145 réponses à ce sujet

[MadRabbit999]

I do apologise for the long read and the occasional grammar "WTF", but if you have a couple of minutes to spare and come back with some constructive argument, I would appreciate your feedback and opinions.

To begin with: no,  I am not saying that pretty people have no rights to exist in games, I would be a hypocrite since I take good care of my own personal looks by spending many hours at the GYM every week, and take good care of my appearance.

However, there is an issue with a trend that most games seems to be following nowadays, and that is "eliminating all realistic-looking people form a scene".

I am finding that, when I play games like ME, I often seem to find myself walking through big, empty rooms full of pretty mannequins that can speak and move, I do not see people, but puppets and clones.

However when I close my eyes and just hear their sounds and voices (using a 7.1 headset), I feel truly in a living and breathing world, because the voices and the sounds are all real, as real as they can get, these people are believable. This ends the moment I open my eyes and I associate the voices to the faces, which most seems completely out of place.

This is the reason I love the character Tali, because she does not need to bat her eyelashes or appeal to me for her looks, she needs to work harder than the other pretty characters to be liked because all the social interactions are limited and mostly comes from her voice and personality.
If Tali wore big concealing robes that did not show her whole figure, butt and chest, it would be absolutely the perfect example on how we can be really attracted to personality when we are not "bribed" by the super model looks. Seeing that Tali's face was done from the face of a super model was really disheartening for me, and almost ruined the reason why I cared for this character.

Complete opposite to Tali, I would say Miranda is the best example on how a very passive-aggressive and self-cantered personality can be masked by pretty looks.
If you would put a plain or unattractive girl instead of Miranda looks, I hardly believe people would put up more than 2 minutes with her nonsense. Now, I do realise you might be fond of this character for reason beyond her looks, but when I see the cultural impact that she has left in comparison with other characters, all I find online about her, are jokes about cameltoes, butts and boobs, people barely mention how interesting was her background or her personality, and to me this means that people (At least the majority) are left with a visual impact much stronger than any other inner, emotional impact she might have tried leaving.

I wish we could see more "real" beauty in videogames people, and less of the fake super-glamour looks, so that people would finally deepen their relations with this fictional character, beyond the "pin up poster impressions" and talk about these characters for many years to come, and about how great their persona were and not "Do you remember Miranda from ME? Yeah, "DAT ASS".

I cannot think of many games that uses real faces, the only one I can recently think was Assassin's Creed 2, but not the main characters, I am talking about the stories NPC, which looked like rough people that lived in the 1400, with skin problems, overweight and aging... to me they felt the most believable, like something out of a movie.

I do realise that the costs for a project that involves a greater variety in appearance would become more heavy, but I believe it would deepen the overall impact on the players and force the writers to create more likable characters, instead to lazy out on some of them, hoping their good looks can save them.

I also realise that games are in fact games, not movies or reality, but games like Mass Effect, put great emphasis on the stories, and they want to be remembered for their characters and experience, they are not just the average 1990's game, this is a new genre of story telling, and so I believe more effort should be put into making it look more realistic, and cinematographic.

Thanks for reading ^^

[Peranor]

Overly sexy?

Ms and Mr Ugly Shepard would like to have a word with you.





But seriously. I see what you mean. And I agree to some extent.

What I liked about Tali was that so many people loved her even though no one knew what she looked like under her helmet before ME3. She could have been butt ugly but people still loved her. They loved her for her personality (at least I like to think that). That's why I think that Bioware kind of chickened out by giving her the face of a Miss England model. 
Though I think that covering up Tali in a burka is a bit over the top.

Miranda would be a better example of a character who was created to be attractive for the sake of being attractive. She was meant to be eye candy. But good looks or not, I still think that Miranda is an interesting character. Though I suspect that her romance thread would have a lot less pages by now if she was ugly, or at least had a more ordinary look

Modifié par anorling, 13 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[dreman9999]

But ME has ugly people. It's just most of your crew is not ugly nor super beautiful... Also, no matter how you slice it, you can't do space travel and be overweight or in the military and be over weight. And base on the lore, gene theorpy gets rid of obesity.

Miranda and Liara have there reasons for being who they are. Ashley is not super beautiful but has a clear reason to have a fit body as well as Jacob, James, and Kaiden as well.

[MadRabbit999]

anorling wrote...



Overly sexy?

Ms and Mr Ugly Shepard would like to have a word with you.





But seriously. I see what you mean. And I agree to some extent.
Though I think that covering up Tali in a burka is a bit over the top.
Miranda would be a better example of a character who was created to be attractive for the sake of being attractive. She was meant to be eye candy. But good looks or not, I still think that Miranda is an interesting character. Though I suspect that her romance thread would have a lot less pages by now if she was ugly, or at least had a more ordinary look

I think I will be having ngihtmares for the next 50 years.. thanks! 

Some of the more original Tali concepts portrays Tali with long rugged robes of some kind, and gasmasks-like designs... makes her almost look like a post nuclear survivor, I liked those a lot, because you cannot even tell if it is a male or female in the suit, and so it makes the character more mysterious and, you have to base yourself compeltely on her personality to read her.

But that's exactly my point about her romance thread... I am not saying she should be ugly... I am saying people like her for her looks, and I find this a very hollow experience in a game where characters personalities needs to come to life as much as they can if they wantto look realisitc.

Also you do not have to be a super model to be physically attractive

dreman9999 wrote...

But ME has ugly people. It's just most
of your crew is not ugly nor super beautiful... Also, no matter how you
slice it, you can't do space travel and be overweight or in the
military and be over weight. And base on the lore, gene theorpy gets rid
of obesity.

Miranda and Liara have there reasons for being who
they are. Ashley is not super beautiful but has a clear reason to have a
fit body as well as Jacob, James, and Kaiden as well.

Ok, I am not necessarily talking about fat.. I am talking about how beleivable their faces are in the context hey are in.

Liara used to be a recluse scientist.. a geek, have you ever seen how geek women looks? Nothing like Liara, thier hygene is often poor and their clothing terrible, this has in no way been reflected on Liara, which was meant to be the hottest babe in ME1.

Miranda's reasons are just there for the audience eye candy and nothing more.. not once Miranda's beauty played part in a mission or was essential to her survival.

Ashley's face, for a person who keeps being in the frontline is way too clean and full of make up. Check out real female soldiers in the army, they do not wear make up most cases (Unles in formal occasions), and either have bad skin for being often exposed to the sun and bad weather conditions or scars, also they can be quite bulky and man-ish... but certanly nothing like Ashley.

I'll give you Jacob because he is fitness obsessed.

But Kaiden looks like he could be playing an advert about men aftershave...  seriously why did he chose a carreer in the military is beyond me, he could be a playboy millionare with his looks.

You know who I can beleive to be  the most realistic character? Zaeed. He looks like what he is, a villain, a scumbag, and a guy who survived a long, deadly life. Imagine if Zaeed looked like George Clooney, this is what ME feels like to me.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 13 juin 2012 - 11:01 .

[Peranor]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

anorling wrote...



Overly sexy?

Ms and Mr Ugly Shepard would like to have a word with you.

*snip*



But seriously. I see what you mean. And I agree to some extent.
Though I think that covering up Tali in a burka is a bit over the top.
Miranda would be a better example of a character who was created to be attractive for the sake of being attractive. She was meant to be eye candy. But good looks or not, I still think that Miranda is an interesting character. Though I suspect that her romance thread would have a lot less pages by now if she was ugly, or at least had a more ordinary look

I think I will be having ngihtmares for the next 50 years.. thanks! 

Some of the more original Tali concepts portrays Tali with long rugged robes of some kind, and gasmasks-like designs... makes her almost look like a post nuclear survivor, I liked those a lot, because you cannot even tell if it is a male or female in the suit, and so it makes the character more mysterious and, you have to base yourself compeltely on her personality to read her.

But that's exactly my point about her romance thread... I am not saying she should be ugly... I am saying people like her for her looks, and I find this a very hollow experience in a game where characters personalities needs to come to life as much as they can if they wantto look realisitc.

Also you do not have to be a super model to be physically attractive

Yeah, I edited my post a bit regarding Tali.

What I liked about Tali was that so many people loved her even though no one knew what she looked like under her helmet before ME3. She could have been butt ugly but people still loved her. They loved her for her personality (at least I like to think that). That's why I think that Bioware kind of chickened out by giving her the face of a Miss England model.

Modifié par anorling, 13 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[P0br3]

Yeah, but you must agree that Tali has "DAT HIPS". No argument there.
But I agree you with in some.

[Peranor]

P0br3 wrote...

Yeah, but you must agree that Tali has "DAT HIPS". No argument there.
But I agree you with in some.

Yeah, 'dat hips' is true. But I don't think those hips would have mattered much if she had looked like The Predator under the helmet



Oh, Lets not forget about Diana Allers. She may have an attractive body. But her face looks like a trainwreck.
But to be honest I think that Bioware intended for her to be attractive. But somewhere in the process of rendering her face something went horribly wrong...

Modifié par anorling, 13 juin 2012 - 11:04 .

[dreman9999]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

anorling wrote...



Overly sexy?

Ms and Mr Ugly Shepard would like to have a word with you.





But seriously. I see what you mean. And I agree to some extent.
Though I think that covering up Tali in a burka is a bit over the top.
Miranda would be a better example of a character who was created to be attractive for the sake of being attractive. She was meant to be eye candy. But good looks or not, I still think that Miranda is an interesting character. Though I suspect that her romance thread would have a lot less pages by now if she was ugly, or at least had a more ordinary look

I think I will be having ngihtmares for the next 50 years.. thanks! 

Some of the more original Tali concepts portrays Tali with long rugged robes of some kind, and gasmasks-like designs... makes her almost look like a post nuclear survivor, I liked those a lot, because you cannot even tell if it is a male or female in the suit, and so it makes the character more mysterious and, you have to base yourself compeltely on her personality to read her.

But that's exactly my point about her romance thread... I am not saying she should be ugly... I am saying people like her for her looks, and I find this a very hollow experience in a game where characters personalities needs to come to life as much as they can if they wantto look realisitc.

Also you do not have to be a super model to be physically attractive

dreman9999 wrote...

But ME has ugly people. It's just most
of your crew is not ugly nor super beautiful... Also, no matter how you
slice it, you can't do space travel and be overweight or in the
military and be over weight. And base on the lore, gene theorpy gets rid
of obesity.

Miranda and Liara have there reasons for being who
they are. Ashley is not super beautiful but has a clear reason to have a
fit body as well as Jacob, James, and Kaiden as well.

Ok, I am not necessarily talking about fat.. I am talking about how beleivable their faces are in the context hey are in.

Liara used to be a recluse scientist.. a geek, have you ever seen how geek women looks? Nothing like Liara, thier hygene is often poor and their clothing terrible, this has in no way been reflected on Liara, which was meant to be the hottest babe in ME1.

Miranda's reasons are just there for the audience eye candy and nothing more.. not once Miranda's beauty played part in a mission or was essential to her survival.

Ashley's face, for a person who keeps being in the frontline is way too clean and full of make up. Check out real female soldiers in the army, they do not wear make up most cases (Unles in formal occasions), and either have bad skin for being often exposed to the sun and bad weather conditions or scars... but certanly nothing like Ashley.

I'll give you Jacob because he is fitness obsessed.

But Kaiden looks like he coudl be playing an advert about men aftershave...

You know how I can beleive and it is the most realistic character? Zaeed. He looks like what he is, a villain, a scumbag, and a guy who survived a deadly life. Imagine if Zaeed looked like George Clooney

Liara is an asari. She has an excuse for her looks.

Miranda's reason was not there because of just a need for a sexy woman. It was to also illustrate to obsesion a person can have for genetic perfection that is obvious to happen in a sociaty the can mode gens. This is in the codex from ME1.

Kaiden still has a build of a soldier.
And with female solders like Ashley, the always have that clean look. That with every modern solder who is not on the frontline in a war...And Ashley is not in the front line of the war at all.

And with the fact that you brought up Zaeeds looks proves that ME is not oversex at all. As I said before not everyone is beuitiful, Zaeeds and example . Heck, so is James. Given time I can get pics of planty ugly and averge looking people in ME.

[dreman9999]

P0br3 wrote...

Yeah, but you must agree that Tali has "DAT HIPS". No argument there.
But I agree you with in some.

Any arguement on how a persons body looks is too sexy is negated by the fact that they have to make sure there body is athleticly health for space travel.

Athleticly heath bodies have a way of being sexy.

[Peranor]

Ashley looked quite ordinary in ME1. She wasn't ugly, but not a super model either.
It's just in ME3 they tried to sex her up. Though I think that the only thing they achieved by doing that was making her look more like a drag queen.

[Silent Fantasy]

Allers looks like a chipmunk.

[masseffect420]

I see the end of the line?!

[Helios969]

Well you have to consider games are generally catering to the younger male crowd. And I have no specific statistics, but I'm guessing people coming up with these characters are predominantly male. I'd had preferred a more realistic approach to "sexiness," but it just comes with the territory.

And when I compare it to some of the anime I've seen, ME characters are not that over the top. HOTD comes to mind.

[MadRabbit999]

dreman9999 wrote...

Liara is an asari. She has an excuse for her looks.

Miranda's reason was not there because of just a need for a sexy woman. It was to also illustrate to obsesion a person can have for genetic perfection that is obvious to happen in a sociaty the can mode gens. This is in the codex from ME1.

Kaiden still has a build of a soldier.
And with female solders like Ashley, the always have that clean look. That with every modern solder who is not on the frontline in a war...And Ashley is not in the front line of the war at all.

And with the fact that you brought up Zaeeds looks proves that ME is not oversex at all. As I said before not everyone is beuitiful, Zaeeds and example . Heck, so is James. Given time I can get pics of planty ugly and averge looking people in ME.

Once more, do not consfuse when  I say "overly sexy" I do not mean just pretty characters, that is why in my OP I made the reference of mannequin, because they also do not look beliavable.

The Illusive man, Anderson, and Zaeed, to me they are trully the only ones that looks exactly what they are, and they make perfect sense.. as well as looking realistic. Their realism comes for mthe fact that their looks do not feel artificial, but taken from actors photos, and not super models photos, but actually charming looking actors withotu th eneed t obe beautiful to be appealing.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but I am not sure in what other way to explain it.

[Jamie9]

Hey MadRabbit! What you have described is possibly what I consider to be one of the biggest problems in visual media we have right now. And it's much worse for women.

Any truly mature human being would look past Miranda's looks. They'd see that she's cold-hearted. But she's become that way because of her control-obsessed father. When her sister is in danger, Miranda's feelings come out, and we see that she does care.

If you help her, she accepts you. You've gotten past the emotional barriers she's built up over the years and you can get to know her more.

Pretty much every character in Mass Effect has actual emotional reasons for how they behave. People who just post about their sexual side are either:

A: Joking
OR
B: Immature

[masseffect420]

Jamie9 wrote...

Hey MadRabbit! What you have described is possibly what I consider to be one of the biggest problems in visual media we have right now. And it's much worse for women.

Any truly mature human being would look past Miranda's looks. They'd see that she's cold-hearted. But she's become that way because of her control-obsessed father. When her sister is in danger, Miranda's feelings come out, and we see that she does care.

If you help her, she accepts you. You've gotten past the emotional barriers she's built up over the years and you can get to know her more.

Pretty much every character in Mass Effect has actual emotional reasons for how they behave. People who just post about their sexual side are either:

A: Joking
OR
B: Immature

Or
C. Does not have a real Girlfriend to play with
<3:police::wizard:

[MadRabbit999]

Jamie9 wrote...

Hey MadRabbit! What you have described is possibly what I consider to be one of the biggest problems in visual media we have right now. And it's much worse for women.

Any truly mature human being would look past Miranda's looks. They'd see that she's cold-hearted. But she's become that way because of her control-obsessed father. When her sister is in danger, Miranda's feelings come out, and we see that she does care.

If you help her, she accepts you. You've gotten past the emotional barriers she's built up over the years and you can get to know her more.

Pretty much every character in Mass Effect has actual emotional reasons for how they behave. People who just post about their sexual side are either:

A: Joking
OR
B: Immature

Ironically, I consider immature, that the audience in order to buy a modern product that involves females, needs to find sex appeal in it.... if it didn't matter, then there would be no need to put overly fake-looking beautiful characters, the game would sell based on their personalities and stories, but guess what, it doesn't, proof that Ashley and Jack had a beauty make over in ME3 in order t obecome more likable.

masseffect420 wrote...

Or
C. Does not have a real Girlfriend to play with
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

I have seen you positng that line so many times, I am starting to beleive you are the one hiding something.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 13 juin 2012 - 11:27 .

[dreman9999]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Liara is an asari. She has an excuse for her looks.

Miranda's reason was not there because of just a need for a sexy woman. It was to also illustrate to obsesion a person can have for genetic perfection that is obvious to happen in a sociaty the can mode gens. This is in the codex from ME1.

Kaiden still has a build of a soldier.
And with female solders like Ashley, the always have that clean look. That with every modern solder who is not on the frontline in a war...And Ashley is not in the front line of the war at all.

And with the fact that you brought up Zaeeds looks proves that ME is not oversex at all. As I said before not everyone is beuitiful, Zaeeds and example . Heck, so is James. Given time I can get pics of planty ugly and averge looking people in ME.

Once more, do not consfuse when  I say "overly sexy" I do not mean just pretty characters, that is why in my OP I made the reference of mannequin, because they also do not look beliavable.

The Illusive man, Anderson, and Zaeed, to me they are trully the only ones that looks exactly what they are, and they make perfect sense.. as well as looking realistic. Their realism comes for mthe fact that their looks do not feel artificial, but taken from actors photos, and not super models photos, but actually charming looking actors withotu th eneed t obe beautiful to be appealing.

Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but I am not sure in what other way to explain it.

It's almost like your saying pretty people don't exsists...Also, Miranda's looks is from an actress is actually good. Yet you seem bent on saying She looks artifical because she is beutiful, yet say charaters who are averge looking but base on actors arn't?

[dreman9999]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Hey MadRabbit! What you have described is possibly what I consider to be one of the biggest problems in visual media we have right now. And it's much worse for women.

Any truly mature human being would look past Miranda's looks. They'd see that she's cold-hearted. But she's become that way because of her control-obsessed father. When her sister is in danger, Miranda's feelings come out, and we see that she does care.

If you help her, she accepts you. You've gotten past the emotional barriers she's built up over the years and you can get to know her more.

Pretty much every character in Mass Effect has actual emotional reasons for how they behave. People who just post about their sexual side are either:

A: Joking
OR
B: Immature

Ironically, I consider immature, that the audience in order to buy a modern product that involves females, needs to find sex appeal in it.... if it didn't matter, then there would be no need to put overly fake-looking beautiful characters, the game would sell based on their personalities and stories, but guess what, it doesn't, proof that Ashley and Jack had a beauty make over in ME3 in order t obecome more likable.

Then why I s Tali so popular?

[masseffect420]

Ironically, I consider immature, that the audience in order to buy a modern product that involves females, needs to find sex appeal in it.... if it didn't matter, then there would be no need to put overly fake-looking beautiful characters, the game would sell based on their personalities and stories, but guess what, it doesn't, proof that Ashley and Jack had a beauty make over in ME3 in order t obecome more likable.

[quote]masseffect420 wrote...

Or
C. Does not have a real Girlfriend to play with
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

[/quote]

I have seen you positng that line so many times, I am starting to beleive you are the one hiding something.

I never said any thing like that before, you must love Dragon ball X, get Girlfriend and you will see.



[/quote]

Modifié par masseffect420, 13 juin 2012 - 11:35 .

[JadedLibertine]

MadRabbit999 wrote...




Ok, I am not necessarily talking about fat.. I am talking about how beleivable their faces are in the context hey are in.

Liara used to be a recluse scientist.. a geek, have you ever seen how geek women looks? Nothing like Liara, thier hygene is often poor and their clothing terrible, this has in no way been reflected on Liara, which was meant to be the hottest babe in ME1.

Miranda's reasons are just there for the audience eye candy and nothing more.. not once Miranda's beauty played part in a mission or was essential to her survival.

Ashley's face, for a person who keeps being in the frontline is way too clean and full of make up. Check out real female soldiers in the army, they do not wear make up most cases (Unles in formal occasions), and either have bad skin for being often exposed to the sun and bad weather conditions or scars, also they can be quite bulky and man-ish... but certanly nothing like Ashley.

I'll give you Jacob because he is fitness obsessed.

But Kaiden looks like he could be playing an advert about men aftershave...  seriously why did he chose a carreer in the military is beyond me, he could be a playboy millionare with his looks.

You know who I can beleive to be  the most realistic character? Zaeed. He looks like what he is, a villain, a scumbag, and a guy who survived a long, deadly life. Imagine if Zaeed looked like George Clooney, this is what ME feels like to me.

That is most ungentlemanly behaviour, surely even on her of all places you could show a little gallantry and chivalry.  Maybe the sample I know is not representative but many of the geeks I come across have personal hygiene that is beyond reproach.

Liara is an Asari who all place great importance on appearance and physical beauty.  Ashley and Kaidan would also have the benefit of the amazingly powerful grooming and skincare products which will no doubt be available in the future.

There was no justification for making ME3 Ashley look like she's just come from lip syncing for her life in a future episode of Rupaul's Drag Race.

[Ponei]

AGREED, TALI IS THE BEST

[Helios969]

dreman9999 wrote...

Then why I s Tali so popular?

It's the hips:)

[dreman9999]

Helios969 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Then why I s Tali so popular?

It's the hips:)

Better question.....Why is Garrus so popular to romance?

[Rombomm]

I get what you are saying, but I think Miranda was a HORRIBLE example to use for this.
Yes, she is sexy and has ridiculously proportioned body parts - but that good backstory you mentioned she has? That's kind of part of it...