553 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Like I said, the fact that the tech seems to work differently to the way it should do, is one of many inconsitencies in that scene that lead me to believe it's a dream. For one thing, indoctrination that fast should make Shepard brain dead, but it doesn't.

If it can read Shepard's mind, what else can it do?

Perhaps. But reaper technology is not the only technology that can be built. It can be true that nothing is real and TIM never learned how to indoctrinate. But I still think it can be possible he did learn to control in a different way. Speculations everywhere.

I guess the catalyst can also control an army of huge machines...

But what TIM is using has been shown to be purly reaper tech used to control indoctriantion. Why would it be something else if what it is is known?

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Funny you should only follow that particular logic when it's convenient for you.

It was you who said, that attempts to control or synthesise fail. I just pointed out, that destroy attempts also tend to fail.

Are they immune to indoctrination?

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or years."

Given that Reapers are fine after many years in direct contact with Reaper technology, its safe to assume so.

A) That's assuming the Reapers are trying to indoctrinate one another, or they can't help sending the indoctrination waves to each other.

I imagine the Reaper artifacts that indoctrinate aren't being used by the Reapers on themselves.

C) Reaper minds are immense. It would take a very long time for the indoctrination to damage all that. That said, we have no idea what "Higher mental functioning" is to such a mind. For all we know, the Reapers could be mentally retarded compared to their true potential. This would certainly be relevant if say, their controller (if indeed there is one) is using indoctrination on them.

[KingZayd]

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Lol.

TIM sort of gained control of Shep and Andersons motor function for like 3 minutes from 5 feet away... With zero ability to influence their thoughts or opinions.


I somehow doubt Harbinger is going to be jealous.

Considering all they needed was to stop Shepard long enough to shoot him in the face, and this worked instantly. Yes I imagine Harby would be rather jealous (or feel really stupid), since Shepard's been a bit of a nuisance all this time.

[Ageless Face]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speculation. Lots of Speculation. Everywhere.

As for the whispers, I keep seeing you mention that as evidence that Shepard is NOT indoctrinated since he/she can't understand them. But what most of us are saying is that Shepard is BEING indoctrinated and therefore would NOT understand the whispers anyway. On top of that, by your own arguement shouldn't the presence of the Whispers be a symptom of an indoctrination attempt? Even if it's not a successful attempt. If that's the case, then the whispers you hear in Nightmares #2 and #3 could make them failed attempts to indoctrinate Shepard...right?

Never meant to imply that a lot of what I'm saying is not speculations.

What I mean is TIM is not using the same method as the repaers. TIM DOES control Shepard. It's not in the process of control, it is control. Just a different kind. He may be indoctrinating Shepard, but not in the same way as the reapers.

Aren't the whispers in the dreams are of Shepard's fallen comrads? The whispers of indoctrination are of the reapers, if I'm not mistaken.

[llbountyhunter]

Erield wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Alternate means of research and development can yield a wide array of results.  So, yes, it's not inconceivable that TIM found a different  way to do something than the Reapers; the Reapers, after all, haven't progressed or advanced in a billion or so years.  TIM wasn't able to make Shepard or Anderson think the way he did; being able to control one's thoughts is going to be much more effective long-term than just controlling their bodies.  TIM didn't even have full control over that; otherwise, he wouldn't have got shot.

They have progressed.... they take in information from every cycle. and TIMs methods wouldnt be too different because he used indoctrination as a basis.

Still extremly unlikely. 

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...


We also see Anderson and TIM activating the crucible

Yeah, well for the thrid question I have no real answer. Can't prove it's real as much as I can't prove life is real.

Yeah i thought it was a silly question. We can't prove reality. That said, I have often thought it'd be hilarious (well partly)  if at some point, the world's leading scientists decided that the laws of Physics are so arbitrary that the universe can't be real and that therefore we are probably inside something resembling a computer program.

[llbountyhunter]

KingZayd wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


No no no, obviously TIM created a better form of comtrol than the reapers in a matter of months. Brilliant TIM.

Lol.

TIM sort of gained control of Shep and Andersons motor function for like 3 minutes from 5 feet away... With zero ability to influence their thoughts or opinions.


I somehow doubt Harbinger is going to be jealous.

Considering all they needed was to stop Shepard long enough to shoot him in the face, and this worked instantly. Yes I imagine Harby would be rather jealous (or feel really stupid), since Shepard's been a bit of a nuisance all this time.

Not the mention that apperantly TIM didnt use nanites or caused any mental decay in shepard or anderson..

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

But what TIM is using has been shown to be purly reaper tech used to control indoctriantion. Why would it be something else if what it is is known?

Different method of indoctrination, perhaps indoctrination is simply the most effective way to control, but TIM can only use a different type of control that is presented by the reapers. Maybe TIM can only be a reaper to use the same way to indoc. The indoctrination he used is weaker than a reaper's. 

Like I said, it's only my line og thought. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct on that.

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But what TIM is using has been shown to be purly reaper tech used to control indoctriantion. Why would it be something else if what it is is known?

Different method of indoctrination, perhaps indoctrination is simply the most effective way to control, but TIM can only use a different type of control that is presented by the reapers. Maybe TIM can only be a reaper to use the same way to indoc. The indoctrination he used is weaker than a reaper's. 

Like I said, it's only my line og thought. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct on that.

Trying to explain the endingas they are requires space magic or making huge leaps of speculation.

IT uses neither.

[Makrys]

*sigh* Once again, TIM can only control HUSKS. Not people. And even him controlling husks is never confirmed. The whole point of TIM's plot in ME3 is to showcase how the Reaper's manipulate those they have indoctrinated. TIM thinks can control them, when in actuality the Reaper's are just controlling him. No one can control the Reapers. I mean how many times has this been established in the lore? Its pretty obvious.

If you think you can control them, its pretty much a direct sign you're indoctrinated.

[Lord Goose]

You're ignoring the fact that the very core values behind Control and Synthesis are thematically opposed to practically every word that comes out of any characters mouth across the entire trilogy.

I find Control option fitting to description of War Hero psychological profile.

War Hero: Early in your military career you found yourself facing an overwhelming enemy force. You risked your own life to save your fellow soldiers and defeat the enemy despite the impossible odds. Your bravery and heroism have earned you medals and recognition from the Alliance fleet. The War Hero almost single-handedly repelled an attack by batarian slavers on Elysium.

Saving fellow soldiers by choosing option, which clearly should result in your death.

But I think I should replay the game to refresh my memory on the subject.

Control has been foreshadowed as the absolute wrong way to go. It is Reaper manipulation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Protheans didn't succeded because rogue faction sabotaged the Crucible. If they managed to complete it, and use it to control the Reapers, it would have been victory for them.

[llbountyhunter]

Wait.... doesn't the catalyst say that TIM couldn't control them because the reapers were already controlling him?


So he's lying now?!

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 15 juin 2012 - 08:38 .

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

You're ignoring the fact that the very core values behind Control and Synthesis are thematically opposed to practically every word that comes out of any characters mouth across the entire trilogy.

I find Control option fitting to description of War Hero psychological profile.

War Hero: Early in your military career you found yourself facing an overwhelming enemy force. You risked your own life to save your fellow soldiers and defeat the enemy despite the impossible odds. Your bravery and heroism have earned you medals and recognition from the Alliance fleet. The War Hero almost single-handedly repelled an attack by batarian slavers on Elysium.

Saving fellow soldiers by choosing option, which clearly should result in your death.

But I think I should replay the game to refresh my memory on the subject.

Control has been foreshadowed as the absolute wrong way to go. It is Reaper manipulation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Protheans didn't succeded because rogue faction sabotaged the Crucible. If they managed to complete it, and use it to control the Reapers, it would have been victory for them.

risking, not sacrificing , destroy risks Shepard's life while saving the soldiers

[Lord Goose]

*sigh* Once again, TIM can only control HUSKS. Not people

Huskified human soldiers. Unlike husks, they still capable of speaking, making rational decision on their own, etc. Some even write diaries.

TIM thinks can control them, when in actuality the Reaper's are just controlling him.

In that case, fighting on the Sanctuary would be impossible. While we clearly see battle between Cerberus troops and husks.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HagarIshay wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Speculation. Lots of Speculation. Everywhere.

As for the whispers, I keep seeing you mention that as evidence that Shepard is NOT indoctrinated since he/she can't understand them. But what most of us are saying is that Shepard is BEING indoctrinated and therefore would NOT understand the whispers anyway. On top of that, by your own arguement shouldn't the presence of the Whispers be a symptom of an indoctrination attempt? Even if it's not a successful attempt. If that's the case, then the whispers you hear in Nightmares #2 and #3 could make them failed attempts to indoctrinate Shepard...right?

Never meant to imply that a lot of what I'm saying is not speculations.

What I mean is TIM is not using the same method as the repaers. TIM DOES control Shepard. It's not in the process of control, it is control. Just a different kind. He may be indoctrinating Shepard, but not in the same way as the reapers.

Aren't the whispers in the dreams are of Shepard's fallen comrads? The whispers of indoctrination are of the reapers, if I'm not mistaken.

Ah-ha, alright thank you for the clarifications. Now then, TIm is using some kind of control/indoctrination technology based on the Reaper's own technology, we even see a video log him before a surgical procedure to implant something into him. After everything we've already seen at Sanctuary and other video logs, it's a safe assumption that he's implanting himself with Cerberus tech (based on Reaper tech) of some kind more than likely an indoctrination....emitter? Booster? something along those lines. Keep in mind there's no doubt that TIM is indoctrinated by the Reapers at this point, and if he's a Reaper thrall he can emit an indoctrination signal FOR the Reapers, not impossible they just hijacked his implants to boost their own indoctrination signal. It's reverse engineered Reaper tech, must be similar to the Reaper's own technology for that fact alone.

As for the Nightmares, yes you hear the voices of Shepards fallen comrades but that's not what I was refering to. I was refering the illegible whispers you can hear in the background, video here. You can also hear a lot of Reaper-like sounds. Now, you can interpret those whispers as Bioware means to creep us, the player, the hell out. Or a way to convey Shepard's angst/guilt. BUT, we hear the same Nightmare whispers on the Citadel when TIM shows up and first takes contorl of Shepard. So, that leads some of us to link the dreams to as indoctrination attempts, or a clue to an overall progressive indoctrination attempt all leading up to the Beam run.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

*sigh* Once again, TIM can only control HUSKS. Not people

Huskified human soldiers. Unlike husks, they still capable of speaking, making rational decision on their own, etc. Some even write diaries.

TIM thinks can control them, when in actuality the Reaper's are just controlling him.

In that case, fighting on the Sanctuary would be impossible. While we clearly see battle between Cerberus troops and husks.

Well the either the catalysit or TIM are lying. or both.

Either way this helps IT, and pits another hole in the current endings.

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...

No, I think TIM learnt to indoctrinate. What we see at Sanctuary and Cerberus HQ suggest so rather strongly. I find it highly improbable that TIM decided "Indoctrination's pretty sweet, but no wait, let's look into a completely different technique that I can use on Shepard instead of indoctrination for some arbitrary reason. Also, let's leave tons of evidence pointing to my studies of indoctrination, but let's leave no trace of this other technique."

If the Starchild can read your mind, it's not so absurd that it can make you see what it wants you to see? As in, the step from a read-only to read+write capability is not that great is it? Also, since it can control those machines that have organic minds, it could very plausibly use the same technique on Shepard, if indeed it even exists.

Well, it might not be very likely. However Shepard is not controlled as any other indoctrinated. Shepard is very much aware of what is happening. and can control her/himself more. It might mean that TIM's indoctrination devices are weaker. It might also mean that there are multiple ways to indoctrinate someone, TIM used a different method. 

[Lord Goose]

risking, not sacrificing , destroy risks Shepard's life while saving the soldiers

Still, it's good parallel for me. Risking your own life means, that you're willing to sacrifice yourself for your allies.

While destroy sounds more like Ruthless.

The Ruthless character sent 3/4ths of his/her unit to its death and murdered surrendering batarians on Torfan.

[Makrys]

Lord Goose wrote...

*sigh* Once again, TIM can only control HUSKS. Not people

Huskified human soldiers. Unlike husks, they still capable of speaking, making rational decision on their own, etc. Some even write diaries.

TIM thinks can control them, when in actuality the Reaper's are just controlling him.

In that case, fighting on the Sanctuary would be impossible. While we clearly see battle between Cerberus troops and husks.

Yes, those soldier's were husks. Shepard is not. TIM can not control people.

That's somewhat obvious, is it not? TIM did not KNOW he was being controlled, and so therefore assigned the base to be defended. That's the whole point of indoctrination, YOU DON'T KNOW THEY'RE IN YOUR MIND. And at this point, they hadn't fully indoctrinated him yet. So, he still maintained some free will. They had simply twisted his mind enough to make him think control was the best option.

[Makrys]

Lord Goose wrote...

You're ignoring the fact that the very core values behind Control and Synthesis are thematically opposed to practically every word that comes out of any characters mouth across the entire trilogy.

I find Control option fitting to description of War Hero psychological profile.

War Hero: Early in your military career you found yourself facing an overwhelming enemy force. You risked your own life to save your fellow soldiers and defeat the enemy despite the impossible odds. Your bravery and heroism have earned you medals and recognition from the Alliance fleet. The War Hero almost single-handedly repelled an attack by batarian slavers on Elysium.

Saving fellow soldiers by choosing option, which clearly should result in your death.

But I think I should replay the game to refresh my memory on the subject.

Control has been foreshadowed as the absolute wrong way to go. It is Reaper manipulation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Protheans didn't succeded because rogue faction sabotaged the Crucible. If they managed to complete it, and use it to control the Reapers, it would have been victory for them.

The rogue faction were the ones who thought they could control the Reapers! The equivalent of Cerberus in this cycle. *facepalm*

Modifié par Makrys, 15 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

No, I think TIM learnt to indoctrinate. What we see at Sanctuary and Cerberus HQ suggest so rather strongly. I find it highly improbable that TIM decided "Indoctrination's pretty sweet, but no wait, let's look into a completely different technique that I can use on Shepard instead of indoctrination for some arbitrary reason. Also, let's leave tons of evidence pointing to my studies of indoctrination, but let's leave no trace of this other technique."

If the Starchild can read your mind, it's not so absurd that it can make you see what it wants you to see? As in, the step from a read-only to read+write capability is not that great is it? Also, since it can control those machines that have organic minds, it could very plausibly use the same technique on Shepard, if indeed it even exists.

Well, it might not be very likely. However Shepard is not controlled as any other indoctrinated. Shepard is very much aware of what is happening. and can control her/himself more. It might mean that TIM's indoctrination devices are weaker. It might also mean that there are multiple ways to indoctrinate someone, TIM used a different method. 

That's true, TIM doesnt use any known form of indoctrination ..... because its not real.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 15 juin 2012 - 08:46 .

[Lord Goose]

Well the either the catalysit or TIM are lying. or both.

You're missing my point.
TIM is indoctrinated.
His troops are not. What's why, they could fight with Reaper forces, when it doesn't goes against his orders.

Basically, vassal of my vassal.

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...


Trying to explain the endingas they are requires space magic or making huge leaps of speculation.

IT uses neither.

So I should never try to interperate the ending without thinking it was all an hellucination? Sure, it will explain A LOT. And if BioWare planned IT, then I'm just beating my head against the wall.

However, if BioWare didn't plan the IT, I might as well try and speculate, no?

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But what TIM is using has been shown to be purly reaper tech used to control indoctriantion. Why would it be something else if what it is is known?

Different method of indoctrination, perhaps indoctrination is simply the most effective way to control, but TIM can only use a different type of control that is presented by the reapers. Maybe TIM can only be a reaper to use the same way to indoc. The indoctrination he used is weaker than a reaper's. 

Like I said, it's only my line og thought. I'm not saying I'm 100% correct on that.

Proof that it's different? Because based onthe plot it's the same.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Well the either the catalysit or TIM are lying. or both.

You're missing my point.
TIM is indoctrinated.
His troops are not. What's why, they could fight with Reaper forces, when it doesn't goes against his orders.

Basically, vassal of my vassal.

Because TIM doesnt think hes indoctrinated,.... just like everyone else whi is indoctrinated.... not that difficult to understand.