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[Arian Dynas]

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 15 juin 2012 - 11:47 .

[KingZayd]

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


So... wandering around in the gut of a Derelict Reaper, fighting a Reaper Fetus on foot, then later waltzing by it without a second thought, fighting countless numbers of indoctrinated enemies and husks, dealing with Sovereign, the time spent in the Collector Base, and probably several others I'm not thinking of is not long enough for you?

Even though it only takes ONE exposure to start the process?

Don't you need to be near one tech for a LONG time? Not just a few hours.

I'm not sure it's 100% correct, but I think you need to be near a specific reaper tech for a long time. Isn't one reaper tech need to imprint you with the indoctrination then? You can't just jump from reaper tech to another and the tech will continue the indoc process  when the last tech stopped. 

As stated before, It's like brain damage. Any exposer to indoctriantion waves builds on the pervious damage done before. On and off contact can do it as well.

I actually think of it more as almost a more reaper-sympathetic "alternate personality" that gradually takes over more of your brain with time.

[Ageless Face]

Arian Dynas wrote...

No sweetheart, Reaper tech only takes a little bit of time, and some artifacts take only a few seconds of exposure. Some, like the Arch Monolith, can actually indoctrinate you through physical touch, turning you instantly into a Husk, which even if you touch a husk created in that manner can be dangerous, since that husk is capable of indoctrinating you too.

And Reaper Indoctrination, to use a metaphor, is less like building the foundations of a skyscraper. Think of it more this way. it's like a hole being ripped in a piece of fabric. Gravity and time will eventually make the tear larger on it's own, but if there is someone tugging at it, it goes faster, just like the presence of Reaper tech. 

Indoctrination only needs to be started to give the Reapers an in, a hole in your mind to start ripping, assuming they want to take the slow route of course, which can take months or even years. Recall that The Harbinger has an effectively unlimited range, he could posses the Collector General from Dark Space, and STILL use him as a hub to assume direct control.

Yes, but Shepard never touched anything like what TIM touched. The closest to that is the prothean becons. And they are, well, prothean. 

And I don't recall it was stated in ME that if you continue expsure for each reaper tech for a short time it will lead to indoctrination. It never happened to anyone. Everyone who were indoctrinated, even the subtle indoctrinaton, got exposured for the same device or artifact after a long period of time (except for TIM, but that's a different story). 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 15 juin 2012 - 11:48 .

[dreman9999]

KingZayd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


So... wandering around in the gut of a Derelict Reaper, fighting a Reaper Fetus on foot, then later waltzing by it without a second thought, fighting countless numbers of indoctrinated enemies and husks, dealing with Sovereign, the time spent in the Collector Base, and probably several others I'm not thinking of is not long enough for you?

Even though it only takes ONE exposure to start the process?

Don't you need to be near one tech for a LONG time? Not just a few hours.

I'm not sure it's 100% correct, but I think you need to be near a specific reaper tech for a long time. Isn't one reaper tech need to imprint you with the indoctrination then? You can't just jump from reaper tech to another and the tech will continue the indoc process  when the last tech stopped. 

As stated before, It's like brain damage. Any exposer to indoctriantion waves builds on the pervious damage done before. On and off contact can do it as well.

I actually think of it more as almost a more reaper-sympathetic "alternate personality" that gradually takes over more of your brain with time.

It attacks you're limbic system first.Changing it is a physically and Psycologiacally means as stated in the codex...that still makes it like brain damege if it has physical effect on a persons mind.
And we all know what the limbic system does, that's the worst place of anything to take control of.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 11:53 .

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No sweetheart, Reaper tech only takes a little bit of time, and some artifacts take only a few seconds of exposure. Some, like the Arch Monolith, can actually indoctrinate you through physical touch, turning you instantly into a Husk, which even if you touch a husk created in that manner can be dangerous, since that husk is capable of indoctrinating you too.

And Reaper Indoctrination, to use a metaphor, is less like building the foundations of a skyscraper. Think of it more this way. it's like a hole being ripped in a piece of fabric. Gravity and time will eventually make the tear larger on it's own, but if there is someone tugging at it, it goes faster, just like the presence of Reaper tech. 

Indoctrination only needs to be started to give the Reapers an in, a hole in your mind to start ripping, assuming they want to take the slow route of course, which can take months or even years. Recall that The Harbinger has an effectively unlimited range, he could posses the Collector General from Dark Space, and STILL use him as a hub to assume direct control.

Yes, but Shepard never touched anything like what TIM touched. The closest to that is the prothean becons. And they are, well, prothean. 

And I don't recall it was stated in ME that if you continue expsure for each reaper tech for a short time it will lead to indoctrination. It never happened to anyone. Everyone who were indoctrinated, even the subtle indoctrinaton, got exposured for the same device or artifact after a long period of time (except for TIM, but that's a different story). 

1.So? It still hit him/her with a indoctriantion wave strong enough to give him/her vision, hear vocies, and stagger him/her.
That's not a good sign no matter how you cut it.

2. That's how Saren was indoctrinated.

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 juin 2012 - 11:54 .

[jijeebo]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Arrival was meant to be more important, but like many things in ME3 this never actually ended up being the case.

Also just because a comic is "canon" doesn't mean that its contents overwrite things that are established within the actual game.

They also said that they didn't expect people to think that the Crucible destroying the relays caused the same sort of explosion as the Arrival Relay explosion... Idk why they forgot about it but they did.

Finally, what about Shepards who do Arrival early on in ME2? Why aren't they picked up there and then if that's the reason for him being on Earth? Here's why: It's a plot device to get Shepard on Earth for the moment the invasion starts.


So yes, Arrival ended up being entirely pointless.

[Ageless Face]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

It was very significent. That's why if Shepard didn't do Arrival, Hackett sends a marine squad to take care of the astroid. Like I said before, the events themsleves were canon, no question. But wether or not Shepard did them... Those are not canon.

About the Mass Relays... there is a chance that blowing it up with an astroid is a bit different than with the crucible.

And yes, doing arrival was kind of pointless. Exactly like LOTSB.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Arrival was meant to be more important, but like many things in ME3 this never actually ended up being the case.

Also just because a comic is "canon" doesn't mean that its contents overwrite things that are established within the actual game.

They also said that they didn't expect people to think that the Crucible destroying the relays caused the same sort of explosion as the Arrival Relay explosion... Idk why they forgot about it but they did.

Finally, what about Shepards who do Arrival early on in ME2? Why aren't they picked up there and then if that's the reason for him being on Earth? Here's why: It's a plot device to get Shepard on Earth for the moment the invasion starts.


So yes, Arrival ended up being entirely pointless.

No, it had a point. If it was pointless, it would not be metioned and cut from the plot. 

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No sweetheart, Reaper tech only takes a little bit of time, and some artifacts take only a few seconds of exposure. Some, like the Arch Monolith, can actually indoctrinate you through physical touch, turning you instantly into a Husk, which even if you touch a husk created in that manner can be dangerous, since that husk is capable of indoctrinating you too.

And Reaper Indoctrination, to use a metaphor, is less like building the foundations of a skyscraper. Think of it more this way. it's like a hole being ripped in a piece of fabric. Gravity and time will eventually make the tear larger on it's own, but if there is someone tugging at it, it goes faster, just like the presence of Reaper tech. 

Indoctrination only needs to be started to give the Reapers an in, a hole in your mind to start ripping, assuming they want to take the slow route of course, which can take months or even years. Recall that The Harbinger has an effectively unlimited range, he could posses the Collector General from Dark Space, and STILL use him as a hub to assume direct control.

Yes, but Shepard never touched anything like what TIM touched. The closest to that is the prothean becons. And they are, well, prothean. 

And I don't recall it was stated in ME that if you continue expsure for each reaper tech for a short time it will lead to indoctrination. It never happened to anyone. Everyone who were indoctrinated, even the subtle indoctrinaton, got exposured for the same device or artifact after a long period of time (except for TIM, but that's a different story). 

How many reapers/reaper artifacts do you think the average person comes into contact with?
Shiala didn't hear the voices when only Sovereign was in the galaxy at quite some distance. She didn't hear the voices when Sovereign was dead. She did hear the voices when tons of reapers entered the galaxy though.

[Arian Dynas]

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No sweetheart, Reaper tech only takes a little bit of time, and some artifacts take only a few seconds of exposure. Some, like the Arch Monolith, can actually indoctrinate you through physical touch, turning you instantly into a Husk, which even if you touch a husk created in that manner can be dangerous, since that husk is capable of indoctrinating you too.

And Reaper Indoctrination, to use a metaphor, is less like building the foundations of a skyscraper. Think of it more this way. it's like a hole being ripped in a piece of fabric. Gravity and time will eventually make the tear larger on it's own, but if there is someone tugging at it, it goes faster, just like the presence of Reaper tech. 

Indoctrination only needs to be started to give the Reapers an in, a hole in your mind to start ripping, assuming they want to take the slow route of course, which can take months or even years. Recall that The Harbinger has an effectively unlimited range, he could posses the Collector General from Dark Space, and STILL use him as a hub to assume direct control.

Yes, but Shepard never touched anything like what TIM touched. The closest to that is the prothean becons. And they are, well, prothean. 

And I don't recall it was stated in ME that if you continue expsure for each reaper tech for a short time it will lead to indoctrination. It never happened to anyone. Everyone who were indoctrinated, even the subtle indoctrinaton, got exposured for the same device or artifact after a long period of time (except for TIM, but that's a different story). 

You're missing the point. Those were examples, I never stated that Shepard "touched anything the Illusive Man touched."

Rana Thanoptis
Saren Arterius
Jack Harper
Should I keep going or do you see my point? These are people who had short term exposure at first, which drew them to the Reapers, leading to long term exposure, which has happened to Shepard time and time again.

Think of it like this. There is a rare disease among frogs, which infects the brain and causes them to be drawn to the presence of certain fishing birds, whom then eat the frogs, allowing the disease, which can only procreate in the stomachs of these sea birds, to grow, which then leads it to infect another frog which swims in the same water the bird drops a deuce in.

Indoctrination is similar, it pulls you toward circumstances that make it quicker and easier, and Shepard certainly hasn't been avoiding or ignoring reapers, has he?

Also, shouldn't the fact that there is even one exception point to the fact that there are others? This is simple logic here.

[Ageless Face]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.So? It still hit him/her with a indoctriantion wave strong enough to give him/her vision, hear vocies, and stagger him/her.
That's not a good sign no matter how you cut it.
2.
2. That's how Saren was indoctrinated.

1. So you are saying the prothean becons were reaper devices? Javik confirms his people placed them.

2. No, Saren was near Sovereign all the time. And then he was implented reaper tech by Sovereign.

[Erield]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Straw man argument is a straw man.  The argument is not whether the events in Arrival is canon (Object Rho, early Reaper arrival, and the Alpha Relay being blown up to stop them); the argument is whether Shepard is responsible for those actions.

As you've stated, the comic specifically states that Shepard is responsible.  However, there are also interviews where Hudson specifically states that no DLC, whether Day 1 or otherwise, is required for the main story of Mass Effect.  The supposition that Object Rho necessitates the Indoctrination of Shepard is in conflict with these two ideologies. 

The comic's few frames that directly reference Arrival and state that Shepard is responsible also conflicts with what has been stated in interviews.  One of them has to be right; one has to be wrong.  At this time, there's little or no point in getting into arguments over who's right and who isn't.  I truly feel this is an issue that Bioware should clarify.

[Arian Dynas]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Arrival was meant to be more important, but like many things in ME3 this never actually ended up being the case.

Also just because a comic is "canon" doesn't mean that its contents overwrite things that are established within the actual game.

They also said that they didn't expect people to think that the Crucible destroying the relays caused the same sort of explosion as the Arrival Relay explosion... Idk why they forgot about it but they did.

Finally, what about Shepards who do Arrival early on in ME2? Why aren't they picked up there and then if that's the reason for him being on Earth? Here's why: It's a plot device to get Shepard on Earth for the moment the invasion starts.


So yes, Arrival ended up being entirely pointless.

No, it had a point. If it was pointless, it would not be metioned and cut from the plot. 

Hence why I mentioned it.

Under a literal interpretation, Arrival was a literary red herring, entirely pointless.

Under IT, it's foreshadowing.

Which makes more sense to you, if you were the writer?

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

It was very significent. That's why if Shepard didn't do Arrival, Hackett sends a marine squad to take care of the astroid. Like I said before, the events themsleves were canon, no question. But wether or not Shepard did them... Those are not canon.

About the Mass Relays... there is a chance that blowing it up with an astroid is a bit different than with the crucible.

And yes, doing arrival was kind of pointless. Exactly like LOTSB.

Sorry, Liara still becomes the Shadow broker even if Shepard did not help her....The result of the dlc still happen even if the player doesn't play it, bw Just us a differnet means to get that results. If BW intended for Shepard to be indoctrinating because of arrival but the player didn't play arrival....Then BW would use a different menas. But the argument is mute, you still played Arrival any way.

[Arian Dynas]

Erield wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Straw man argument is a straw man.  The argument is not whether the events in Arrival is canon (Object Rho, early Reaper arrival, and the Alpha Relay being blown up to stop them); the argument is whether Shepard is responsible for those actions.

As you've stated, the comic specifically states that Shepard is responsible.  However, there are also interviews where Hudson specifically states that no DLC, whether Day 1 or otherwise, is required for the main story of Mass Effect.  The supposition that Object Rho necessitates the Indoctrination of Shepard is in conflict with these two ideologies. 

The comic's few frames that directly reference Arrival and state that Shepard is responsible also conflicts with what has been stated in interviews.  One of them has to be right; one has to be wrong.  At this time, there's little or no point in getting into arguments over who's right and who isn't.  I truly feel this is an issue that Bioware should clarify.

Don't call my argument a straw man when you are incapable of dismissing it. Old debating tactic, I know it very well, you're not going to make me panic.

What you failed to examine was I never stated that Conviction was stating Arrival's events took place. Conviction is explicitly about Vega, learning about Shepard's involvement with the Alpha Relay, and acting as his bodyguard from a horde of angry batarians who are out for his/her blood.

Arrival is canon. That's all there is to it.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Arrival was meant to be more important, but like many things in ME3 this never actually ended up being the case.

Also just because a comic is "canon" doesn't mean that its contents overwrite things that are established within the actual game.

They also said that they didn't expect people to think that the Crucible destroying the relays caused the same sort of explosion as the Arrival Relay explosion... Idk why they forgot about it but they did.

Finally, what about Shepards who do Arrival early on in ME2? Why aren't they picked up there and then if that's the reason for him being on Earth? Here's why: It's a plot device to get Shepard on Earth for the moment the invasion starts.


So yes, Arrival ended up being entirely pointless.

No, it had a point. If it was pointless, it would not be metioned and cut from the plot. 

Yeah you gain like 100 war assets for completing it... Big whoop.

[KingZayd]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Arrival was meant to be more important, but like many things in ME3 this never actually ended up being the case.

Also just because a comic is "canon" doesn't mean that its contents overwrite things that are established within the actual game.

They also said that they didn't expect people to think that the Crucible destroying the relays caused the same sort of explosion as the Arrival Relay explosion... Idk why they forgot about it but they did.

Finally, what about Shepards who do Arrival early on in ME2? Why aren't they picked up there and then if that's the reason for him being on Earth? Here's why: It's a plot device to get Shepard on Earth for the moment the invasion starts.


So yes, Arrival ended up being entirely pointless.

No, it had a point. If it was pointless, it would not be metioned and cut from the plot. 

Yeah you gain like 100 war assets for completing it... Big whoop.

pretty much everything in the game could be summarised that way if you wanted

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.So? It still hit him/her with a indoctriantion wave strong enough to give him/her vision, hear vocies, and stagger him/her.
That's not a good sign no matter how you cut it.
2.
2. That's how Saren was indoctrinated.

1. So you are saying the prothean becons were reaper devices? Javik confirms his people placed them.

2. No, Saren was near Sovereign all the time. And then he was implented reaper tech by Sovereign.

1.But you know that the artifact is reaper orgin. Point at the prothean beacon is grasping for straws when you know object rho is a reaper artifact.
2. Saren state he tried to limit his contact with Sovergn at first......It even says he planned to do that in ME:REVILATION....He still got indoctrinated.

[KingZayd]

Erield wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Straw man argument is a straw man.  The argument is not whether the events in Arrival is canon (Object Rho, early Reaper arrival, and the Alpha Relay being blown up to stop them); the argument is whether Shepard is responsible for those actions.

As you've stated, the comic specifically states that Shepard is responsible.  However, there are also interviews where Hudson specifically states that no DLC, whether Day 1 or otherwise, is required for the main story of Mass Effect.  The supposition that Object Rho necessitates the Indoctrination of Shepard is in conflict with these two ideologies. 

The comic's few frames that directly reference Arrival and state that Shepard is responsible also conflicts with what has been stated in interviews.  One of them has to be right; one has to be wrong.  At this time, there's little or no point in getting into arguments over who's right and who isn't.  I truly feel this is an issue that Bioware should clarify.

Correction:the supposition that the Indoctrination of Shepard REQUIRES Object Rho would be in conflict with those ideologies.

[Ageless Face]

Arian Dynas wrote...


You're missing the point. Those were examples, I never stated that Shepard "touched anything the Illusive Man touched."

Rana Thanoptis
Saren Arterius
Jack Harper
Should I keep going or do you see my point? These are people who had short term exposure at first, which drew them to the Reapers, leading to long term exposure, which has happened to Shepard time and time again.

Think of it like this. There is a rare disease among frogs, which infects the brain and causes them to be drawn to the presence of certain fishing birds, whom then eat the frogs, allowing the disease, which can only procreate in the stomachs of these sea birds, to grow, which then leads it to infect another frog which swims in the same water the bird drops a deuce in.

Indoctrination is similar, it pulls you toward circumstances that make it quicker and easier, and Shepard certainly hasn't been avoiding or ignoring reapers, has he?

Also, shouldn't the fact that there is even one exception point to the fact that there are others? This is simple logic here.

All of them were a long period of time near reaper tech. Again, it was never stated that indoctrination can be after a short exposure. TIM was a special case because the technmology he touched was special. 

Really, if everyone that were in a small amount of time near reaper tech, everyone on Earth will be indoctrinated, or everyone on Palavin. Not to mention Shepard's squad.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 15 juin 2012 - 12:09 .

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

Arrival was meant to be more important, but like many things in ME3 this never actually ended up being the case.

Also just because a comic is "canon" doesn't mean that its contents overwrite things that are established within the actual game.

They also said that they didn't expect people to think that the Crucible destroying the relays caused the same sort of explosion as the Arrival Relay explosion... Idk why they forgot about it but they did.

Finally, what about Shepards who do Arrival early on in ME2? Why aren't they picked up there and then if that's the reason for him being on Earth? Here's why: It's a plot device to get Shepard on Earth for the moment the invasion starts.


So yes, Arrival ended up being entirely pointless.

No, it had a point. If it was pointless, it would not be metioned and cut from the plot. 

Yeah you gain like 100 war assets for completing it... Big whoop.

And yet, you did it and some how you being hit with an indoctriantion wave strong enough to floor Shepard,give him /her visions and have voices in his/her head means he was not indoctrianted?
Let not forget TIM controling Shepard at the end of the game with indoctriantion now. 

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


You're missing the point. Those were examples, I never stated that Shepard "touched anything the Illusive Man touched."

Rana Thanoptis
Saren Arterius
Jack Harper
Should I keep going or do you see my point? These are people who had short term exposure at first, which drew them to the Reapers, leading to long term exposure, which has happened to Shepard time and time again.

Think of it like this. There is a rare disease among frogs, which infects the brain and causes them to be drawn to the presence of certain fishing birds, whom then eat the frogs, allowing the disease, which can only procreate in the stomachs of these sea birds, to grow, which then leads it to infect another frog which swims in the same water the bird drops a deuce in.

Indoctrination is similar, it pulls you toward circumstances that make it quicker and easier, and Shepard certainly hasn't been avoiding or ignoring reapers, has he?

Also, shouldn't the fact that there is even one exception point to the fact that there are others? This is simple logic here.

All of them were a long period of time near reaper tech. Again, it was never stated that indoctrination can be after a short exposure. TIM was a special case because the technmology he touched was special. 

Really, if everyone that were in a small amount of time near reaper tech, everyone on Earth will be indoctrinated, or everyone on Palavin.

TIM, Shepard and Kendra were all in contact with this "special tech". The reaper artifacts.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...


You're missing the point. Those were examples, I never stated that Shepard "touched anything the Illusive Man touched."

Rana Thanoptis
Saren Arterius
Jack Harper
Should I keep going or do you see my point? These are people who had short term exposure at first, which drew them to the Reapers, leading to long term exposure, which has happened to Shepard time and time again.

Think of it like this. There is a rare disease among frogs, which infects the brain and causes them to be drawn to the presence of certain fishing birds, whom then eat the frogs, allowing the disease, which can only procreate in the stomachs of these sea birds, to grow, which then leads it to infect another frog which swims in the same water the bird drops a deuce in.

Indoctrination is similar, it pulls you toward circumstances that make it quicker and easier, and Shepard certainly hasn't been avoiding or ignoring reapers, has he?

Also, shouldn't the fact that there is even one exception point to the fact that there are others? This is simple logic here.

All of them were a long period of time near reaper tech. Again, it was never stated that indoctrination can be after a short exposure. TIM was a special case because the technmology he touched was special. 

Really, if everyone that were in a small amount of time near reaper tech, everyone on Earth will be indoctrinated, or everyone on Palavin.

Saren was on and off contact...So was 
Rana Thanoptis.

[Arian Dynas]

dreman9999 wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, in defense of Arrival, even though you argue it is not canon (which, since Mass Effect: Conviction is a comic, and all comics are canon, QED, Mass Effect: Conviction and all of it's contents are canon, and since even more to the point, James directly references the events of Conviction in the game itself, I can't really see the point in arguing.) think about this for a moment.

Arrival was billed as the bridge into ME3. Yet, it is somehow unimportant?

According to you, Rho did nothing, and was therefore not significant.

Which also means since we see it in the literal ending you defend so viciously, everything we learned about Mass Relays blowing up was wrong.

And since according to your claim that Arrival is not canon and that Shepard would be picked up anyway because of his involvement with Cerberus (which strangely enough, wasn't enough to pick him up for before now. Huh.) then Arrival was pretty much entirely pointless.

Seems kinda like a waste, doesn't it?

It was very significent. That's why if Shepard didn't do Arrival, Hackett sends a marine squad to take care of the astroid. Like I said before, the events themsleves were canon, no question. But wether or not Shepard did them... Those are not canon.

About the Mass Relays... there is a chance that blowing it up with an astroid is a bit different than with the crucible.

And yes, doing arrival was kind of pointless. Exactly like LOTSB.

Sorry, Liara still becomes the Shadow broker even if Shepard did not help her....The result of the dlc still happen even if the player doesn't play it, bw Just us a differnet means to get that results. If BW intended for Shepard to be indoctrinating because of arrival but the player didn't play arrival....Then BW would use a different menas. But the argument is mute, you still played Arrival any way.

Under canon, which yes, with Bioware is limited and mostly free, but there are certain things, like Shepard is always a human, for instance, and not say an Asari, that are constant.

A few of these;

Shepard is a human, who was born in the year 2154, on April 11th.
Shepard joined the Systems Alliance military for one reason or another.
Shepard distinguished himself or herself in some way during his/her service.
Shepard was assigned to the Normandy
Shepard met and recruited Garrus Vakarian and Urdnot Wrex (even though you could skip recruiting these characters, Shepards who did so are non-canon, since they are unsupported in sequels)
Shepard defeated Saren
Shepard was killed and resurrected by the Lazarus project
Shepard entered the body of a Reaper and recovered a Reaper device, which was integrated into the Normandy.
Shepard defeated the Collectors
Shepard destroyed the Alpha Relay, earning the ire of the Batarians (if your Shepard did not do this, then they are in defiance of events that took place in Mass Effect: Conviction, and your Shepard is therefore non canon.)
Shepard was assigned James Vega as his bodyguard
Shepard escaped the attack on Earth

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...



Yeah you gain like 100 war assets for completing it... Big whoop.

And yet, you did it and some how you being hit with an indoctriantion wave strong enough to floor Shepard,give him /her visions and have voices in his/her head means he was not indoctrianted?
Let not forget TIM controling Shepard at the end of the game with indoctriantion now. 

My canon Shepard didn't play Arrival, I avoided it for metagaming purposes (the idea of being forced into destroying a relay and killing 300,000 batarians didn't appeal to me). I was then told in ME3 that marines were sent to do it instead and sighed a sigh of relief that my Shepard wasn't responsible anyway.


The point is that Arrival isn't canon... So not everyone got abused by Dr Kenson and Object Rho.