553 réponses à ce sujet

[Makrys]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Please, show how they are differnet for one another.(I know you would be able to do it with out being wrong.0

*Sigh* Again? REALLY?

Whispers that Shepard can't understand while being controlled. Different than what we learned in the book Retrubution.

Shepard can speak like him/herself but all the other parts of the body is being controlled. Never happens in indoctrination.


It can mean that TIM is using a differnt method. It can also mean that Shepard is hallucinating, but I personally don't believe it. It can also mean other things that I didn't think about yet.

TIM cannot control Shepard. So, its a hallucination. 

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Funny, you sound exactly like Saren. 

Just sayin'....

Excuse me? 

Why? 

Shepard is speaking her/his mind when being controlled by TIM, and don't just do what TIM says without any question, right?

What exactly have I said that makes me sound like Saren here?

So did Benzia and Grayson speak there mind. But your missing one thing. Did you speak your mind to the starchild?

[dreman9999]

Makrys wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

*sigh* Once again, TIM can only control HUSKS. Not people

Huskified human soldiers. Unlike husks, they still capable of speaking, making rational decision on their own, etc. Some even write diaries.

TIM thinks can control them, when in actuality the Reaper's are just controlling him.

In that case, fighting on the Sanctuary would be impossible. While we clearly see battle between Cerberus troops and husks.

Yes, those soldier's were husks. Shepard is not. TIM can not control people.

That's somewhat obvious, is it not? TIM did not KNOW he was being controlled, and so therefore assigned the base to be defended. That's the whole point of indoctrination, YOU DON'T KNOW THEY'RE IN YOUR MIND. And at this point, they hadn't fully indoctrinated him yet. So, he still maintained some free will. They had simply twisted his mind enough to make him think control was the best option.

Husk's don't hae wills The Cerberus Soldier clear have wills...They are not husk.

They are most definitely indoctrinated.

No one is arguing that.

They are husks. I fail to see how they have free will. That is never evidenced. They do exactly as they're told. Just like husks. They never exemplified any free will. They were essentially early examples of a husk. Walking, talking husks. This was showcased on Mars.

The fact they can talk, plan, give orders, use tactics, and use advance machines says they still have a majority of there free will and are not husk.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 09:16 .

[Ageless Face]

Makrys wrote...

TIM cannot control Shepard. So, its a hallucination. 

Maybe. But I don't believe it is hallucination.  

[Lord Goose]

Its part of the illusion the Reapers have cast on TIM. Do you really think if the soldiers didn't fight the husks, that TIM would believe he could control them?

It was said in game, what Cerberus and husks are fighting each other. Not by TIM (who is actually done with it), but by your own team. If that was a Reaper ruse, well, prove it.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Please, show how they are differnet for one another.(I know you would be able to do it with out being wrong.0

*Sigh* Again? REALLY?

Whispers that Shepard can't understand while being controlled. Different than what we learned in the book Retrubution.

Shepard can speak like him/herself but all the other parts of the body is being controlled. Never happens in indoctrination.


It can mean that TIM is using a differnt method. It can also mean that Shepard is hallucinating, but I personally don't believe it. It can also mean other things that I didn't think about yet.

1.Benzia never has her will change when she is indoctriantated. That allown counter you point. She even helps you.
2.I guess I have to post this agein...
Thi is form ME:retruibution. This is Grayson resisting after being indoctrinated...

When Grayson woke up, he was horrified to discover he was a prisoner in his own body. He couldsee and hear everything around him, but it seemed surreal, almost as if he was watching a projection on avid screen with the volume and brightness set way too high.He rolled over in the cot, spun to put his feet on the floor, stood up, and began to pace restlesslyabout the cell—but none of these actions came from his own volition. His body refused to respond to hiscommands; he was powerless to control his own actions. He had become a meat puppet, an instrumentof Reaper will.He briefly registered the fact that his crippled knee had somehow repaired itself overnight. Then hiseyes flickered downward, giving him a glimpse of his body, and his mind recoiled in disgust.He was being transformed. Repurposed. The implants in his brain had spread throughout his body.The self-replicating Reaper nanotechnology had woven itself into his muscles, sinews, and nerves,transforming him into a monstrous hybrid of synthetic and organic life. His flesh had become stretchedand semitranslucent. Beneath it he could see thin flexible tubes winding along the length of his limbs.Flickers of red and blue light pulsed along the tubes, the illumination bright enough to be visible throughhis opaque skin.Even though he was no longer in control of his body, he could feel that the cybernetics had made himboth faster and stronger. He was more aware of his surroundings; his senses were heightened to asupernatural level. The melding of man and machine had created a being that was physically superior toany evolutionary design.But that wasn’t the only change. He was also developing rudimentary biotic abilities beyond thosetemporarily granted by dosing up with red sand. He could sense his Reaper masters pushing and probing,eager to test the limits of his weak but ever-growing power.
(Page 59). The Reapers turned his body to face the shelf of provisions. Inside he felt a buildup of energy, like astatic charge increased a thousandfold. His hand rose, palm extended toward the ration kits. There was asudden jolt along the length of his arm, strong enough to send a flare of pain shooting up to Grayson’shelpless consciousness.The neat pile of carefully stacked rations was blown apart by the impact of a biotic push. Boxes shotup into the air, bouncing off the shelves and wall before clattering onto the floor.It was hardly an impressive display. Grayson had seen his own daughter lift a thousand-kilogram pieceof machinery and use it to crush a pair of Cerberus agents. The scattered ration packs weighed less thana kilogram each, and the impact hadn’t even been powerful enough to burst the seals keeping the foodinside fresh. But he knew his power would continue to grow, and he sensed the Reapers were pleased.Grayson lowered his arm, and it took him a full second before the significance of the action struck him.He had lowered his arm; not the Reapers—him!The biotic display must have temporarily weakened their control of his body. Recognizing that theirdomination of his will was not yet absolute was all the encouragement he needed to fight back.The whispers in his head grew to an angry roar as Grayson struggled to regain control of his physicalform. He shut them out, ignoring them as he focused all his energy on the simple act of taking a singlestep.His left foot rose in response, moving forward half a foot before coming back down to the floor. Thenhis right foot followed suit, setting off a chain reaction in Grayson’s body. He could literally feel eachindividual muscle tighten, then relax, as his mind reasserted its dominion over what was rightfully his.As he came back to himself, his body began to tremble. His mouth felt dry, his skin itchy. Herecognized the classic symptoms of withdrawal. The hit of red sand was wearing off, allowing him toregain his focus and concentration, his most valuable weapons against the aliens inside his head.
(Page 60). 
The Reapers were mounting a counterassault: pushing in on his thoughts, trying to twist and bend themto their control. But Grayson refused to surrender what he had fought so hard to regain. It was a battle tosave his very identity, and he was winning!He felt a rush of elation and adrenaline … and something else. He barely had time to realize what itwas before the warmth of another dose of red sand swept over him.His head began to swim in an ocean of narcotic bliss, and the Reapers seized the opportunity to wrestcontrol of his body away from him.Helpless, he could only watch from within as his body walked over to the cot and lay back down onthe bed. Lying there in a dust storm fugue, he struggled to understand what had just happened. Therewas only one explanation that made any sense.Cerberus was still watching him. Studying him. They knew he was resisting the Reapers; they haddosed him with concentrated red sand to weaken his resolve. Sometime during his previous high theymust have surgically implanted a device to allow them to remotely administer doses of the drug to keephim in a perpetual state of intoxication.It wouldn’t have been hard; a small radio-controlled dispenser under the skin that released the sanddirectly into his bloodstream would do the trick. At a soluble mixture of near one hundred percentconcentration, it would take only a few drops to send him flying each time. Eventually the supply in thedispenser would run out, but that didn’t give him hope: he knew Cerberus would just refill it.His eyes closed, shutting out the world. The Reapers needed him to rest; the transformation was still inprogress. They needed him to sleep, and so he did.
(Page 60).  

So on point. Understand how indoctriantion works first please.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

So did Benzia and Grayson speak there mind. But your missing one thing. Did you speak your mind to the starchild?

Once again, I will say. Indoctrinated people talk their indoctrinator's mind. They can break the indoctrination off for a few moments. That means they can control all of themsleves. Shepard didn't. Shepard could only keep her mind at focus, and talk. 

And what do you mean about the catalyst?

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Its part of the illusion the Reapers have cast on TIM. Do you really think if the soldiers didn't fight the husks, that TIM would believe he could control them?

It was said in game, what Cerberus and husks are fighting each other. Not by TIM (who is actually done with it), but by your own team. If that was a Reaper ruse, well, prove it.

It's genuine. TIM might be indoctrinated, but it doesn't mean he's quite the good Reaper pawn yet. He's on to something which is why they attacked Sanctuary.

[Lord Goose]

Dude... the whole notion of wanting to control the Reapers COMES FROM BEING INDOCTRINATED. And THEY WANT THE CRUCIBLE SO TIM CAN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THEM. ITS JUST AN ILLUSION THE REAPERS HAVE CAST ON HIS MIND. IT. IS. IMPOSSIBLE. TO. CONTROL. THE. REAPERS. IF CERBERUS HAS THE CRUCIBLE, THE REAPERS HAVE IT. This is not complicated.

It is possible to desire control over Reapers even without indoctrination. Where is no space magic, that prevents that.

[Lord Goose]

Well the Reapers unfortunately were not surrendering. "I think we'd rather be left alone (or something along those lines)" "No."

Shepard was willing to risk his life and I suppose the Geth to save the majority of his allies in destroy.

I bolded the part. Ruthless is all about killing enemies, no matter how much your own soldiers would die in process. So, yeah. Kill the geth to kill the Reapers is exactly the same tactic.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

So did Benzia and Grayson speak there mind. But your missing one thing. Did you speak your mind to the starchild?

Once again, I will say. Indoctrinated people talk their indoctrinator's mind. They can break the indoctrination off for a few moments. That means they can control all of themsleves. Shepard didn't. Shepard could only keep her mind at focus, and talk. 

And what do you mean about the catalyst?

Your still not getting it. Benzia and Grayson were never psychologically controled. They were physicaly controled thought the mind. You not understand that your blanketing the higher stages of indoctriantion on all the stages of indoctriantion. Only in the advance stages of indoctriantion they have limited time of resistance. Early stage indoctriantion is easier and longer to resiste. 
READ this from ME:retribution. THis is after Grayson was indoctrianted...(And this is the 3 time i'M POSTING THIS)

When Grayson woke up, he was horrified to discover he was a prisoner in his own body. He couldsee and hear everything around him, but it seemed surreal, almost as if he was watching a projection on avid screen with the volume and brightness set way too high.He rolled over in the cot, spun to put his feet on the floor, stood up, and began to pace restlesslyabout the cell—but none of these actions came from his own volition. His body refused to respond to hiscommands; he was powerless to control his own actions. He had become a meat puppet, an instrumentof Reaper will.He briefly registered the fact that his crippled knee had somehow repaired itself overnight. Then hiseyes flickered downward, giving him a glimpse of his body, and his mind recoiled in disgust.He was being transformed. Repurposed. The implants in his brain had spread throughout his body.The self-replicating Reaper nanotechnology had woven itself into his muscles, sinews, and nerves,transforming him into a monstrous hybrid of synthetic and organic life. His flesh had become stretchedand semitranslucent. Beneath it he could see thin flexible tubes winding along the length of his limbs.Flickers of red and blue light pulsed along the tubes, the illumination bright enough to be visible throughhis opaque skin.Even though he was no longer in control of his body, he could feel that the cybernetics had made himboth faster and stronger. He was more aware of his surroundings; his senses were heightened to asupernatural level. The melding of man and machine had created a being that was physically superior toany evolutionary design.But that wasn’t the only change. He was also developing rudimentary biotic abilities beyond thosetemporarily granted by dosing up with red sand. He could sense his Reaper masters pushing and probing,eager to test the limits of his weak but ever-growing power.
(Page 59). The Reapers turned his body to face the shelf of provisions. Inside he felt a buildup of energy, like astatic charge increased a thousandfold. His hand rose, palm extended toward the ration kits. There was asudden jolt along the length of his arm, strong enough to send a flare of pain shooting up to Grayson’shelpless consciousness.The neat pile of carefully stacked rations was blown apart by the impact of a biotic push. Boxes shotup into the air, bouncing off the shelves and wall before clattering onto the floor.It was hardly an impressive display. Grayson had seen his own daughter lift a thousand-kilogram pieceof machinery and use it to crush a pair of Cerberus agents. The scattered ration packs weighed less thana kilogram each, and the impact hadn’t even been powerful enough to burst the seals keeping the foodinside fresh. But he knew his power would continue to grow, and he sensed the Reapers were pleased.Grayson lowered his arm, and it took him a full second before the significance of the action struck him.He had lowered his arm; not the Reapers—him!The biotic display must have temporarily weakened their control of his body. Recognizing that theirdomination of his will was not yet absolute was all the encouragement he needed to fight back.The whispers in his head grew to an angry roar as Grayson struggled to regain control of his physicalform. He shut them out, ignoring them as he focused all his energy on the simple act of taking a singlestep.His left foot rose in response, moving forward half a foot before coming back down to the floor. Thenhis right foot followed suit, setting off a chain reaction in Grayson’s body. He could literally feel eachindividual muscle tighten, then relax, as his mind reasserted its dominion over what was rightfully his.As he came back to himself, his body began to tremble. His mouth felt dry, his skin itchy. Herecognized the classic symptoms of withdrawal. The hit of red sand was wearing off, allowing him toregain his focus and concentration, his most valuable weapons against the aliens inside his head.
(Page 60). 
The Reapers were mounting a counterassault: pushing in on his thoughts, trying to twist and bend themto their control. But Grayson refused to surrender what he had fought so hard to regain. It was a battle tosave his very identity, and he was winning!He felt a rush of elation and adrenaline … and something else. He barely had time to realize what itwas before the warmth of another dose of red sand swept over him.His head began to swim in an ocean of narcotic bliss, and the Reapers seized the opportunity to wrestcontrol of his body away from him.Helpless, he could only watch from within as his body walked over to the cot and lay back down onthe bed. Lying there in a dust storm fugue, he struggled to understand what had just happened. Therewas only one explanation that made any sense.Cerberus was still watching him. Studying him. They knew he was resisting the Reapers; they haddosed him with concentrated red sand to weaken his resolve. Sometime during his previous high theymust have surgically implanted a device to allow them to remotely administer doses of the drug to keephim in a perpetual state of intoxication.It wouldn’t have been hard; a small radio-controlled dispenser under the skin that released the sanddirectly into his bloodstream would do the trick. At a soluble mixture of near one hundred percentconcentration, it would take only a few drops to send him flying each time. Eventually the supply in thedispenser would run out, but that didn’t give him hope: he knew Cerberus would just refill it.His eyes closed, shutting out the world. The Reapers needed him to rest; the transformation was still inprogress. They needed him to sleep, and so he did.
(Page 60).  

Note the if he was not drugged agian with red sand, he would of succeed with resisting the reapers. Shepard is in that stage in the end of ME3 when he still can resist the full effects of indoctination.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Well the Reapers unfortunately were not surrendering. "I think we'd rather be left alone (or something along those lines)" "No."

Shepard was willing to risk his life and I suppose the Geth to save the majority of his allies in destroy.

I bolded the part. Ruthless is all about killing enemies, no matter how much your own soldiers would die in process. So, yeah. Kill the geth to kill the Reapers is exactly the same tactic.

True, but we're referring to Ruthless as a whole. Well, we don't really know the geth will die as a result. It's like a hostage situation where we have no way of confirming if the hostage is really in danger. We're just told, "do this, and they'll die too"

Also, most destroyers pick destroy, because they feel they're risking everyone in the galaxy by not doing so. Not because of some petty revenge thing. We only have 1 crucible.

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 09:27 .

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

Dude... the whole notion of wanting to control the Reapers COMES FROM BEING INDOCTRINATED. And THEY WANT THE CRUCIBLE SO TIM CAN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THEM. ITS JUST AN ILLUSION THE REAPERS HAVE CAST ON HIS MIND. IT. IS. IMPOSSIBLE. TO. CONTROL. THE. REAPERS. IF CERBERUS HAS THE CRUCIBLE, THE REAPERS HAVE IT. This is not complicated.

It is possible to desire control over Reapers even without indoctrination. Where is no space magic, that prevents that.

But their is a proto repaer in the base that was brought in during the time Shepard was jailed that can indoctrinate TIM to want to.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Well the Reapers unfortunately were not surrendering. "I think we'd rather be left alone (or something along those lines)" "No."

Shepard was willing to risk his life and I suppose the Geth to save the majority of his allies in destroy.

I bolded the part. Ruthless is all about killing enemies, no matter how much your own soldiers would die in process. So, yeah. Kill the geth to kill the Reapers is exactly the same tactic.

Wrong. Its only ruthless if there are better options avaialble.

And in this case there are not.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...


1.Benzia never has her will change when she is indoctriantated. That allown counter you point. She even helps you.
2.I guess I have to post this agein...
Thi is form ME:retruibution. This is Grayson resisting after being indoctrinated...

*snip the book*

So on point. Understand how indoctriantion works first please.

1. You REALLY don't understand what I'm trying to say here, do you? You can break indoc for moments. That's what Benezia did. Shepard couldn't control his/her body. Only his/her mind and to talk. That is something you can't do while being indoc. Shepard resisted afterwards and regained full control over his/her body. THAT is like someone that is indoc, can resist and gain control. Only that Shepard later could control herself anyway, after TIM was dead. Something like what Shepard did never happend before to someone who was indoc, or even in the process of that.

2. This is what happens after Grayson listened to voices. He was only in complete control then. He can resist. I never said he can't. What are you trying to say here?


Please actually try and read my posts before bringing me information I know already and have no real meaing to what I'm trying to say.

And please don't strawman the argument.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 15 juin 2012 - 09:31 .

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Dude... the whole notion of wanting to control the Reapers COMES FROM BEING INDOCTRINATED. And THEY WANT THE CRUCIBLE SO TIM CAN ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THEM. ITS JUST AN ILLUSION THE REAPERS HAVE CAST ON HIS MIND. IT. IS. IMPOSSIBLE. TO. CONTROL. THE. REAPERS. IF CERBERUS HAS THE CRUCIBLE, THE REAPERS HAVE IT. This is not complicated.

It is possible to desire control over Reapers even without indoctrination. Where is no space magic, that prevents that.

Indoctrination clearly uses your personality to sway you, . Saren saw himself as making the hard decision to help the reapers in order to save some lives (submission being preferable to extinction). Also, he wanted to kill humans. It is not out of character for TIM to want to control the Reapers at all. Just to be clear, I'm agreeing with you here Goose. (as typically on BSN quotes are used to say "You're the one I'm arguing with")

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 09:32 .

[Lord Goose]

Well, we don't really know the geth will die as a result. It's like a hostage situation where we have no way of confirming if the hostage is really in danger. We're just told, "do this, and they'll die too"

Well, we don't know if Reapers die, if we shoot the tube. Everything that Catalyst says should be taken on faith alone, because we have zero evidence for any option. I think it is irresponsible to believe only into parts you like.

If I don't trust the catalyst, I clearly wouldn't do as he says. And he says: "But you have to choose". So logically, I should refrain from making a choice, because any of them could be a trap.

And in this case there are not.

Control. You will die and lose everything you have, but you would be able to end Reaper's threat without killing your allies.
Synthesis. You could do something magical, and no one will die.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


1.Benzia never has her will change when she is indoctriantated. That allown counter you point. She even helps you.
2.I guess I have to post this agein...
Thi is form ME:retruibution. This is Grayson resisting after being indoctrinated...

*snip the book*

So on point. Understand how indoctriantion works first please.

1. You REALLY don't understand what I'm trying to say here, do you? You can break indoc for moments. That's what Benezia did. Shepard couldn't control his/her body. Only his/her mind and to talk. That is something you can't do.

2. This is what happens after Grayson listened to voices. He was only in complete control then. He can resist. I never said he can't. What are you trying to say here?


Please actually try and read my posts before bringing me information I know already and have no real meaing to what I'm trying to say.

And please don't strawman the argument.

1.Ypu still not understand what I'm saying. You confusing syntom of the advance stages of indoctrination with a basic sign. You just said listing to the voice is the sign of indoctriantion. That's not true. That and indecation of going into the advance stages of it. Hearing voices is the basic level of it. 
  
2. You still not getting that he didn't listen to the voice. If he did he would not resist. Hearing  voices is the synotm of indoctriantom, listen to it is an advance stage of it. The star child can be said to be in the "listening" part of  the advance stage.
If you want a clear indocation what the syntoms are....
  
I'm say you think an advance stage of indoctriantion is the base sign of it when it's not.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 09:37 .

[Lord Goose]

Indoctrination clearly uses your personality to sway you, .

Exactly. So, if you're believe in I.T., please, explain me why can't Reapers use Shepards desire to destroy them to make him paranoid, who will screw up everything, believing in crazy conspiracy theory, that everything around him is indoctrination attempt?

I can clearly picture who he tries to destroy the Crucible, claiming that it was reaper's trap, tries to kill the geth, because they were Reaper's slaves, kill quarians, because they're to close to geth, kill anybody who is trying to reason him, believing that his opponent is indoctrinated... All while thinking, that he is in full control over himself.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 15 juin 2012 - 09:39 .

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Well, we don't really know the geth will die as a result. It's like a hostage situation where we have no way of confirming if the hostage is really in danger. We're just told, "do this, and they'll die too"

Well, we don't know if Reapers die, if we shoot the tube. Everything that Catalyst says should be taken on faith alone, because we have zero evidence for any option. I think it is irresponsible to believe only into parts you like.

If I don't trust the catalyst, I clearly wouldn't do as he says. And he says: "But you have to choose". So logically, I should refrain from making a choice, because any of them could be a trap.

And in this case there are not.

Control. You will die and lose everything you have, but you would be able to end Reaper's threat without killing your allies.
Synthesis. You could do something magical, and no one will die.

Please refer to bill caseys post.


There are no better options.

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Funny, you sound exactly like Saren. 

Just sayin'....

Excuse me? 

Why? 

Shepard is speaking her/his mind when being controlled by TIM, and don't just do what TIM says without any question, right?

What exactly have I said that makes me sound like Saren here?

Thinking that you're somehow above indoctrination because you're aware of whats going on and are more in control of yourself. 

[Lord Goose]

Please refer to bill caseys post.

Emotions and personal interpretation. I respect his right to have his own opinion, but simply disagree.

TIM wanted Control to achieve some shady goals about ensuring humanity dominance over the galaxy.
Saren wanted to became cyborg, because he believed that submission is preferable to extinction, and was eager to prove himself useful.

It's pretty clear from the game. I would rather took simplistic and logical approach. Controlling Reapers is necessary to let more allies live. So, yeah, it is necessary to took control, and do nothing but make Reapers go away.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Well, we don't really know the geth will die as a result. It's like a hostage situation where we have no way of confirming if the hostage is really in danger. We're just told, "do this, and they'll die too"

Well, we don't know if Reapers die, if we shoot the tube. Everything that Catalyst says should be taken on faith alone, because we have zero evidence for any option. I think it is irresponsible to believe only into parts you like.

If I don't trust the catalyst, I clearly wouldn't do as he says. And he says: "But you have to choose". So logically, I should refrain from making a choice, because any of them could be a trap.

And in this case there are not.

Control. You will die and lose everything you have, but you would be able to end Reaper's threat without killing your allies.
Synthesis. You could do something magical, and no one will die.

He never tells us that shooting the tube leads to killing the Reapers. He does however tell us that the Geth will die and a lot about synthetics killing us etc. I'm fine with that all being a lie. I'm pretty sure though, that since the crucible is anti-reaper weapon it should have something that destroys Reapers. And he does lie about us standing there proving that the his solution won't work any more. We're only standing there because he brought us up! Leave us down there, and the Reapers can continue as they please. The Crucible, due to an apparently stupid design isn't activated, and we can't win without it. The Reapers had already won. 

He also talks up Synthesis and Control, while dismissing Destroy. "The peace won't last etc." It seems that Destroy is the option it doesn't want us to pick. Now that could be an elaborate double bluff, but that does require a lot faith in a person who doesn't really justify it as presented in that scene. In that scene he accepts everything he's told.

Personally, because of the ridiculous amount of inconsistencies post-Harbinger, I think that Shepard's still unconscious from the blast. I think the importance of the scene is whether or not Shepard actively REJECTS destruction in favour of other options.

[KingZayd]

HellishFiend wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Funny, you sound exactly like Saren. 

Just sayin'....

Excuse me? 

Why? 

Shepard is speaking her/his mind when being controlled by TIM, and don't just do what TIM says without any question, right?

What exactly have I said that makes me sound like Saren here?

Thinking that you're somehow above indoctrination because you're aware of whats going on and are more in control of yourself. 

OK that would sound like Saren, but that wasn't what she was saying. She was saying that TIM's indoctrination works strangely, as Shepard's limbs are moved, but he never feels like he wants to shoot Anderson. He just does.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Ypu still not understand what I'm saying. You confusing syntom of the advance stages of indoctrination with a basic sign. You just said listing to the voice is the sign of indoctriantion. That's not true. That and indecation of going into the advance stages of it. Hearing voices is the basic level of it. 
  
2. You still not getting that he didn't listen to the voice. If he did he would not resist. Hearing  voices is the synotm of indoctriantom, listen to it is an advance stage of it. The star child can be said to be in the "listening" part of  the advance stage.
If you want a clear indocation what the syntoms are....
  
I'm say you think an advance stage of indoctriantion is the base sign of it when it's not.

NO, No, no. I'm saying that TIM didn't control with indoctrination. If he did then Shepard would have heard the whispers clearly, as did Grayson. But Shepard didn't, so the control was not through indoctrination, at least not like reapers'. If it was all not hallucination, TIM controlled Shepard. There is no doubt about that. So it means that if TIM controlled Shepard, s/he should have heard the voices clearly, since Shepard was indoctrinated. But she didn't, so Shepard wasn't indoc. If s/he wasn't indoc, then TIM didn't control Shepard through indoctrination (again, at least not reaper indoctrination).  

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, simply tell me and I'll try to explain it better. Stop bring me information I know already and has nothing to do with what I'm trying to tell you.