553 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Yeah, but if pick destroy the ending wont be changed.... wow more ecidence for IT.

No actually. It means that if the breath scene is the ending for destroy, you won't get to kill the reapers. Shepard will just be stuck in the rubble for the rest of his/her life. 

I have faith in Garrus. Wait.. he deserted?! The bat-turian disappoints.

[Lord Goose]

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

Also, on the subject Paragon and Renegade.




Notice that Renegade express desire to destroy the reapers in comparison to paragon. It is actully very funny, because it seems like TIM automatically assumes that Shepard is for destroy, no matter what he or she says. Paragon is basically: help me, we need to save Earth! And TIM is all like: "I won't let you destroy the Reapers!".

Modifié par Lord Goose, 15 juin 2012 - 10:33 .

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

Also, on the subject Paragon and Renegade.




Notice that Renegade express desire to destroy the reapers in comparison to paragon. It is actully very funny, because it seems like TIM automatically assumes that Shepard is for destroy, no matter what he or she says. Paragon is basically: help me, we need to save Earth! And TIM is all like: "I won't let you destroy the Reapers!".

How can you control, if you're actually dead? There must be something of you there to be able to control. And if you're controlling these things, you automatically become the most powerful thing in the galaxy. How is that not appealing?

[Lord Goose]

Control would most appeal to you then... stop making false, unrealistic shepards. its the only one were your garanteed to live.

The child says that I will die. And what I lose everything I have. And all I want is to rid the Galaxy of these machines once and for all and send them back to hell.

If I'm going to die in destroy, he would have said the same thing. "You will destroy us, but you will die" or something like that.

[Lord Goose]

How can you control, if you're actually dead?

I don't know, and I don't want to try. I want these machines dead. I said that on Mars, I said that on Thessia, and I don't see why should it change.

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

Control would most appeal to you then... stop making false, unrealistic shepards. its the only one were your garanteed to live.

The child says that I will die. And what I lose everything I have. And all I want is to rid the Galaxy of these machines once and for all and send them back to hell.

If I'm going to die in destroy, he would have said the same thing. "You will destroy us, but you will die" or something like that.

So who controls the reapers then?

[zambot]

Lord Goose wrote...

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

Also, on the subject Paragon and Renegade.




Notice that Renegade express desire to destroy the reapers in comparison to paragon. It is actully very funny, because it seems like TIM automatically assumes that Shepard is for destroy, no matter what he or she says. Paragon is basically: help me, we need to save Earth! And TIM is all like: "I won't let you destroy the Reapers!".

Control and Destroy sort of made sense with their respective colors.  With Destroy you are willing to sacrafice the Geth, EDI, and others to achieve your singular goal of destroying the reapers, and maybe come out of it with your own hide.  It sounds a lot like other renegade choices made throughout the series.  With Control, you are willing to sacrifice yourself to inflict minimal damage to others (relays and citadel stay intact, Geth survive).  It's just very pooly explained at the time you have to make the choice, but very much in line with other paragon choices throughout the game.

Sythesis just makes no sense, so it's appropriate that it's green.

[Erield]

Lord Goose wrote...

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

The whole, "You will control us."  It's neutral.  Your body is dead, but you'll be able to boss around all the Reapers somehow, presumably by becoming like the Catalyst is now.  (Or some other faintly ridiculous manner.)

Compared with "If you pick Destroy, everyone's going to die.  You know that, right?  Everyone and everything!  Maybe not today, and maybe not tomorrow, but the day after!  Or the day after that!  Someday!"  or "Jump in this shining green light-beam and everyone will be a robocorn (that's robot unicorn) and shoot rainbows and eat daisies and smell of roses and have nothing but peace and happiness 'til the end of days!  Yay!"

[KingZayd]

zambot wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

Also, on the subject Paragon and Renegade.




Notice that Renegade express desire to destroy the reapers in comparison to paragon. It is actully very funny, because it seems like TIM automatically assumes that Shepard is for destroy, no matter what he or she says. Paragon is basically: help me, we need to save Earth! And TIM is all like: "I won't let you destroy the Reapers!".

Control and Destroy sort of made sense with their respective colors.  With Destroy you are willing to sacrafice the Geth, EDI, and others to achieve your singular goal of destroying the reapers, and maybe come out of it with your own hide.  It sounds a lot like other renegade choices made throughout the series.  With Control, you are willing to sacrifice yourself to inflict minimal damage to others (relays and citadel stay intact, Geth survive).  It's just very pooly explained at the time you have to make the choice, but very much in line with other paragon choices throughout the game.

Sythesis just makes no sense, so it's appropriate that it's green.

But it's a lot more complicated than that, which is why I feel they put TIM (a renegade) on the control side, and Anderson (a paragon) on the destroy side, to stop you from thinking in terms of paragon and renegade and properly choose.

I played as a pure paragon, but I genuinely felt as if the Reapers were the true problem and they had to stopped. They're the most dangerous thing in the galaxy, and we only have one crucible. The Reapers are still around in Synthesis, and we have no guarantees they won't try anything. In control (let's assume it works), there is one person who possess the absolute power that comes from having this army (remember, crucible is used up) and all of eternity to choose to abuse it.

Picking destroy risks the Geth and EDI now (but then the Geth chose to side with the reapers before to save themselves knowing what would happen to us, so clearly that's the sort of friendship we have, and EDI says she'd be willing to die for Joker), but ensures the safety of the galaxy from the reapers forever.

I pick destroy, because it's my responsibility to protect the galaxy as best I can.

[Lord Goose]

So who controls the reapers then?

Why would I care?
My mission is to destroy the Reapers. I want to send them back to hell, when spend my days as human being. Not some kind of spectral spounge or AI. I care not about control.

It's neutral

Well.
Maybe its just me, but I would find Destroy option very appealing, if not the geth. And same with Control: seriosly speaking, I don't feel any own advantages of this choice. It only looks better in comparison to Destroy and Synthesis.

[Lord Goose]

I pick destroy, because it's my responsibility to protect the
galaxy as best I can.

You can kill the Rachni Queen with the same intentions, you know.

It is basically that Ruthless does: ensures victory in a brutal way, no matter how high price of victory would be.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

I pick destroy, because it's my responsibility to protect the
galaxy as best I can.

You can kill the Rachni Queen with the same intentions, you know.

It is basically that Ruthless does: ensures victory in a brutal way, no matter how high price of victory would be.

True, but I maintain we can beat the Rachni without a crucible (as the Salarians, Asari and mainly the Krogan did). We can't say the same about the Reapers.

I'm also more inclined to trust the Rachni not to hurt us in the future, than the Reapers (who have a reputation for being tricky little buggers)

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

I pick destroy, because it's my responsibility to protect the
galaxy as best I can.

You can kill the Rachni Queen with the same intentions, you know.

It is basically that Ruthless does: ensures victory in a brutal way, no matter how high price of victory would be.

If you believe the catalyst and are ruthless  why would you pick destroy (or anyone who delives the starbrat for that matter)? Destroy is the only one in which the threat will continiue (according to reaperbeiber) he says your children will create synthetics, which means all you did is for nothing and you wouldve essentially doomed everyone.

Control and synthesis are the only ones that supposedly end the threat permenatly.  and like you said ruthless shepard gets the job done!!

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 15 juin 2012 - 11:51 .

[KingZayd]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

I pick destroy, because it's my responsibility to protect the
galaxy as best I can.

You can kill the Rachni Queen with the same intentions, you know.

It is basically that Ruthless does: ensures victory in a brutal way, no matter how high price of victory would be.

If you believe the catalyst and are ruthless  why would you pick destroy? Destroy is the only one in which the threat will continiue (according to reaperbeiber) he says your children will create synthetics, which means all you did is for nothing and you wouldve essentially doomed everyone.

Control and synthesis are the only ones that supposedly end the threat permenatly.  and like you said ruthless shepard gets the job done!!

ruthless doesn't imply evil or gullible. The reapers are the problem. There is no reason a ruthless person wouldn't pick destroy. In fact it'd be even easier, since it'd be like "Geth will die? meh that's fine."

EDIT: nvm. skipped the first few words

Modifié par KingZayd, 15 juin 2012 - 11:40 .

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Goose wrote...

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

Also, on the subject Paragon and Renegade.




Notice that Renegade express desire to destroy the reapers in comparison to paragon. It is actully very funny, because it seems like TIM automatically assumes that Shepard is for destroy, no matter what he or she says. Paragon is basically: help me, we need to save Earth! And TIM is all like: "I won't let you destroy the Reapers!".

Anderson wants reapers dead. Hackett wants reapers dead. Your entire crew wants reapers dead. EDI wants reapers dead. Legion and the geth want the reapers dead. Everyone except the antagonists want the reapers dead. Shepard in all three games wants the Reapers dead.

But you think it's renegade to kill the Reapers when the rest of your crew and everyone good you've ever known thinks it's absolutely paragon to kill the reapers including Shep him/herself. EDI and the Geth claim they would prefer nonfuntionality than to having the reapers alive or serving under their rule.

This is proof that you, the player, have been indoctrinated by Bioware. You've completely ignored the entire series, all of your friends desires to have a life without the reapers alive. You are arrogant enough to believe that you can control the Reapers when Legion (who is a huge collection of Geth programs in one platform) can't even fathom their thoughts and TIM couldn't even do it himself.

Quite simply, you sound like the Illusive man. You sound like a traitor to humanity and all of the races of the galaxy. You sound like an indoctrinated agent. And you don't even realize it. And that's the point.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 16 juin 2012 - 12:00 .

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Ypu still not understand what I'm saying. You confusing syntom of the advance stages of indoctrination with a basic sign. You just said listing to the voice is the sign of indoctriantion. That's not true. That and indecation of going into the advance stages of it. Hearing voices is the basic level of it. 
  
2. You still not getting that he didn't listen to the voice. If he did he would not resist. Hearing  voices is the synotm of indoctriantom, listen to it is an advance stage of it. The star child can be said to be in the "listening" part of  the advance stage.
If you want a clear indocation what the syntoms are....
  
I'm say you think an advance stage of indoctriantion is the base sign of it when it's not.

NO, No, no. I'm saying that TIM didn't control with indoctrination. If he did then Shepard would have heard the whispers clearly, as did Grayson. But Shepard didn't, so the control was not through indoctrination, at least not like reapers'. If it was all not hallucination, TIM controlled Shepard. There is no doubt about that. So it means that if TIM controlled Shepard, s/he should have heard the voices clearly, since Shepard was indoctrinated. But she didn't, so Shepard wasn't indoc. If s/he wasn't indoc, then TIM didn't control Shepard through indoctrination (again, at least not reaper indoctrination).  

If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, simply tell me and I'll try to explain it better. Stop bring me information I know already and has nothing to do with what I'm trying to tell you.  

Get it in your head that understanding the whispers is not the sign your indoctrinated.  I't hearing them. This IS WHAT THE CODEX SAYS.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...


Get it in your head that understanding the whispers is not the sign your indoctrinated.  I't hearing them. This IS WHAT THE CODEX SAYS.

Oh my god......

You don't even TRY and understand what I'm saying.

I'll tell you one more time. If you don't understand that, then there is really no use in talking to you, since you seem so bent to write before reading my posts.


Hearing voices is a sign of indoctrination. Understanding them means you are controlled by the indoctrination.

Shepard heard the voices without understanding them. That's a sign she wasn't fully indoc, s/he should not have been controlled.

Shepard WAS CONTROLLED BY TIM. If s/he was controlled, Shepard should have understand the voices.

Shepard DIDN'T understand the voices. Shepard WAS controlled. Even if she was indoctrinated, something is not right. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 16 juin 2012 - 07:37 .

[StElmo]

FellishBeast wrote...

Good post. Definitely beats explaining these concepts over and over again x]

Agreed. I don't believe IT, but that doesn't mean you make bad points. Your points are very well stated. I hope IT is true, but I don't think it is.

Thanks for moving the discussion to a better place.

[Bill Casey]

Lord Goose wrote...

Control isn't painted in a good light; it's relatively neutral.

How "you will die, and lose everything you have" is neutral, even relatively?

Also, on the subject Paragon and Renegade.




Notice that Renegade express desire to destroy the reapers in comparison to paragon. It is actully very funny, because it seems like TIM automatically assumes that Shepard is for destroy, no matter what he or she says. Paragon is basically: help me, we need to save Earth! And TIM is all like: "I won't let you destroy the Reapers!".

They both express desire to destroy the reapers...


Paragon specifically says, "If we destroy them, this ends today, but if you can't control them"


Illusive Man: "If we can Control it, why should it be ours?"
Shepard: "Because we're not ready."

That is an argument from a philosophical basis...

zambot wrote...

but very much in line with other paragon choices throughout the game.

No it isn't...
The only other time Shepard ever hints at Control is Renegade Shepard on Rannoch...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 juin 2012 - 03:34 .

[Dwailing]

Considering that the release of the EC is coming up, I figure that this thread could use a bump. So, I'll bump.

[Cucobr]

 Like I said, if EC doesnt come with Indoctrination Theory will be another punch on my face... but in this time a tough one.

Modifié par Cucobr, 24 juin 2012 - 01:58 .

[Dwailing]

OK, time to bump again.

[llbountyhunter]

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 25 juillet 2012 - 05:34 .

[llbountyhunter]

alright...added a few more questions and a video.

[MegaSovereign]

Do you still believe in the Indoctrination Theory post-EC?