196 réponses à ce sujet

[Pitznik]

Malditor wrote...


Not to mention the health/shield numbers they have.

When you can become almost invisible health and shield bonuses don't seem to mean that much. Infiltrators can't take much damage, but they can avoid being hit.

Say what you want, but Infiltrators combine great damage output, decent survivability, and great utility. They are truly kings of ME3 MP, it wouldn't hurt to buff few classes so they would be more comparable to Infiltrators.

[ToaOrka]

*coughcough* Adrenaline Rush, Hunter Mode Pre-nerf, Tactical Scan, Blood lust, ect...*coughcough*
Bottom Line is other classes DO have damage bonuses, you're just mad they aren't as high as the Infiltrator's.

[Malditor]

Pitznik wrote...

Malditor wrote...


Not to mention the health/shield numbers they have.

When you can become almost invisible health and shield bonuses don't seem to mean that much. Infiltrators can't take much damage, but they can avoid being hit.

Say what you want, but Infiltrators combine great damage output, decent survivability, and great utility. They are truly kings of ME3 MP, it wouldn't hurt to buff few classes so they would be more comparable to Infiltrators.

You've never seen an Infiltrator while after cloaked? Certain things negate the cloak, besides the instant decloak bug. Even if you cloak away from all enemies there are some that still see you. Does it give some protection, of course it does, can't dispute that.

Modifié par Malditor, 13 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[Ashen One]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

You can't have it both ways with that argument.  If you choose weapons over powers then you should incur a sizeable penalty to your power cooldowns which equates to DoT reduction via lost TC bonuses/utility/survivability.  With the current mechanic you can circumvent the cooldown entirely as long as you don't let your TC run its full course.

I could apply that same linear line of thinking to power classes that invest points into their powers as opposed to weapons, but honestly I don't see a point. People are just going to continue to whine anyway, so whatever.

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...
And I take it you're admitting that you pulled that 20+ sec cooldown figure out your arse just to lend some credibility to your post.

But really I'm not. Javelin and a Claymore puts TC recharge at 24.50 seconds. And that's with the power recharge speed evolution at rank 5. I'm guessing most people don't take that though, because recharge speed doesn't matter right?

Hypothetically I could just equip my heaviest weapons, right? But then people will go on to post threads about how infiltrators never go for objectives. It's like a non-stop cycle of constant whining about the class in general.

Unbelievable.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 13 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[VRtheTrooper]

stop using TC... ...there....balanced. (trolling)

i'm sure BW gets that some people aren't happy with it. posting 20 threads a day won't change the rate that any adjustments will be made.

[Pitznik]

Malditor wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Malditor wrote...


Not to mention the health/shield numbers they have.

When you can become almost invisible health and shield bonuses don't seem to mean that much. Infiltrators can't take much damage, but they can avoid being hit.

Say what you want, but Infiltrators combine great damage output, decent survivability, and great utility. They are truly kings of ME3 MP, it wouldn't hurt to buff few classes so they would be more comparable to Infiltrators.

You've never seen an Infiltrator while after cloaked? Certain things negate the cloak, besides the instant decloak bug. Even if you cloak away from all enemies there are some that still see you. Does it give some protection, of course it does, can't dispute that.

That's why I said almost invisible, I didn't mean the actual ingame gfx I am just saying that Infiltrators do have a tool that increases their survivability, which is somewhat balanced with other classes' defensive tools, like TA, or simply high shields. But damage output is still much higher on Infiltrator, without anything that compensates for that difference.

I'm not a great pro-buff person, but logic presented by people who disagree with OP is flawed. Infiltrators are so called weapon based class receiving power bonuses from their abilities (and I don't mean passive who everyone has), so there is no reason to give weapon damage bonuses to so called power based classes. Just that.

[Ashen One]

Pitznik wrote...

Krogan Sentinel doesn't have cd based powers worth using, weight capacity isn't really so great for him.

Yes he does. Tech Armor can be used to chain stagger and kill enemies in combination with melee, and Incinerate/Lift Grenade is one of the most reliable Fire Explosions in the game. Tech Armor can also deny crowds of enemies access to certain areas of the map completely if your cooldown is high enough. Spamming TA detonations from cover can easily prevent a hack from being overrun without exposing yourself to any damage whatsoever.

Pitznik wrote...
Quick question - how does damage boost from tactical cloak affecting
powers makes sense on Infiltrator, who you consider to be weapon based
class?

Because Infiltrators are Combat/Tech, like I posted on the front page. The majority of it's damage comes from weapon, but they are not strictly a weapon class. Personally, I think that pure power classes should be able to inflict more damage with their powers (adepts already do this), and the Soldier should do more damage with weapons than the Infiltrator. Preferrably by buffing the other classes, instead of nerfing the infiltrator, and buffing the enemies to the point where they are as annoying as the Geth.

Soldiers are a "weapon" class, and yet Adrenaline Rush increases the damage of their grenade powers. Do they need a nerf too?

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 13 juin 2012 - 06:57 .

[Princess Rolf]

OP. Stop your whining about TC. Soldier, Engineer and Sentinel has other powers that do damage, so compare the class, not just one skill.

[MacGarrus]

Why should my heavy Krogan Sentinel be relegated to "support role". Support role is just fancy talk for "backup". The real reason people cry for Infiltrator nerfs is because they render every other class redundant. They have the best defence, the best offence and can carry the most powerful weapons. What possible reason would I have to play any other class if the Infiltrator can surpass it in effectiveness? The class is leaps and bounds ahead of every other class and requires some kind of balancing to make them less dominant. No i'm not an e-peen ****, I want to be useful to the team though and if i'm not playing an Infiltrator i'm not being as useful as I could be.

Tactical Cloak is the most obvious candidate for nerfs but that wouldn't really affect anyone at all. They'd still be the best by far. So instead, cut their shields and health big time. This rewards the skilled and punishes the weak. There's no arguing that an unskilled player as an infiltrator can play leagues above his skill level thanks to the instant agro-killer and damage boost Tactical Cloak, having as much health and shields as the "support role" variants of the race as well as race specific powers such as Energy Drain and Proximity Mine.

[Pitznik]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Yes he does. Tech Armor can be used to chain stagger and kill enemies in combination with melee, and Incinerate/Lift Grenade is one of the most reliable Fire Explosions in the game. Tech Armor can also deny crowds of enemies access to certain areas of the map completely if your cooldown is high enough. Spamming TA detonations from cover can easily prevent a hack from being overrun without exposing yourself to any damage whatsoever.

Lets just say I disagree on TA explosion having any real value aside from killing husks/swarmers/fun. Its use is extremely situational to really care about cooldown. Incinerate isn't so great either, and Fire Explosions are difficult to setup reliably.

Ashen Earth wrote...

Because Infiltrators are Combat/Tech, like I posted on the front page. The majority of it's damage comes from weapon, but they are not strictly a weapon class. Personally, I think that pure power classes should be able to inflict more damage with their powers (adepts already do this), and the Soldier should do more damage with weapons than the Infiltrator. Preferrably by buffing the other classes, instead of nerfing the infiltrator, and buffing the enemies to the point where they are as annoying as the Geth.

Soldiers are a "weapon" class, and yet Adrenaline Rush increases the damage of their grenade powers. Do they need a nerf too?

So Infiltrators by being Combat/Tech get access to Combat powers, Tech powers and somehow also they are ok with having weapon damage boosts, but Sentinels being Tech/Biotic get access to Tech powers, Biotic powers but somehow are not ok with weapon damage boosts, despite being able to equip exactly the same weapons and having exactly the same passive weapon and power related bonuses? What is exactly so great about having Tech and Biotic powers together that justifies not having the right to get some weapon damage boosts? Seems to me like being Combat is the right to be better, no downsides but only advantages.

Also, how you came up with that typology anyway? When I look on human, drell or asari vanguard the word "combat" doesn't exactly comes to mind, since they have not a single combat power between them, yet to justify your theory that "only combat classes can get bonuses to weapon damage" you are making them combat/biotic hybrid, even if nothing suggests that. Krogan Vanguard with his combat Carnage seems to be that exception you see in everything that doesn't fit your theory, and Vanguard class is just biotics. Biotics who can get weapon damage boost through use of Biotic Power! Oh no, and its a whole class, my beatiful theory is broken, can't label the whole class an exception!

About soldiers - no, they do not need a nerf, it just shows that your theory about dividing classes between weapon users and power users is just silly, because all classes rely on both.

Modifié par Pitznik, 13 juin 2012 - 07:30 .

[NewStrings]

WHY?

If I'm on Quarian against Geth (any Quarian) I have literally no offensive powers except for my TC damage bonus. You guys can warp or throw or shockwave or concuss enemies to death. All I can do is sabotage geth and make them stand still for a second or two.

[Ramsutin]

lol no. L2P other classes. Get friends to play with, form biotic teams ot tech teams. Don't cry for buffs for classes you can't play with. And Iike how someone said that every class deals same ammount of damge over time. Ever heard of eagle and krysae?

[nicethugbert]

You guys are missing the point.

TC is UNFAIR because it DUMPS AGGRO ON YOUR TEAM. Therefore, non-infiltrators need better DEFENCE to deal with the eztra aggro.

[DayusMakhina]

MacGarrus wrote...

Why should my heavy Krogan Sentinel be relegated to "support role". Support role is just fancy talk for "backup". The real reason people cry for Infiltrator nerfs is because they render every other class redundant. They have the best defence, the best offence and can carry the most powerful weapons. What possible reason would I have to play any other class if the Infiltrator can surpass it in effectiveness? The class is leaps and bounds ahead of every other class and requires some kind of balancing to make them less dominant. No i'm not an e-peen ****, I want to be useful to the team though and if i'm not playing an Infiltrator i'm not being as useful as I could be.

Tactical Cloak is the most obvious candidate for nerfs but that wouldn't really affect anyone at all. They'd still be the best by far. So instead, cut their shields and health big time. This rewards the skilled and punishes the weak. There's no arguing that an unskilled player as an infiltrator can play leagues above his skill level thanks to the instant agro-killer and damage boost Tactical Cloak, having as much health and shields as the "support role" variants of the race as well as race specific powers such as Energy Drain and Proximity Mine.

Every other class is redundant? Sorry, but you cannot be taken seriously if you spout absolute nonsense like that.

Adepts are just as powerful, some Engineers are equally as powerful. Vanguards are equally very powerful.

[holdenagincourt]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Krogan Sentinel doesn't have cd based powers worth using, weight capacity isn't really so great for him.

Yes he does. Tech Armor can be used to chain stagger and kill enemies in combination with melee, and Incinerate/Lift Grenade is one of the most reliable Fire Explosions in the game. Tech Armor can also deny crowds of enemies access to certain areas of the map completely if your cooldown is high enough. Spamming TA detonations from cover can easily prevent a hack from being overrun without exposing yourself to any damage whatsoever.

Pitznik wrote...
Quick question - how does damage boost from tactical cloak affecting
powers makes sense on Infiltrator, who you consider to be weapon based
class?

Because Infiltrators are Combat/Tech, like I posted on the front page. The majority of it's damage comes from weapon, but they are not strictly a weapon class. Personally, I think that pure power classes should be able to inflict more damage with their powers (adepts already do this), and the Soldier should do more damage with weapons than the Infiltrator. Preferrably by buffing the other classes, instead of nerfing the infiltrator, and buffing the enemies to the point where they are as annoying as the Geth.

Soldiers are a "weapon" class, and yet Adrenaline Rush increases the damage of their grenade powers. Do they need a nerf too?

 No, please for the love of all that is sweet and holy no. Although honestly I don't see how the other factions could get as annoying since they don't have glitchy as hell Geth Hunters running around <_<<_<

[billy the squid]

nicethugbert wrote...

You guys are missing the point.

TC is UNFAIR because it DUMPS AGGRO ON YOUR TEAM. Therefore, non-infiltrators need better DEFENCE to deal with the eztra aggro.

It's called shield regen. Mine doesn't. You also have the shield gear, consumables, Adrenaline rush bonuses for damage or shields, barriers, rage for Krogans, tech armour. Geth shield turret, salarian decoy. There's quite a few powers to use that can deal with the extra agro.
 
And a good infiltrator will line up a shot, cloak, fire, deacaivate cloak and pick a next target. It's all about target priority. My job is to hit the hard targets that will stamp on the rest of the team before they get close.

I get great burts DPS and dump agro on the team. In trade off I'm expected to do the objectives, revive people when I can and kill the big thing that is making it's way to the team. Or out flank and hit from the behind. If the team has trouble with agro then a more effective position is the issue, or the team remains mobile. In which case the agro is not so much an issue as the movement reduces the issue of being outflanked and surrounded.

[zenrockoutkast]

 Right, because warp, reave, adrenaline rush, marskman, prox mine, grenades, biotic explosions, lash, smash, stasis, charge, energy drain, flamer, bloodlust, blade armor, overload, turrets, drones, and carnage are all such sucky powers compared to TC, right?  

[CmnDwnWrkn]

zenrockoutkast wrote...

 Right, because warp, reave, adrenaline rush, marskman, prox mine, grenades, biotic explosions, lash, smash, stasis, charge, energy drain, flamer, bloodlust, blade armor, overload, turrets, drones, and carnage are all such sucky powers compared to TC, right?  

None of these allows you to simultaneously inflict as much damage on enemies and avoid as much damage from enemies, as TC.  Not even close.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 13 juin 2012 - 07:56 .

[zenrockoutkast]

ITT: People who suck at other classes ask for infiltrators to be nerfed. I love playing Infiltrators, it's probably my best class. I also use tech armor on every single one of my Sentinels and I seem to be far more adept at it than most people complaining about Sentinels in this thread. If you can't make a class work then just leave it alone, don't go around complaining that another class is too overpowered.

[Ashen One]

Pitznik wrote...

Lets just say I disagree on TA explosion having any value aside from killing husks/swarmers/fun. Incinerate isn't so great either, and Fire Explosions are difficult to setup reliably.

That's your opinion. Personally, I think the ability to hold off multiple Geth Hunters from behind a wall during a wave 10 hack is pretty useful, but each to his own.

Pitznik wrote...
So Infiltrators by being Combat/Tech get access to Combat powers, Tech powers and somehow also they are ok with having weapon damage boosts, but Sentinels being Tech/Biotic get access to Tech powers, Biotic powers but somehow are not ok with weapon damage boosts, despite being able to equip exactly the same weapons and having exactly the same passive weapon and power related bonuses?

Again, being able to equip the same types of weapons as any other class doesn't make it intelligent. If I used your line of thinking, I could go post a thread asking for increased weapon damage bonuses for Asari Adepts using Widows just because they can equip them. They have similar passives to most other classes, and the weapon can be equippped, but obviously the Asari skillset is not meant for heavy weapons, as is true about adepts in general.

Pitznik wrote...
What is exactly so great about having Tech and Biotic powers together that justifies not having the right to get some weapon damage boosts? Seems to me like being Combat is the right to be better, no downsides but only advantages.

Not sure if serious...

The advantage is obviously having access to both Tech and Biotic powers, giving a Sentinel more utility than an Infiltrator, particularly better synergy with a team of other Biotic/Tech users. A power damage bonus makes more sense for a Sentinel because they all have 2 or 3 damaging powers, but all of the infiltrators besides the Salarian only have one. A Sentinel would get more benefit out of a power damage bonus, because they are power based classes, with, multiple damaging powers. An Infiltrator cannot rely on powers as a significant source of damage.

Pitznik wrote...
Also, how you came up with that typology anyway? When I look on human, drell or asari vanguard the word "combat" doesn't exactly comes to mind, since they have not a single combat power between them, yet to justify your theory that "only combat classes can get bonuses to weapon damage"

Don't misconstrue what I said. My point was that the weapon classes have abilities in their class powers that increase weapon damage because they are weapon classes. It make sense for Infiltrators, Soldiers, and to an extent, Vanguards to have power evolutions in their class powers (Charge, Cloak, Adrenaline Rush) that increase weapon damage because it's part of their class proficiency. However, a Drell Adept that gets increased weapon damage from Reave, or a Krogan Sentinel that gets increased weapon damage from Tech Armor would be pretty stupid. However, the existing power damage bonus that you can get from using Tech Armor is reasonable, because every class with Tech Armor has at least 2 other damaging powers in their skillset.

Pitznik wrote...
you are making them combat/biotic hybrid, even if nothing suggests that. Krogan Vanguard with his combat Carnage seems to be that exception you see in everything that doesn't fit your theory, and Vanguard class is just biotics. Biotics who can get weapon damage boost through use of Biotic Power! Oh no, and its a whole class, my beatiful theory is broken, can't label the whole class an exception!

Vanguards have always been a CQC combat/biotic hybrid, and if that wasn't the case in ME 3 then there would be no reason to give the Krogan Vanguard Carnage, a combat power. Carnage sure as hell isn't a racial power, like the Vorcha's flamethrower, which would explain the Vorcha Soldier having a tech ability.

Pitznik wrote...
About soldiers - no they do not need the nerf, it just shows that your theory about dividing classes between weapon users and power users is just silly, because all classes rely on both.

The point that you keep missing as that the weapon classes rely on weapons more though, therefore should have higher weapon damage bonuses than the classes that do not. classes that rely on powers more, and classes that have multiple damaging powers should be doing more damage with their powers than a class that relies more on weapons. It's more beneficial, and practical.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 13 juin 2012 - 08:01 .

[ElectroNeonPanda]

Ashen Earth wrote...

Javelin and a Claymore puts TC recharge at 24.50 seconds.

Yeah, that was the point at which I realised it's clearly pointless trying to hold an intelligent conversation with you when you'll clearly spew any idiocy in order to validate your argument.

[zenrockoutkast]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

zenrockoutkast wrote...

 Right, because warp, reave, adrenaline rush, marskman, prox mine, grenades, biotic explosions, lash, smash, stasis, charge, energy drain, flamer, bloodlust, blade armor, overload, turrets, drones, and carnage are all such sucky powers compared to TC, right?  

None of these allows you to simultaneously inflict as much damage on enemies and avoid as much damage from enemies, as TC.  Not even close.

For one, that's total crap.  I can walk right up to a ravager with my vorcha and flamer it to death without taking a single hit from it, meanwhile with infiltrators I'm usually pinned down by a ravager before I can get a decent shot in.  Grenades, are you kidding me?  I've played with people who could probably solo games using just grenades and their weapon.  Blade armor, you can run right up to enemies and one-punch them to death, if they happen to melee you then they get staggered.  I've seen Phoenix characters decimate entire groups of enemies in seconds.  Biotic charge can restore your shields to 100% and give you a damage boost at the same time.  Fully upgraded turrets can do tons of damage and draw aggro, not to mention give a shield booth on geth turrets.  I could go on and on.

The fact is that every class has its pros and cons.  Infiltrators can do tons of damage, but they have horrible defenses.  If an enemy closes in on them from behind or they get stuck in the middle of a group they're dead.  Infiltrators have to play smart, they have to choose their shots wisely and make them all count.  That is how the class is supposed to play, a nerf would completely kill their viability.

[Ashen One]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

zenrockoutkast wrote...

 Right, because warp, reave, adrenaline rush, marskman, prox mine, grenades, biotic explosions, lash, smash, stasis, charge, energy drain, flamer, bloodlust, blade armor, overload, turrets, drones, and carnage are all such sucky powers compared to TC, right?  

None of these allows you to simultaneously inflict as much damage on enemies and avoid as much damage from enemies, as TC.  Not even close.

Bloodlust allows you to outright ignore anything short of a boss unit when specced right. It also works properly when you're the only one left alive, so although it doesn't  allow you to avoid damage, it pretty much negates most of it.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 13 juin 2012 - 08:05 .

[Ashen One]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

Javelin and a Claymore puts TC recharge at 24.50 seconds.

Yeah, that was the point at which I realised it's clearly pointless trying to hold an intelligent conversation with you when you'll clearly spew any idiocy in order to validate your argument.

Except it's not really idiocy. That's the actual cooldown on a -200% TC.

If cooldowns were totally irrelevant like the majority of the idiots on this forum who don't play an infiltrator, but think they know about the class say, then I should be able to load up the two heaviest weapons in my arsenal no problem.

Modifié par Ashen Earth, 13 juin 2012 - 08:09 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

zenrockoutkast wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

zenrockoutkast wrote...

 Right, because warp, reave, adrenaline rush, marskman, prox mine, grenades, biotic explosions, lash, smash, stasis, charge, energy drain, flamer, bloodlust, blade armor, overload, turrets, drones, and carnage are all such sucky powers compared to TC, right?  

None of these allows you to simultaneously inflict as much damage on enemies and avoid as much damage from enemies, as TC.  Not even close.

For one, that's total crap.  I can walk right up to a ravager with my vorcha and flamer it to death without taking a single hit from it, meanwhile with infiltrators I'm usually pinned down by a ravager before I can get a decent shot in.  Grenades, are you kidding me?  I've played with people who could probably solo games using just grenades and their weapon.  Blade armor, you can run right up to enemies and one-punch them to death, if they happen to melee you then they get staggered.  I've seen Phoenix characters decimate entire groups of enemies in seconds.  Biotic charge can restore your shields to 100% and give you a damage boost at the same time.  Fully upgraded turrets can do tons of damage and draw aggro, not to mention give a shield booth on geth turrets.  I could go on and on.

The fact is that every class has its pros and cons.  Infiltrators can do tons of damage, but they have horrible defenses.  If an enemy closes in on them from behind or they get stuck in the middle of a group they're dead.  Infiltrators have to play smart, they have to choose their shots wisely and make them all count.  That is how the class is supposed to play, a nerf would completely kill their viability.

Please stop speaking to us as if we've never played infiltrator before.  I don't play infiltrator because I don't like hiding cloaked far away from harm like a coward while my teammates get in close and fight.  It just doesn't seem right to me.

The times I've played Infiltrator, usually with a Mantis, I've done at least as much damage as with other classes WHILE AT THE SAME TIME taking significantly less damage myself.

I know how it works, and there is no class that can deal damage, while avoid being dealt damage, anything like an Infiltrator.  It's massively OP, even with weak sniper rifles.