger's scene came up...AKA the dreams.
It only advance the way it did because TIM was there and imposed it. Remeber, reapers can control how quickly a person can become indoctrianted and TIM has full understanding of it.

This is where we disagree. Yes, Shepard is in the early stages before Harbinger. The way I see it, Harbinger's attack leaves Shepard unconscious. Then while he's unconscious (and probably barely alive) he dreams again, and the indoctrination has grown even stronger since his last dream, and it will probably grown even stronger now by an amount that probably depends on what he chooses in this dream (which says things about his personality, e.g. how stubborn he is).

TIM might still be around on the Citadel, or he might have been discarded by the Reapers, but that scene is riddled with inconsistencies.

We have no proof what real of not. Say if he is dreaming of not is baseless no matter what. I appoch the theory on 3 bases.
It's a dream.
It's a hallucination.
It's the reaper trying to influence Shepard via suggetion only.

Being that we have no proof he is awake or not, all 3 of the theories are logical. That all open up to the other anyway.

[jijeebo]

llbountyhunter wrote...


No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Lol.

TIM sort of gained control of Shep and Andersons motor function for like 3 minutes from 5 feet away... With zero ability to influence their thoughts or opinions.


I somehow doubt Harbinger is going to be jealous.