553 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

KingZayd wrote...

OK that would sound like Saren, but that wasn't what she was saying. She was saying that TIM's indoctrination works strangely, as Shepard's limbs are moved, but he never feels like he wants to shoot Anderson. He just does.

THANK YOU. That is all I'm trying to say here. 

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Indoctrination clearly uses your personality to sway you, .

Exactly. So, if you're believe in I.T., please, explain me why can't Reapers use Shepards desire to destroy them to make him paranoid, who will screw up everything, believing in crazy conspiracy theory, that everything around him is indoctrination attempt?

I can clearly picture who he tries to destroy the Crucible, claiming that it was reaper's trap, tries to kill the geth, because they were Reaper's slaves, kill quarians, because they're to close to geth, kill anybody who is trying to reason him, believing that his opponent is indoctrinated... All while thinking, that he is in full control over himself.

But the reapers do try to apeal to his personaltiy. they lie and say that the reapers arent the main threaght. they try amd trick him into picking synthesis and control, painting the in goo light and claiming its for the good of the galaxy, appealing to shepards desire to save everyone.

Only is destroy shown in bad light.


So you see the reaper do try to take advantage of shepard.

[Lord Goose]

He never tells us that shooting the tube leads to killing the Reapers.

He doesn't actually tell us that grabbing controls will allow us to control the Reapers.
Or that jumping into beam would activate Synthesis.

I'm pretty sure though, that since the crucible is anti-reaper weapon it should have something that destroys Reapers.

It could be a trap to make Reaper's job easier. Not an actual anti-reaper weapon.

He also talks up Synthesis and Control, while dismissing Destroy. "The peace won't last etc." It seems that Destroy is the option it doesn't want us to pick.

That's... subjective. You were probably playing a hero, right? Someone, who will not place himself above others.

But, it is possible to play Shepard as egoist, who values himself/herself more than anything. And for that kind of character "you will die, you will control us, but you will lose everything you have" is pretty much unpleasant.

[Lord Goose]

Only is destroy shown in bad light.

Well if "you will die, you will control us, but you will lose everything you have" isn't bad light, I don't know that is.

appealing to shepards desire to save everyone.

Assume that Shepard is egoistic bastard, who is easily can step over corpse of his friends (Wrex, Mordin) to achieve his own goals, and that this egoistical bastard doesn't want to die.

I would say, that appealing to his desire to save everyone is pointless. Especially, since they say that that destroy will only kill the geth. Why the hell Shepard would care, if for him they're just useful machines? He doomed entire krogan race, killed the last rachni queen, and throw all rules out the window just to stop Reapers, when he decided to use Collectors base.

Why the hell would he care about bunch of AIs?

Also, even if they don't want him to choose destroy, it doesn't mean that destroy allows to break indoctrination. It may simply mean that paranoid Shepard would be less effective for them.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 15 juin 2012 - 10:02 .

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Indoctrination clearly uses your personality to sway you, .

Exactly. So, if you're believe in I.T., please, explain me why can't Reapers use Shepards desire to destroy them to make him paranoid, who will screw up everything, believing in crazy conspiracy theory, that everything around him is indoctrination attempt?

I can clearly picture who he tries to destroy the Crucible, claiming that it was reaper's trap, tries to kill the geth, because they were Reaper's slaves, kill quarians, because they're to close to geth, kill anybody who is trying to reason him, believing that his opponent is indoctrinated... All while thinking, that he is in full control over himself.

Sorry I missed this post

If you're talking about the tube being a trap well then the problem wouldn't that he WAS paranoid, the problem would be that he wasn't paranoid ENOUGH  

Sees the Geth as a hypothetical hostage etc.

That said, if you're saying that he wakes up indoctrinated in a paranoid way, then I suppose there's nothing we know that would contradict that, and if indeed it turned out to be this and they did it well then I couldn't complain. In fact, it could even be brilliant. It'd be especially grim (but i'd still approve) if all choices led to this sort of manipulation :/ It'd certainly sound like what people seem to suggest Lovecraftian (I'm no expert on that stuff) bad guys would be like.

I've always thought though that once they start indoctrinating someone, that it automatically starts taking over the mind, firstly to make the subject stop seeing the Reapers as the enemy, and eventually see them as on your side as convenient ally, then friend, then master. But that's just based on what we've seen, which admittedly isn't very much.

It is quite possible that they can customise it.

[revo76]

Another thing to IT lovers:

IMO, Starchild is not the 'ending' they're talking or mentioned. For me the ending is the one which Buzz Aldrin speaks. I dont think one of the 3 astronauts who landed Moon is exist for juct one stupid post-game scene.

If you think deeper, you will have same ending for each choices in starchild, no matter you love green, blue or red colors, so it's kinda definitive ending.

He tells us, Shepard became a legend, saved galaxy blabla, but he doesnt say how it happened, so there's a hole (as always in ME3) between starnoob and Aldrin's scene. You can put anything you want between both.

In fact, developers said they wont change endings and remain their useless artistic integrity, and if you consider Buzz Aldrin's scene as ending, they can keep their promise.

So starchild is a dream in Shepard's mind after he got shocked by Harbinger, he fights with it in his sub-coincience;

-Picking green ending will result Shepard's transformation to Reaper. (In this case Reapers main objective is 'ascend' the advanced race, and with this they assumed the avatar of current cycle) and they'll leave, Aldrin speaks in the end..

-Picking red ending will result Shepard's escape attempt (Inception kinda scene will suit perfectly) from Reaper indoctrination, since this is unexpected, it will cause problems in Harbinger, overheat and bam, he wakes up, re-union with crew, nice funeral for Harby, Aldrin speaks in the end..

-Picking blue ending will Result Shepard's mentally death, again he'll be transformed to a Reaper minion, and will be used against dark energy plot, Reapers will leave, his body becomes a husk and will be shot by his crew, Aldrin speaks in the end.

I think Blue and others may suck, it's midnight here i guess it's become of that.

I seriously dont know, i'll support my theory about Buzz Aldrin but i'll leave imagination process to someone else or developers, since they worked so hard to destroy wonderful series with series of illogical choices and results.

Modifié par revo76, 15 juin 2012 - 10:52 .

[Shepard Wins]

Very good points, OP.

[llbountyhunter]

revo76 wrote...

Another thing to IT lovers:

IMO, Starchild is not the 'ending' they're talking or mentioned. For me the ending is the one which Buzz Aldrin speaks. I dont think one of the 3 astronauts who landed Moon is exist for juct one stupid post-game scene.

If you think deeper, you will have same ending for each choices in starchild, no matter you love green, blue or red colors, so it's kinda definitive ending.

He tells us, Shepard became a legend, saved galaxy blabla, but he doesnt say how it happened, so there's a hole (as always in ME3) between starnoob and Aldrin's scene. You can put anything you want between both.

In fact, developers said they wont change endings and remain their useless artistic integrity, and if you consider Buzz Aldrin's scene as ending, they can keep their promise.

So starchild is a dream in Shepard's mind after he got shocked by Harbinger, he fights with it in his sub-coincience;

-Picking green ending will result Shepard's transformation to Reaper. (In this case Reapers main objective is 'ascend' the advanced race, and with this they assumed the avatar of current cycle) and they'll leave, Aldrin speaks in the end..

-Picking red ending will result Shepard's escape attempt from Reaper indoctrination, since this is unexpected, it will cause problems in Harbinger, overheat and bam, he wakes up, re-union with crew, nice funeral for Harby, Aldrin speaks in the end..

-Picking blue ending will Result Shepard's mentally death, again he'll be transformed to a Reaper minion, and will be used against dark energy plot, Reapers will leave, his body becomes a husk and will be shot by his crew, Aldrin speaks in the end.

I think Blue and others may suck, it's midnight here i guess it's become of that.

/bull****

/facepalm.... reaserch the theroy your tryingto disprove please.

[revo76]

In case you dont understand, i like IT theory, it's the only reason why people still can play previous Mass Effect games... And also you can get Buzz Aldrin scene without doing anything (no old saves, no NG+, nothing this has been tested by Xbox users, some PC users also said that they got his scene without anything specific.)

So, problem ?

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

He never tells us that shooting the tube leads to killing the Reapers.

He doesn't actually tell us that grabbing controls will allow us to control the Reapers.
Or that jumping into beam would activate Synthesis.

I'm pretty sure though, that since the crucible is anti-reaper weapon it should have something that destroys Reapers.

It could be a trap to make Reaper's job easier. Not an actual anti-reaper weapon.

He also talks up Synthesis and Control, while dismissing Destroy. "The peace won't last etc." It seems that Destroy is the option it doesn't want us to pick.

That's... subjective. You were probably playing a hero, right? Someone, who will not place himself above others.

But, it is possible to play Shepard as egoist, who values himself/herself more than anything. And for that kind of character "you will die, you will control us, but you will lose everything you have" is pretty much unpleasant.

Exactly, he doesn't tell us how it all works but Shepard sees it. So either Shepard is psychic, the Starchild can make him see things, or it's a dream.

If the crucible is indeed created by the Reapers, or the blueprints were tampered at some point then yes. If so, they're probably the ones that changed it to connect to the Citadel, and what it actually does is probably what all the fuss in London prior to our arrival is about.

Yes. I was pretty much a pure paragon. I picked destroy expecting Shepard would die (his prospects didn't seem particularly good for either of them.. and that was before I discovered the tube was bulletproof from a distance and he decided to walk into the explosion)

I don't know.. the "The Reapers will obey me?" seems to suggest something of Shepard must survive. Being able to command such a large fleet, would make Shepard the most powerful thing in the galaxy. And hey! no crucible to stop him!

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Only is destroy shown in bad light.

Well if "you will die, you will control us, but you will lose everything you have" isn't bad light, I don't know that is.

appealing to shepards desire to save everyone.

Assume that Shepard is egoistic bastard, who is easily can step over corpse of his friends (Wrex, Mordin) to achieve his own goals, and that this egoistical bastard doesn't want to die.

I would say, that appealing to his desire to save everyone is pointless. Especially, since they say that that destroy will only kill the geth. Why the hell Shepard would care, if for him they're just useful machines? He doomed entire krogan race, killed the last rachni queen, and throw all rules out the window just to stop Reapers, when he decided to use Collectors base.

Why the hell would he care about bunch of AIs?

Also, even if they don't want him to choose destroy, it doesn't mean that destroy allows to break indoctrination. It may simply mean that paranoid Shepard would be less effective for them.

Let me clarify... control and syn, are paimted in the least worse light...

[llbountyhunter]

revo76 wrote...

In case you dont understand, i like IT theory, it's the only reason why people still can play previous Mass Effect games... And also you can get Buzz Aldrin scene without doing anything (no old saves, no NG+, nothing this has been tested by Xbox users, some PC users also said that they got his scene without anything specific.)

So, problem ?

No IT works perfectly even with the buzz scene.

[revo76]

llbountyhunter wrote...

revo76 wrote...

In case you dont understand, i like IT theory, it's the only reason why people still can play previous Mass Effect games... And also you can get Buzz Aldrin scene without doing anything (no old saves, no NG+, nothing this has been tested by Xbox users, some PC users also said that they got his scene without anything specific.)

So, problem ?

No IT works perfectly even with the buzz scene.

That's what i'm saying. Also saying there's something missing Aldrins scene and starpiss scene.. But if you think starchild scene as endings, we wont get one because BW clearly said that they wont change them.. And i'm saying they can change endings because starchild is not the ending, Aldrin scene is the ending..

Needs to be clarified, kinda difficult to understand i know.

[KingZayd]

revo76 wrote...

Another thing to IT lovers:

IMO, Starchild is not the 'ending' they're talking or mentioned. For me the ending is the one which Buzz Aldrin speaks. I dont think one of the 3 astronauts who landed Moon is exist for juct one stupid post-game scene.

If you think deeper, you will have same ending for each choices in starchild, no matter you love green, blue or red colors, so it's kinda definitive ending.

He tells us, Shepard became a legend, saved galaxy blabla, but he doesnt say how it happened, so there's a hole (as always in ME3) between starnoob and Aldrin's scene. You can put anything you want between both.

In fact, developers said they wont change endings and remain their useless artistic integrity, and if you consider Buzz Aldrin's scene as ending, they can keep their promise.

So starchild is a dream in Shepard's mind after he got shocked by Harbinger, he fights with it in his sub-coincience;

-Picking green ending will result Shepard's transformation to Reaper. (In this case Reapers main objective is 'ascend' the advanced race, and with this they assumed the avatar of current cycle) and they'll leave, Aldrin speaks in the end..

-Picking red ending will result Shepard's escape attempt (Inception kinda scene will suit perfectly) from Reaper indoctrination, since this is unexpected, it will cause problems in Harbinger, overheat and bam, he wakes up, re-union with crew, nice funeral for Harby, Aldrin speaks in the end..

-Picking blue ending will Result Shepard's mentally death, again he'll be transformed to a Reaper minion, and will be used against dark energy plot, Reapers will leave, his body becomes a husk and will be shot by his crew, Aldrin speaks in the end.

I think Blue and others may suck, it's midnight here i guess it's become of that.

I seriously dont know, i'll support my theory about Buzz Aldrin but i'll leave imagination process to someone else or developers, since they worked so hard to destroy wonderful series with series of illogical choices and results.

/bull****

I'm confused, since this post seemed very  reasonable, but the "/bull****" seems to suggest you think the opposite?

The Stargazer scene seems to suggest that the Reapers are defeated by Shepard, but then that's a long time in the future. I agree: who knows what happened between what we saw and the Stargazer? How will we ever know? Oh there's one more story? cool.

The only things I'd disagree with are the outcomes for synthesis and control, as according to Stargazer, and the popup message after the Stargazer scene, Shepard did stop the reapers. And, unless he did so as a Reaper or a husk, there would be a conflict.

[llbountyhunter]

revo76 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

revo76 wrote...

In case you dont understand, i like IT theory, it's the only reason why people still can play previous Mass Effect games... And also you can get Buzz Aldrin scene without doing anything (no old saves, no NG+, nothing this has been tested by Xbox users, some PC users also said that they got his scene without anything specific.)

So, problem ?

No IT works perfectly even with the buzz scene.

That's what i'm saying. Also saying there's something missing Aldrins scene and starpiss scene.. But if you think starchild scene as endings, we wont get one because BW clearly said that they wont change them.. And i'm saying they can change endings because starchild is not the ending, Aldrin scene is the ending..

Needs to be clarified, kinda difficult to understand i know.

Lol, i get now... 

The real ending is buzz and the child.

So no matter what bioware does before that, they wont be changing the ending.  nice catch.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 15 juin 2012 - 10:18 .

[Lord Goose]

That said, if you're saying that he wakes up indoctrinated in a paranoid way, then I suppose there's nothing we know that would contradict that, and if indeed it turned out to be this and they did it well then I couldn't complain. In fact, it could even be brilliant. It'd be especially grim (but i'd still approve) if all choices led to this sort of manipulation :/ It'd certainly sound like what people seem to suggest Lovecraftian (I'm no expert on that stuff) bad guys would be like.

I see. Well, I'm thinking that it is the only way how I. T. could work for me. But I'm thinking that correct choice would be simply die from bleeding. That's how indoctrination is usually defeated - by suicide.

I've always thought though that once they start indoctrinating someone, that it automatically starts taking over the mind, firstly to make the subject stop seeing the Reapers as the enemy, and eventually see them as on your side as convenient ally, then friend, then master. But that's just based on what we've seen, which admittedly isn't very much.

If the victim putting up enough resistance, they can simply turn it into their puppet. Or the could lure victim into false sense of security, and subtly manipulate him or her, before its too late.

They done it with Grayson in Retribution novel.

[Ageless Face]

revo76 wrote...

That's what i'm saying. Also saying there's something missing Aldrins scene and starpiss scene.. But if you think starchild scene as endings, we wont get one because BW clearly said that they wont change them.. And i'm saying they can change endings because starchild is not the ending, Aldrin scene is the ending..

Needs to be clarified, kinda difficult to understand i know.

Actually the ending is also the breath scene if you pick destroy... So it can't change.

[llbountyhunter]

[quote]Lord Goose wrote...

[quote]That said, if you're saying that he wakes up indoctrinated in a paranoid way, then I suppose there's nothing we know that would contradict that, and if indeed it turned out to be this and they did it well then I couldn't complain. In fact, it could even be brilliant. It'd be especially grim (but i'd still approve) if all choices led to this sort of manipulation :/ It'd certainly sound like what people seem to suggest Lovecraftian (I'm no expert on that stuff) bad guys would be like.[/quote]

I see. Well, I'm thinking that it is the only way how I. T. could work for me. But I'm thinking that correct choice would be simply die from bleeding. That's how indoctrination is usually defeated - by suicide.
[quote].[/quote][/quote]
But shepard isnt indoctrinated at this point. Hes in the process of becoming indoctrinated. No need for suicide yet.
[/quote]

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 15 juin 2012 - 10:23 .

[llbountyhunter]

HagarIshay wrote...

revo76 wrote...

That's what i'm saying. Also saying there's something missing Aldrins scene and starpiss scene.. But if you think starchild scene as endings, we wont get one because BW clearly said that they wont change them.. And i'm saying they can change endings because starchild is not the ending, Aldrin scene is the ending..

Needs to be clarified, kinda difficult to understand i know.

Actually the ending is also the breath scene if you pick destroy... So it can't change.

Yeah, but if pick destroy the ending wont be changed.... wow more ecidence for IT.

[Lord Goose]

Let me clarify... control and syn, are paimted in the least worse light...

Let me try to explain it, by mimicking renegade.

I'm Renegade. All I want is to rid the Galaxy of these machines once and for all. All I do is trying to send them back to hell. I doomed krogan race, I killed my own friends in cold blood, because they stood in the way. Why the hell would I care about geth? Maybe I'm supposed to care about my armor and guns? I don't see difference, I'm renegade.

You say control? Why the **** I want to control, if I die? I don't need Reapers, I want to see them dead, and I always wanted to do it.

You say synthesis? I say it's a bull****. I'm renegade, why would I care about future generations?

Try to play as 100% renegade, really. It gives some answers.

[Erield]

llbountyhunter wrote...
But the reapers do try to apeal to his personaltiy. they lie and say that the reapers arent the main threaght. they try amd trick him into picking synthesis and control, painting the in goo light and claiming its for the good of the galaxy, appealing to shepards desire to save everyone.

Only is destroy shown in bad light.

So you see the reaper do try to take advantage of shepard.

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.  Synthesis is definitely painted in a good, positive, lovey dubby superawesomefuntimez!! mode.  Destroy is presented in a bad light.

It's obvious that the Star Child doesn't want you to pick Destroy.  The question is why.  It could be because if you choose that option, then you'll break free of Indoctrination and be free to kill them.  It's also possible that it's because he's responsible for keeping the Galaxy free of organic-life-killing psychotic synthetics, and that's the one option that ensures there is no built-in 'check' to prevent that from happening.  (If you take the Star Child at face value, and if you assume that it's correct in its assessment of Synthesis; see Ieldra2's thread for a way this could work and prevent future singularity rampage.)

To my mind, both interpretations of motivation are equally valid.

Now then, is it fair to assume that a creature as devious and insidious as a Reaper will give Shepard the only means to break free?  There is no coherent reason to give the option to Shepard if it can lead to Shepard's victory.  With no idea how the Crucible works, the Reaper that's Indoctrinating Shepard could make up anything (and seemingly did with Synthesis.)  Destroy is not a mandate, not a requirement in and of itself.  "No, the Crucible isn't designed for that.  It was always supposed to take Command of those you call the Reapers away from me." 

[Ageless Face]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Yeah, but if pick destroy the ending wont be changed.... wow more ecidence for IT.

No actually. It means that if the breath scene is the ending for destroy, you won't get to kill the reapers. Shepard will just be stuck in the rubble for the rest of his/her life. 

[Lord Goose]

But shepard isnt indoctrinated at this point. Hes in the process of becoming indoctrinated. No need for suicide yet.

I haven't seen anyone, who managed to resist indoctrination without suicide. Well, without Thorian enslavement and Rachni Hive Mind, at least.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

That said, if you're saying that he wakes up indoctrinated in a paranoid way, then I suppose there's nothing we know that would contradict that, and if indeed it turned out to be this and they did it well then I couldn't complain. In fact, it could even be brilliant. It'd be especially grim (but i'd still approve) if all choices led to this sort of manipulation :/ It'd certainly sound like what people seem to suggest Lovecraftian (I'm no expert on that stuff) bad guys would be like.

I see. Well, I'm thinking that it is the only way how I. T. could work for me. But I'm thinking that correct choice would be simply die from bleeding. That's how indoctrination is usually defeated - by suicide.

I've always thought though that once they start indoctrinating someone, that it automatically starts taking over the mind, firstly to make the subject stop seeing the Reapers as the enemy, and eventually see them as on your side as convenient ally, then friend, then master. But that's just based on what we've seen, which admittedly isn't very much.

If the victim putting up enough resistance, they can simply turn it into their puppet. Or the could lure victim into false sense of security, and subtly manipulate him or her, before its too late.

They done it with Grayson in Retribution novel.

I think this is still the early stages of indoctrination. Remember how Saren was more indoctrinated on the Citadel than he was on Vermire? Saren was able to blow his brains out on the Citadel. I imagine he'd be capable of much more if he was resisting at Vermire.. if only he'd believed us.

To quote TIM:
"Grayson was loyal to nothing but his next dose of Red Sand."
A bit harsh, but I'm guessing the point is that as an addict, Grayson clearly did not have much mental strength.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Let me clarify... control and syn, are paimted in the least worse light...

Let me try to explain it, by mimicking renegade.

I'm Renegade. All I want is to rid the Galaxy of these machines once and for all. All I do is trying to send them back to hell. I doomed krogan race, I killed my own friends in cold blood, because they stood in the way. Why the hell would I care about geth? Maybe I'm supposed to care about my armor and guns? I don't see difference, I'm renegade.

You say control? Why the **** I want to control, if I die? I don't need Reapers, I want to see them dead, and I always wanted to do it.

You say synthesis? I say it's a bull****. I'm renegade, why would I care about future generations?

Try to play as 100% renegade, really. It gives some answers.

Control would most appeal to you then... stop making false, unrealistic shepards. its the only one were your garanteed to live.

Synthesis: you die.
Destroy: hints at death
control: you lose your body, but are still alive to control the reapers.